Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[Archangel]

Horrible. The hours and hours that must go into producing that and the horse has to endure it all.

 

[sbloom]

If a horse is falling over its front legs, and so many horses are, even at the top level, then there's going to be an effect on the mouth, the rider leaning back etc. If only balance was at the core of everything dressage, that our horses looked like they were pinging UP in front....of course balance used to be the central tenet, correct balance led to harmony and purity of gaits. My how we forget.

 

[cauda equina]

He's so scrunched up
Even when he's on a loose rein after the test he doesn't relax and stretch

 

[Burnerbee]

Seen 2 minutes of it. That’s quite enough.

Horse lovers, for ultimately that‘s the audience surely, have to ask, what are we trying to achieve? The horse that’s the most compromised and uncomfortable looking? Surely not. But that’s what it looks like.

I’ve never understood the point of anything above basic dressage (that basically demonstrates you have control of a horse, fine). The ‘sport’, when performed like this at least, just seems so confused…. the horse has to be bouncy? Yes, ever more bouncy. The horse has to also look a bit robotic? Yes, definitely robotic. The rider needs to look stiff and uncompromising? And the whole thing has to have an air of sadness? Oh absolutely.

What?? That’s not what loving horses should be about and I dread to think where it’s going. Poor horses.

Edit to say: and don’t get me started (oops, I’ve started) on the competition dressage studs - I saw one recently (not in person) and I‘m sure I’m the last one to find out, but barn after barn each with 20 ish six month olds, all housed together, indoors, essentially being hothoused until they sell for squillions and become the next generation of poor sods being frogmarched around an arena. The conditions look nice, but is that what horses would choose? It’s money making, pure money making.

 

[NinjaPony]

IMO the ‘point’ of dressage is really Classical Dressage. It’s the lightness, connection and fingertip control of a horse working over its back into a light supple contact, performing gymnastic movements in a regular rhythm with a soft tail and neck.

That is what we should be rewarding. There are riders who strive for this; look at Jessica von Bredel, or Helen Langhanenberg, or Ingrid Klimke. Some of the riders at Olympia this year rode like that.

The issue is around judging; until we start harshly marking tension and stress we will continue to see stressed horses rewarded with higher marks.

I picked up a copy of Sylvia Loch’s classical dressage book a year or so ago and it’s what I go back to, particularly now I’ve started riding Spanish horses. It’s dated but the principles make sense to me.

 

[Oneday]

I struggle with the trot in modern competitions it never looks like a trot to me, more different types of passage. I always believed a hovering trot was incorrect.

I loved watching dressage when I was younger I remember going to YRC to see the Bartles, loved Jane's freestyles on Pinocchio. They were always fun and he seemed to be really enjoying them, younger members who don't remember him have a look on You Tube.

Watched some other test from that era as well and extended trot was extended trot powerful and ground covering not waving front legs around ears.

 

[Muddywellies]

I don’t know enough to comment about the test, but this would be bad enough if it were an Area Festival. The fact this has been judged as the best in the world is pretty astounding. If this is what people should aspire to be, then the sport is doomed.

I was competing locally recently (affilliated) and was crucified by the judge for being BTV. That was medium. So I've no idea why the judging seems to be so awry at the highest level. Mind boggling.

 

[lizziebell]

I was competing locally recently (affilliated) and was crucified by the judge for being BTV. That was medium. So I've no idea why the judging seems to be so awry at the highest level. Mind boggling.

Agree. Everyday BD judging in the uk does not support what we are seeing at the top international FEI level. I much prefer to watch our BD National Championships.

 

[ycbm]

I was competing locally recently (affilliated) and was crucified by the judge for being BTV. That was medium. So I've no idea why the judging seems to be so awry at the highest level. Mind boggling.

It's almost as if they aren't looking at anything much but the elevation and the leg action, but they're not even looking at that properly because the piaffes and passages so often have a pause in the middle of the arc of the foot (especially the hinds), or even a dip and rise again, which don't seem to be marked down either.

 

[Ambers Echo]

When I was writing at Somerford for the Grand Prix class, the judge I was with did mark tension down and was verbally pretty critical of it. I don't understand how a test like that was viewed positively. It can't be right that everything you learn about suppleness, connection, harmony, relaxation and freedom of paces, has to be abandoned (as opposed to improved and refined) as you get higher and higher in the sport.

There seems to is a weird tendency in all judging to reward increasingly extreme versions of what is deemed 'correct' till deformed dogs and obese cobs, and miserable tense horses win at the highest levels.

Judging in general meeds a radical overhaul across a lot of disciplines, I think.

 

[dorsetladette]

Youngsters and low levels are looking up to that. That is just awful. Youngsters need positive role models to look up too.

 

[Old school]

If we want to support for real change, then use the Judges names on these types of posts. Is Lottie Fry a young rider who has been shoe horned into fitting the FEI judge’s preferences? Just a thought…. call out the real perpetrators behind this awful scenario. We throw criticism at the riders, but they are the players, not the directors and producers.

 

[ycbm]

If we want to support for real change, then use the Judges names on these types of posts. Is Lottie Fry a young rider who has been shoe horned into fitting the FEI judge’s preferences? Just a thought…. call out the real perpetrators behind this awful scenario. We throw criticism at the riders, but they are the players, not the directors and producers.

I don't know the judges names or much care about who they are. They are supported by the FEI. I expect the FEI to sanction them if they've got it wrong, but they don't, so we can assume it's approved at the highest level.

Nobody forces riders to ride that way, they choose to do it because it's what will win them rosettes and medals.

I don't think any of us on this thread have ever ridden at that level but we can see it's not right for the horse. Anyone looking back at videos of their own tests could also see that it's not right if they opened their eyes and read/viewed a bit more widely than they seem to.

I don't know how many ticks on the pain ethogram that horse scores, plenty, but Philippe Karl wrote a book "The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" 16 years ago. It was that book that I first saw the "double dip" passage described in. And things have got a lot worse since then.
.

 

[Steerpike]

From my experience at FEI Endurance you can look up the schedule on the FEI site which will list all the judges, stewards,vets ect

 

[Ambers Echo]

The test sheet and judges names are on Dressage Hub on Youtube should anyone care to look them up. I am not sure what the rules on this forum are about naming people, so I am not sharing the link.

Everdale's tongue was out right in front of the judge at M, who still awarded an 8 for that move.

 

[shortstuff99]

The test sheet and judges names are on Dressage Hub on Youtube should anyone care to look them up. I am not sure what the rules on this forum are about naming people, so I am not sharing the link.

Everdale's tongue was out right in front of the judge at M, who still awarded an 8 for that move.

Ahhh Dressage Hub. Is she still as horrible as ever?

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don’t know. I don’t follow it. I just saw the test sheet.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I struggle with the trot in modern competitions it never looks like a trot to me, more different types of passage. I always believed a hovering trot was incorrect.

I loved watching dressage when I was younger I remember going to YRC to see the Bartles, loved Jane's freestyles on Pinocchio. They were always fun and he seemed to be really enjoying them, younger members who don't remember him have a look on You Tube.

Watched some other test from that era as well and extended trot was extended trot powerful and ground covering not waving front legs around ears.

I have just started watching Jane's freestyle on Youtube and I caught myself thinking 'wow, what incredible changes' when actually, they are just correct, but I am so used to seeing swiging upper bodies and lower legs thrown back and forward in modern dressage, that your basic, correct change stood out...

 

[Old school]

The test sheet and judges names are on Dressage Hub on Youtube should anyone care to look them up. I am not sure what the rules on this forum are about naming people, so I am not sharing the link.

Everdale's tongue was out right in front of the judge at M, who still awarded an 8 for that move.

But the rider was named in the thread title…. Seems a bit odd for the forum to possibly have rules about naming judges. If an FEI judge it’s is in the public domain. I wouldn’t know L Fry if she stood in front of me. But I do know she is young, and is in essence vulnerable to these critiques. Whereas the judge is likely to have a lot of years under their belt and they hold far more responsibility for what is happening at higher levels of dressage….. I love the purpose of dressage. I feel those in authority of the discipline should feel the heat.

 

[Oneday]

I have written for a judge who was horrified by the way the horse was being ridden, but had to mark the movements, did mark the rider accordingly. Maybe use collective marks for submission and riding as a multiplier, might help improve training and riding if judges brave enough to heavily penalise bad riding and unhappy horses.

 

[maisie06]

As title really, dont know if I missed a thread on this.
If this is a winning test I despair. Grand Prix FEI 6th leg at Mechelen.
Behind the vertical 90% of the time, blue lolling tongue, mouth grinding and snapping, incredible tension, pained expression on the horses face, this is unwatchable.
WHY are the judges rewarding this horror show??

I cannot watch dressage or showing - both are awful with tense horses looking miserable, years ago I couldn't imagine having a horse and not riding/competing these days I;m wondering if riding horses is ethical at all...

 

[stormox]

British Dressage is at the highest level it has ever been. We have a good chance of gold medals at the next Olympics.
People will do whatever it takes to represent their country at the top level.

 

[MagicMelon]

Seen 2 minutes of it. That’s quite enough.

Horse lovers, for ultimately that‘s the audience surely, have to ask, what are we trying to achieve? The horse that’s the most compromised and uncomfortable looking? Surely not. But that’s what it looks like.

I’ve never understood the point of anything above basic dressage (that basically demonstrates you have control of a horse, fine). The ‘sport’, when performed like this at least, just seems so confused…. the horse has to be bouncy? Yes, ever more bouncy. The horse has to also look a bit robotic? Yes, definitely robotic. The rider needs to look stiff and uncompromising? And the whole thing has to have an air of sadness? Oh absolutely.

What?? That’s not what loving horses should be about and I dread to think where it’s going. Poor horses.

Edit to say: and don’t get me started (oops, I’ve started) on the competition dressage studs - I saw one recently (not in person) and I‘m sure I’m the last one to find out, but barn after barn each with 20 ish six month olds, all housed together, indoors, essentially being hothoused until they sell for squillions and become the next generation of poor sods being frogmarched around an arena. The conditions look nice, but is that what horses would choose? It’s money making, pure money making.

Yeah have to say, I much prefer eventing dressage. Watch any top level eventing test and the horses are so much happier looking, they're forward and just look like its no issue doing it. Whereas pure dressage horses looks extremely hyped up, nervous, very tense - it just doesnt look nice

 

[Tiddlypom]

If the judges marked these abominations down, as they should do, it would stop.

Same as with top level showing - if the judges stopped placing obese horses then competitors would soon stop presenting obese horses for judging.

 

[Equi]

I’ll preface this by saying I couldn’t ride one leg of everdale. But I didn’t enjoy his head at all.

Reminds me of reading the black beauty “bearing rein” chapters.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

I don't know how many ticks on the pain ethogram that horse scores, plenty, but Philippe Karl wrote a book "The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" 16 years ago. It was that book that I first saw the "double dip" passage described in. And things have got a lot worse since then.
.

Please can you explain the double dip passage?

Yeah have to say, I much prefer eventing dressage. Watch any top level eventing test and the horses are so much happier looking, they're forward and just look like its no issue doing it. Whereas pure dressage horses looks extremely hyped up, nervous, very tense - it just doesnt look nice

I always say that. Eventing dressage is much less cringey to watch. Horses are not as tense, BTV , evading etc. I am in the twilight years of my eventing/jumping career and considering joining BD but as a Grassroots rider it doesn't seem right to become a member when I can't watch the top level. It is is not inspirational to watch unlike showjumping or eventing. .

 

[CanteringCarrot]

British Dressage is at the highest level it has ever been. We have a good chance of gold medals at the next Olympics.
People will do whatever it takes to represent their country at the top level.

That's one of the issues in respect to involving animals in sports. People will do whatever it takes, which means the welfare of the animal is not a top priority. Sure, keeping the animal sound is a priority, so that you can have a chance at that win, but that's about it.

If it takes blue tongues, tense horses, harsh riding, and God knows what behind the scenes, people will do it to get to the top. Involving animals in competitive sport can be a slippery slope, IMO.

 

[ycbm]

Please can you explain the double dip passage?

In pure classical passage, Karl explains that the foot should make an uninterrupted arc from the ground, up, over, and down again.

In modern dressage there is almost always a hesitation at the top of the arc, and sometimes the foot drops a little and is brought back up again before it continues the arc and is placed back on the floor.

You can see the dip in piaffe too.
.

 

[ester]

I've watched a lot of tense gobby 5* eventing tests albeit those aren't the ones that end up in the lead. .

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

In pure classical passage, Karl explains that the foot should make an uninterrupted arc from the ground, up, over, and down again.

In modern dressage there is almost always a hesitation at the top of the arc, and sometimes the foot drops a little and is brought back up again before it continues the arc and is placed back on the floor.

You can see the dip in piaffe too.
.

Yes, of course, I've always see ones like this. It looks so laboured and unnatural. The dangling foot is very odd. These are supposed to be movements a horse would do in a field. Loose horses in a paddock do passage and piaffe but never like that