Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[Fransurrey]

Is Sylvia Loch still alive? If not she must be spinning in her grave. I remember seeing her years ago at a demo and she was pretty despairing of the way competition dressage was going even then.

In the 90s I remember reading a horse mag at uni and really not liking the dressage pictures in it. A room-mate had a horse and happened to be next to me, so I showed her and said how unnatural the horse looked. She chewed my ear off! Never spoke to her about horses again after that, but watching the Everdale clip was depressingly familiar. Depressing because none of it surprised me in the slightest.

 

[onemoretime]

When I was younger I used to send my young horses to a professional trainer to break for me. He told me that he used to break for a very well known Olympic rider who lived in Kent and that she insisted that the 3year olds worn a roller and tight side reins all day whilst confined in the stable in order to develop their necks!! He used to put the side reins on when he knew they were coming and take them off as soon as they went. This was back in the 70's so its been going on for a long time.

 

[equinerebel]

I briefly worked for a show jumper who kept their horses tied in side reins in the stable. I also worked for a dressage rider who insisted on an iron hard contact at all times. I haven’t worked for any pro yards since and won’t again. They were both heartbreaking

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Agree with a lot of what is being said about dressage. I wrote for BD for the first time last week and although I don't know enough about it to comment on the degree of marks lost for the comments I wrote (I also couldn't see a lot of the tests as I was writing), I certainly wrote about tension, BTV, steadiness of contact, balance, and suppleness. I don't understand how that can be then at the supposed very top of the sport there's...that.

Also feel SJ seems to get off quite lightly in these discussions about horse welfare in competition. I was equally as unhappy about some of the dressage stuff from London International as I was with the absolute contraptions being used in the top level SJ, and certainly not with light hands!

 

[Time for Tea]

These stories of abuse and exploitation are just dreadful. Here is a little anecdote for you. Some years ago now. I have a friend who wanted to take up dressage. He had no major ambitions, he just thought it would be nice and interesting and part of his learning curve and journey with horses. He bought a warmblood from a very posh yard somewhere in Surrey, horses all arched necks, foaming mouths, flying legs, backdrop of statues and Grecian urns dotted about prolifically. They said the horse had reached his limit, but would do nicely for what my friend wanted. So the horse came down to the New Forest and my friend began to hack him out and get him used to his new life etc. He was beautifully behaved and all went well. Finally, after a month or so, my friend decided it was time to start his dressage journey, and hacked over to a local trainer. They marched onto the yard, turned right from which point you could see the arena, and the warm blood stood right up, pretty near vertical. The trainer said he would get him in the arena and ride him himself to start with. My friend said no thanks. It didn’t matter. He would give up his dressage ideas and return to hacking, no problem. That is what he did, and there was never any further trouble with the horse.

 

[Hallo2012]

I had a watershed moment when my GP level trainer said to never give Lottie an inch of release saying she won't stay consistent unless you keep her in a frame (with a LOT of pressure) every moment and ativly ride every stride. Essentially be on her case every second of every session with no praise or relaease. Ever. This trainer was winning at Inter-1 at Eurpopeans.

theres no inter 1 at Europeans?

so whatever she told you she was winning is BS.........

 

[Ample Prosecco]

theres no inter 1 at Europeans?

so whatever she told you she was winning is BS.........

I must have got the wrong class - I've seen the FB posts of her on the podium at the Europeans though.

 

[catkin]

I trained weekly for a fair while with a List 1 dressage judge

She told me ‘Whatever he offers you will not be enough, always ask for more’.

That was a watershed moment - how to sicken a horse. Much better to praise a horse who attempts what you ask it do, and then you quietly work away at improving it.

By ‘praising’ I mean perhaps a neck scratch and maybe a walk on a long rein, then back to work. Not constantly hammering round without a break demanding that the horse does what I insist.

Good grief! How things have changed.

Im with you TP - was drummed into me as a child that you never get greedy with your pony, and you always thank them!!!!!!

 

[Fellewell]

But the rider was named in the thread title…. Seems a bit odd for the forum to possibly have rules about naming judges. If an FEI judge it’s is in the public domain. I wouldn’t know L Fry if she stood in front of me. But I do know she is young, and is in essence vulnerable to these critiques. Whereas the judge is likely to have a lot of years under their belt and they hold far more responsibility for what is happening at higher levels of dressage….. I love the purpose of dressage. I feel those in authority of the discipline should feel the heat.

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure that challenging the ground jury on the strength of one test is the way to go here. If people feel strongly enough they should strive to change the system from within. They could affiliate and train to become qualified to judge at this level. As to naming her, I wonder if riders from other countries are subjected to the relentless flak that ours seem to get? I bet she's glad she's based in the Netherlands.

 

[tristars]

You are right, Clodagh. In the dim & distant past when I had a sound horse in work, I stopped doing lessons with two separate trainers who were competing at a very high level as they wanted me to ride in a way that made me uncomfortable, i.e. over-harsh, bullying. I wanted my horse to enjoy what we were doing & not be bullied & uncomfortable. Think mega tight noseband, lots of spur, too much hand...

but hang on a minute, spurs are used for `refinement`

 

[Cortez]

but hang on a minute, spurs are used for `refinement`

They should be used for that, yes. And when properly used, on a well trained horse they are a great aid in increasing communication for things like tempi changes and the transitions. Don't blame the tool for the operator's incompetence, same thing with the double bridle.

 

[tristars]

I trained weekly for a fair while with a List 1 dressage judge

She told me ‘Whatever he offers you will not be enough, always ask for more’.

That was a watershed moment - how to sicken a horse. Much better to praise a horse who attempts what you ask it do, and then you quietly work away at improving it.

By ‘praising’ I mean perhaps a neck scratch and maybe a walk on a long rein, then back to work. Not constantly hammering round without a break demanding that the horse does what I insist.

they say `ask for a lot be content with a little`

that last para about hammering round is what i cannot stand to see, well said.

for me the walk on a long rein is an indicator of a horse using its back, how far it reaches forwards and down

 

[Snow Falcon]

I went to a clinic with a rising dressage trainer. I was told to tighten the drop noseband I was using (kept bit stable), shorten my reins and use my leg more, also consider using spurs.

Nope, nope and nope. The mare needed freedom to use hindquarters. I only went once! I then found an amazing lady. She was just what we wanted to help us move forward.

Just seeing the tension in modern dressage makes me feel so despondent and sad for the horse.

 

[Cortez]

I am adamantly and vehemently against the direction that modern dressage has taken and stopped competing almost 20 years ago because I could see the way it was going and wasn't prepared to do that to horses just to win competitions. I'm currently in Spain where the original principles are still upheld in an unbroken line from the 16th/17th centuries. The horses here are bred and made for the job, trained VERY differently from the basically Dutch and German systems currently in favour, and a pure delight to see and ride.

 

[pistolpete]

How are we going to make the change? Agree the Spanish/Iberian horses look much more equipped for the job and seem generally less tail swishy and gnashy mouthed. Totally different. Would much rather watch them!

 

[shortstuff99]

theres no inter 1 at Europeans?

so whatever she told you she was winning is BS.........

Could potentially be MCI Europeans if she ride Iberian horses that has an Inter 1 level.

 

[shortstuff99]

I am adamantly and vehemently against the direction that modern dressage has taken and stopped competing almost 20 years ago because I could see the way it was going and wasn't prepared to do that to horses just to win competitions. I'm currently in Spain where the original principles are still upheld in an unbroken line from the 16th/17th centuries. The horses here are bred and made for the job, trained VERY differently from the basically Dutch and German systems currently in favour, and a pure delight to see and ride.

I love my Iberian horses and go there to ride etc but they have as many problems training as we do. Scars all over noses from serratas, watching horses with sides covered in blood from the Vaquera stirrups at SICAB etc.

They also have some brilliant riding and training.

 

[daffy44]

I find it so sad that so many of you have encountered such awful training/trainers, I feel extremely fortunate to have never experienced the things described. Training doesnt have to be that way, its perfectly possible to train to the high levels with empathy in a horse friendly way. My GP horse will happily do all the GP work in a headcollar with no whip and no spurs.

 

[Time for Tea]

I find it so sad that so many of you have encountered such awful training/trainers, I feel extremely fortunate to have never experienced the things described. Training doesnt have to be that way, its perfectly possible to train to the high levels with empathy in a horse friendly way. My GP horse will happily do all the GP work in a headcollar with no whip and no spurs.

How magical. I wish I could do that.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Could potentially be MCI Europeans if she ride Iberian horses that has an Inter 1 level.

Yes! It was the MCI European Championships in Paris.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

She has 3 top level horses. Rode the GP at Somerford. I don;t know much about different competitions. And I don't know what breed her horses are. She rides beautifully, her horses are lovely, and she is by no means a harsh trainer. But that mindset of ride every stride and never/rarely release is there.

 

[catembi]

but hang on a minute, spurs are used for `refinement`

Yes, that's exactly what I meant! Spurs should be used for refinement and not to punish!

 

[Goldenstar]

When I was younger I used to send my young horses to a professional trainer to break for me. He told me that he used to break for a very well known Olympic rider who lived in Kent and that she insisted that the 3year olds worn a roller and tight side reins all day whilst confined in the stable in order to develop their necks!! He used to put the side reins on when he knew they were coming and take them off as soon as they went. This was back in the 70's so its been going on for a long time.

That’s a very very old practice not exclusively to do with dressage .

 

[Old school]

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure that challenging the ground jury on the strength of one test is the way to go here. If people feel strongly enough they should strive to change the system from within. They could affiliate and train to become qualified to judge at this level. As to naming her, I wonder if riders from other countries are subjected to the relentless flak that ours seem to get? I bet she's glad she's based in the Netherlands.

My point was why name the rider, when they are not responsible for the direction that dressage is taking. Your point about training to become a judge is somewhat a long fingered approach. Grass root riders attending their regional AGM and voice their concern/disapproval is the most immediate step.
I understand those here who have left the discipline due to the direction it is/ has taken. I can empathise with that approach, but staying involved and being a voice inside the framework would be my option. Though not much of voice, but if enough of us express our dismay to the authority involved, then maybe we can bring change.

I doubt we will be successful though, as my belief is that the breeding powerhouses on the continent are the people really in charge of the current situation.

 

[dorsetladette]

That’s a very very old practice not exclusively to do with dressage .

Agree. Lots of cute little lead rein ponies spend their life's stuck in side reins.

 

[pistolpete]

Is there any way we can lobby BD?

 

[Cortez]

I love my Iberian horses and go there to ride etc but they have as many problems training as we do. Scars all over noses from serratas, watching horses with sides covered in blood from the Vaquera stirrups at SICAB etc.

They also have some brilliant riding and training.

Well, no they don't have as many problems. There are bad riders and trainers of course, everywhere has those, but the general standard of riding is much, much better overall. They have proper professional training programs for trainers for a start, and I've been going to SICAB for 20 years and have seen maybe 2 horses really badly ridden there, (anyone can enter, but you have to qualify). I also haven't seen a serraton used without a cover for years, although you do still see the odd horse with a scar, it's pretty rare. Horse training in Spain is not fluffy bunny territory, but it is not in general cruel.

 

[shortstuff99]

Well, no they don't have as many problems. There are bad riders and trainers of course, everywhere has those, but the general standard of riding is much, much better overall. They have proper professional training programs for trainers for a start, and I've been going to SICAB for 20 years and have seen maybe 2 horses really badly ridden there, (anyone can enter, but you have to qualify). I also haven't seen a serraton used without a cover for years, although you do still see the odd horse with a scar, it's pretty rare. Horse training in Spain is not fluffy bunny territory, but it is not in general cruel.

Okay but I have also seen someone punch a horse straight in the head and seen the doping get so bad that they now test all the time at SICAB (and they still fail, even Escalera had a title taken from them last year for failing doping).

 

[Cortez]

Okay but I have also seen someone punch a horse straight in the head and seen the doping get so bad that they now test all the time at SICAB (and they still fail, even Escalera had a title taken from them last year for failing doping).

Same. I've seen all that and more in other countries (including the UK); not sure what that has to do with the point that Spain is the best place to go if you want to see high level dressage done better than in most modern dressage competitions.

 

[shanti]

I am adamantly and vehemently against the direction that modern dressage has taken and stopped competing almost 20 years ago because I could see the way it was going and wasn't prepared to do that to horses just to win competitions. I'm currently in Spain where the original principles are still upheld in an unbroken line from the 16th/17th centuries. The horses here are bred and made for the job, trained VERY differently from the basically Dutch and German systems currently in favour, and a pure delight to see and ride.

My current instructor trained in Spain and if her principals and standards are anything to go by, I completely agree with you regarding this. I was ready to stop dressage altogether due to current standards, but, when I found my instructor and watched her work and ride, I had some faith restored, it's a totally different experience really.
Incidentally, a large portion of the horse community in the area have completely shunned her and talk badly about her to anyone who will listen, calling her a fluffy bunny and saying she is a hopeless trainer and rider because she doesn't compete anymore, which is especially hilarious they all ride their horses strapped down within an inch of their lives and she can complete a full test bareback in a rope halter on her self trained 8yo.

I used to love dressage when I was young and loved watching it whenever I could, now, if it comes on T.V I turn the channel straight away