Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[NinjaPony]

Some horses can’t cope with the pressure of competing and shouldn’t be forced to despite their talent, and those horses certainly shouldn’t be bred from! Somewhere temperament has got lost in some of these warmblood lines. Just because a pro can ride through the tension in a way that an amateur can’t, doesn’t mean they should!

I rode a lovely talented warmblood at a well known equestrian centre who was there because mentally he couldn’t cope with the pressures of competition. He was perfectly happy ridden at a lower level as long as you didn’t push too much and didn’t use a whip. If we want to continue riding horses at this highest of levels, we need to be much more selective about the temperament of horse chosen, rather than only the talent.

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm currently watching the dressage world cup from Amsterdam and I'm also surprised by the amount of fat GP dressage horses

 

[alexomahony]

Keeping a horse in an area it can't even walk about in freely ranks way above being in a small field or even a big shared barn on the " unnatural" scale.




If man had never sat on a horse and somebody now suggested doing that, I think it would be considered a bad idea.
.

Especially after all the posts on SEU on Facebook haha

 

[Fellewell]

I think there is evidence based information but it doesn't get the coverage it needs and, often when it's seen, it's dismissed. The EPONA TV Facebook page is great and often highlights issues in competition horses. They had a link to a group - can't remember the name - which had basically gone through a winning Grand prix dressage test frame by frame and showed how the horse wasn't showing the correct movements but was still scoring 8+. Photographs showing stressed, unhappy horses are dismissed as ' a moment in time'. The FEI pays lip service to horse welfare - if they really cared they would scrap the current scoring system and introduce one which rewarded riders who can sit on a horse without looking like they're pushing an elephant up a mountain.

Thanks for the link I will have a look.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the dressage marking. It's ironic that dressage owes its existence to a training system devised to make whatever work a horse was required to do a lot easier for him and the carrying of a rider a lot more comfortable for him. So it's the singer not the song IMO. The scales of training have not changed but there will always be horses who are not capable of the level of collection required at the upper levels and that's a huge debate.

 

[TheMule]

She has just won in Amsterdam on 77.76% with another test that looked very tense and short in the neck throughout.

 

[SEL]

I'm currently watching the dressage world cup from Amsterdam and I'm also surprised by the amount of fat GP dressage horses

Well that makes me feel better about an ever expanding small pony! Now she just needs to learn to piaffe

 

[Time for Tea]

I think the diffrence between use and other animals is we have modified our behavoir, out of experience and choice, but we still have the same basic reactions to fear and stress, if you have a young baby some of its reactions are instinct,https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/reflexes-5-instincts-your-baby-is-born-with/

We habituate animals, but really the most basic instincts are always there, there may be certain breed variations, but stress an animal and it will resort to instinct. I have yet to hear of a breed of feral horses that live in a cave, and even when they lie down in the open they usually have a watcher on point.

We may think we have changed as humans, but we are very close to early homo sapians, and I think perhaps the only difference our abilty to pass information on. You learn a new tecnology, and there is no more incentive to spread it, where as once it fear of invasion and the acquiring of technology could give your invader the advantage.

I love a The History of the World in a 100 Objects, the episode about the banknote, explains the problems we still have today.

BBC Radio 4 - A History of the World in 100 Objects, The Threshold of the Modern World (1375-1550 AD), Ming banknote

Neil MacGregor with a 14th century bank note - from Ming Dynasty China.

www.bbc.co.uk

Whilst generally agreeing with your comment here, I would like to point out that Prezhewalski horses have been observed sheltering in deserted buildings in Chernobyl, so they will choose enclosed shelter

 

[tristars]

By whom?

i think its on one of her CRC pages

 

[Dave's Mam]

Well that makes me feel better about an ever expanding small pony! Now she just needs to learn to piaffe

Dave too!

 

[Orangehorse]

Sorry no. I have one of his books called "the art of taming horses" dated 1858.

The book I read was more recent than that as there were pictures of the author riding in the Olympic Games.

 

[angel7]

Watched the latest test. Thought it was less awful than the previous one, the mouth was less resistant and pained with less snapping, and I thought I saw a longer rein and even slack in the reins in some movements. Hate the curved inward hands. Felt the rhythm in the passage and canter pirouettes was poor, mechanical and lacking expression.
Marking was much less than previous test, hmm.
At least the thread has been interesting...

 

[little_critter]

Watched the latest test. Thought it was less awful than the previous one, the mouth was less resistant and pained with less snapping, and I thought I saw a longer rein and even slack in the reins in some movements. Hate the curved inward hands. Felt the rhythm in the passage and canter pirouettes was poor, mechanical and lacking expression.
Marking was much less than previous test, hmm.
At least the thread has been interesting...

That’s a shame then. If the test looked less tense and the aids appeared slightly softer but the marks dropped then what’s to encourage LF to seek softness and harmony?
Or were there technical flaws that impacted the score too?

 

[NR88]

Dressage in Amsterdam – Yuck – The Horse Magazine

The tide is turning.

The FEI dressage social media accounts are full of comments expressing disgust and anger. There are comments from dressage riders and trainers alongside everyday horse owners.@fei_dressage_ @feidressageworldcup

Lottie Fry has restricted and edited comments on her social media. Only positive comments remain but that is not a true reflection of the general feeling towards her training and riding.

 

[eahotson]

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2...W20ON92WZWqPQ_aem_AXn3YoytcUm3MWpvV2dwXK2HC65

[QUOTE="NR88, post: 15471346, member: 153115"] EjDs8U2z4FbY6sbBxGT_-RGGZo3nGfrHJLBxScq8[/QUOTE]

The tide is turning.

The FEI dressage social media accounts are full of comments expressing disgust and anger. There are comments from dressage riders and trainers alongside everyday horse owners.@fei_dressage_ @feidressageworldcup

Lottie Fry has restricted and edited comments on her social media. Only positive comments remain but that is not a true reflection of the general feeling towards her training and riding.

That is good to hear.

 

[eahotson]

http://

That is good to hear.

Just read that article.Thanks for that.Excellent.

 

[ycbm]

Dressage in Amsterdam – Yuck – The Horse Magazine

The tide is turning.

The FEI dressage social media accounts are full of comments expressing disgust and anger. There are comments from dressage riders and trainers alongside everyday horse owners.@fei_dressage_ @feidressageworldcup

Lottie Fry has restricted and edited comments on her social media. Only positive comments remain but that is not a true reflection of the general feeling towards her training and riding.

Good article. I'm glad it mentioned the hollow back as I thought I was seeing that too. And the weaving piaffe.

Very good points about human rights at the next World Cup venue, too, in a sport where being gay is so heavily represented.
.

 

[Time for Tea]

Just read that article.Thanks for that.Excellent.

Ditto

 

[KEK]

The FEI turned comments off on a few posts, although I see they are on currently..

 

[eahotson]

The FEI turned comments off on a few posts, although I see they are on currently..

Thats interesting.

 

[angel7]

Great article, agree with all the salient points.
We must keep up the pressure and express our thoughts good and bad if we want to see changes in horse welfare at all levels of competition.

 

[Maddie Moo]

Here is the full test, interestingly they haven’t turned the comments off on YouTube and lots of people are criticising the judges, riding etc.

 

[splashgirl45]

This test isn’t as bad as the other one, he looks stiller in his mouth but is still overbent for all of the test apart from extended walk . The trouble with freestyle is if a movement is bad and they do it ok the next time the score for the bad one is ignored . The first halt was virtually nonexistent and he went backwards as well so it should have been given a 2 or 3 but the last halt was better and should have got maybe 7, IMO… so the first halt is discounted..

 

[nikicb]

This test isn’t as bad as the other one, he looks stiller in his mouth but is still overbent for all of the test apart from extended walk . The trouble with freestyle is if a movement is bad and they do it ok the next time the score for the bad one is ignored . The first halt was virtually nonexistent and he went backwards as well so it should have been given a 2 or 3 but the last halt was better and should have got maybe 7, IMO… so the first halt is discounted..

I agree with you that this test did look slightly better, but it's still not the type of dressage I aspire to.

Just to clarify on the scoring..... I have written for an FEI judge for music classes. Both the entry/first halt and final halt would be scored, but the scores would be averaged, rather than the first score being discounted.

This is from the score sheet.....

1. The entrance and halts at the beginning and the end of the test 4.0 4.0 5.0 2.0 4.0

So it's quite likely some did score very low for the first halt, but the final halt score was maybe a 7 or 8, or possibly even higher.

ETA I agree that in the case of a line of changes for example, if the first line is fluffed, but the second is done correctly, then the first line score would be discarded, but that's because there is only requirement for say one line of ones for example. That's why quite a few riders keep a 'spare' line of changes so that if their ones or twos go wrong, they can have another stab at them. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be over pedantic, I just wanted to point out the fact that the halt marks did reflect the fact that the first halt was not achieved.

ETA a day later! I have reread the score sheet, and now realise that there is another score at the end with exactly the same wording as above (ie including both scores), so the scores above are a reflection of only the entry and first halt. On the score sheets I have used, there is only one score for the entry/first halt/final halt combined, so I thought that was the case here. https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Grand Prix Freestyle 2022.pdf

 

[Goldenstar]

I would have been at the 2 for the first halt .

It’s a better test than the last one , I tried to find IW test on YouTube but could not it would have been interesting to compare .

 

[splashgirl45]

I agree with you that this test did look slightly better, but it's still not the type of dressage I aspire to.

Just to clarify on the scoring..... I have written for an FEI judge for music classes. Both the entry/first halt and final halt would be scored, but the scores would be averaged, rather than the first score being discounted.

This is from the score sheet.....

1. The entrance and halts at the beginning and the end of the test 4.0 4.0 5.0 2.0 4.0

So it's quite likely some did score very low for the first halt, but the final halt score was maybe a 7 or 8, or possibly even higher.

ETA I agree that in the case of a line of changes for example, if the first line is fluffed, but the second is done correctly, then the first line score would be discarded, but that's because there is only requirement for say one line of ones for example. That's why quite a few riders keep a 'spare' line of changes so that if their ones or twos go wrong, they can have another stab at them. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be over pedantic, I just wanted to point out the fact that the halt marks did reflect the fact that the first halt was not achieved.

I don’t mind being corrected, I also wrote for the higher classes but it was a VERY long time ago, I assumed from her mark that they had discounted the first halt, if I had done the movement like that, in effect not halting correctly and going backwards I would be very lucky to get a 1 or 2 or even a 0. How can a judge score that as a 4? It’s ridiculous and biased judging because Lottie is now a name. It’s a shame we are all criticising her because she is definitely not the only person who rides like this. CDJ now rides in a similar way and also , IMO, overmarked. Her riding seemed to change when she had Freestyle and I could never see that horses appeal , huge high trot in front not matched by the hinds … I feel I’m ranting a bit but I really don’t like the way dressage marking has gone

 

[nikicb]

Deleted as I have re read the score sheet and this comment was not correct.

 

[Caol Ila]

Cheers for posting the test that this thread has been about.

I'm with the rest of you. I don't understand the judging/scoring. Not at all. The horse looked tense throughout, his back was hollow, and his hindquarters trailing. Especially in the canter work. He was BTV too, obviously but I look more at the whole body since head position can vary a bit depending on conformation. And the whole body screamed tension. The front end did not seem connected to the hind end, especially in extensions, canter piris, and piaffe. Okay, I get it's a hot horse, an electric atmosphere, yadda yadda, and we've all had rides where our horses aren't at their best. Whether you're hacking in a country park or competing at international GP! But how on earth is that the winning ride? I haven't seen the other riders, but there must have been someone with a relaxed happy horse who was engaged and through.

I know people have left the forum because of the beating 'dressage,' in a general sense, often takes. There are sympathetic riders and trainers out there developing strong dance partners who are happy in their work. But 'dressage' -- or these judges -- doesn't help itself in this case by rewarding an extremely tense, choppy ride with high scores. Don't think anyone would have a major issue here if Lottie had scored fairly low and then been like, "Yeah, he was super wound up; we have work to do, et. al," and someone on a horse who was smooth and correct (but maybe less flamboyant) had won.

 

[shortstuff99]

Second place was Isabell Werth and her test is here

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[LEC]

Dressage in Amsterdam – Yuck – The Horse Magazine

The tide is turning.

The FEI dressage social media accounts are full of comments expressing disgust and anger. There are comments from dressage riders and trainers alongside everyday horse owners.@fei_dressage_ @feidressageworldcup

Lottie Fry has restricted and edited comments on her social media. Only positive comments remain but that is not a true reflection of the general feeling towards her training and riding.

Christopher Hector is a dinosaur but he has at least been around a long time and seen a lot. I will not forgive him for his backing of George Morris despite the facts which came out after. I appreciate they were friends and by all means continue your friendship if you wish privately but don’t publicly support a child sex groomer.

 

[DressageCob]

Second place was Isabell Werth and her test is here

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Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

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I much preferred that test. It didn't have knees everywhere, it was a much more of a workman type movement, although still very smart. The frame was more open and the overall impression more harmonious. It wasn't without its issues, but the overall picture I felt was more appealing.