Mind blown!!!!!!!!

[Cherryblossom]

So either he knows what he’s doing is wrong and is doing it anyway; putting his ego above Prince’s well-being. Or he doesn’t know what he’s doing is wrong, in which case he’s not knowledgable enough to do this rehab with you. If it goes wrong, you’re going to kick yourself that you’ve ignored the excellent advice you’ve had here- wouldn’t you rather try this with someone who has Prince’s best interests at heart?

 

[nutjob]

Knowing someone who had a pony land on her after rearing up and going over, I wouldn't think of riding a horse who's known evasion is to rear. She's in a wheel chair now.

I know 2 people (professionals) who have had a horse rear and go over on them. One had a broken spine, one I think was simply lucky. They don't always have to be pulled over by novice riders. I have had one who had to take a step back and who did then come down not go over, my hands were round his neck, not pulling but it could have gone badly none the less.

Most rehabs start introducing ridden work slowly and carefully, so ignoring whether you think it's a good idea to stand on a horse's back (which I don't) I am surprised that any vet or qualified physio would recommend introducing ridden work so quickly and I would be looking for a lighter rider to start with until KS is ruled out by a vet.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I know how hard it is to go against gut feeling and also how frustrating online advice feels when credible people in real life are giving you what seems like good info with the horse stood in front of them. And you also don’t have to justify your plans to anyone.

But please ask yourself and your trainer a few questions:

Any training plan needs to start from an understanding of where and why things went wrong. In your case we have classic back pain behaviour plus kissing spines visible on X-ray. So while other explanations are possible, any starting point should be on the very strong likelihood that pain was the reason. If you hear hooves think horses not zebras! So I’d be extremely wary of any minimising of the earlier issues.

So if the starting point is pain the question then is what is the plan and why? Any trainer should be able to give you a clear rationale for everything they are doing.

I can see why someone might stand ona horse or crawl under, sit sideways etc treating horse as a sofa IF the only issue is the rider lacks confidence in a totally safe horse. That’s not applicable here. So what did he do it for?

I can also see why someone might vault on, get on from the wrong side, scramble on from a wall being a bit clumsy etc to teach a horse not to overreact to ‘rider noise’ like an accidental toe poke as you step into the stirrup or catching the horses bum as you swing your leg over. Again not really applicable in this situation so what was he doing it for?

I personally cannot fathom either his riding behaviour or his message (just be firm) but he may have perfectly reasonable answers. I would definitely be asking those questions though.

TPO - the YO refused to ride Prince and described him as dangerous when he rested vertical with no warning.

 

[ycbm]

But I have 100% confidence in this trainer

??
.

 

[southerncomfort]

I went back and checked and the vet has asked to see him ridden at one assessment appointment. As far as I can tell he has not said that he can be brought back in to full work, just that he needs a rider on him for that day.

But also in the original post K said that she'd asked this chap to come and ride P to see if he behaved better for a confident rider.

Not my horse and not my business ? but personally I'd be waiting until the vet has assessed him and given the green light to crack on.

 

[Winters100]

Kiera I can see why you are having difficulty with this. Everyone here feels it is a bad idea, but clearly people who know both Prince and this 'pro' have advised that it is a good course of action.

I think enough has been said here about why most of us feel that, based upon the information available to us, it is the wrong course of action. I have not changed my opinion about this, and over my dead body would a 'pro' be allowed to do that to my horses, but he is your horse, I know that you have his best interests at heart, and you must do what you think best. The only one thing I would say is please please do not allow your daughter to ride Prince again until you can be really sure that it is safe for her. Horses with pain can react in any moment. I have seen a KS horse at our stable be ridden by a pro without problems, and 5 minutes later with his owner rear, slip, and come over onto his side trapping her leg and resulting in a bad break. She was lucky, it was just her leg.

My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince. In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling. Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.

 

[Lammy]

Sorry Keira but I really do not agree with the road you’re currently going down. It’s easy to be led down the garden path by someone you view as more knowledgable but you really have to stand firm and be the voice for your horse.

It happened to me recently but I stood firm and said no. A vet(!) wanted her event rider husband to get on my horse to try and “make him” canter as she didn’t believe me when I said there was a physical problem as to why he couldn’t maintain the canter. After she’d chased us around the school until he bronced me off I said no thanks and got another vet pretty quickly. We’ve now finally diagnosed him and it’s not good news poor lad. God forbid I’d let her tall, strong, husband on him and allowed my horse to be bullied into submitting.

The term “riding through” is really outdated and rarely is it ever truly the correct way forward. I’d have a serious rethink about letting this man continue working with Prince and actually listen and take onboard the advice others have given to you in this thread.

 

[Peglo]

My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince. In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling. Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.

this is what I was thinking. I have experience of 2 mares that napped. My TB and her field companion. TB didn’t like hacking and bunny hopped or threatened to buck to show her displeasure and the pony was just bad when we first got her with and half reared and turned on the spot. Both liked to rear full up when playing in the field but never ever reared right up when ridden or napping. Of course all horses are different but that reaction seems a bit much for napping or being unsure.
TBH I wouldn’t have this pro on my horses either. But I hope it all works out well for you.

 

[GrassChop]

I am sorry Keira. I know you only want what is best for Prince and you're trying your hardest but I am still unsure as to why a confident rider was required and recommended in this case. The vets know his behaviour and the xrays are already proof of why he is this way. It is highly unlikely that it is behavioural when there is significant evidence. I'd change vet and get a second opinion and please do not use that "pro" again.

 

[Boulty]

I would say proceed with extreme caution. It is entirely possible that the work you've been doing alongside your physio & chiro has improved his back to the extent that it isn't painful (as it is possible to rehab some horses with some degree of KS this way).

I've not met & don't know of the guy you're using. Generally I'd think it ill advised to stand on the back of a horse with possible KS (I can see some of the logic behind it in a 100% pain free horse as a one off to teach the horse to put up with weird things) & would also ideally advise against routinely mounting from the floor on any horse (beyond teaching them to accept it for occasions it is required eg put hacking & occasional reminders) due to extra strain it places on their back & the saddle. But at the end of the day you're the one with the horse & the trainer in front of you.

Would advise re-assessment from the vet (& physio) before asking too much of him in case he does become painful again & if you get the green light then would also advise getting the saddle fit checked as if you've been doing lots of groundwork he's probably changed shape a fair bit.

As for the advice re firmness. Some horses do not tolerate faffing about well & prefer to be told clearly & concisely what is expected & then to get on with it. That doesn't have to go into the realm of bullying / ignoring what the horse is telling you (& please don't let anyone in real life tell you otherwise)

PS If you haven't already look up "trigger stacking"

 

[Apizz2019]

This is such a difficult read as you're a passionate and caring owner and have done your very best for Prince. I applaud you, I really do. Many would have given up long ago.

I don't want to repeat what others have said and I'm not going to tell you what you're doing is right or wrong, as that's not my place to.

You know your horse, you know the individual/s and professionals you're working with, you know what your plan of action is and how you're going to get there etc

All I will say is please please do whatever you must do with your eyes wide open. Try, as hard as it is, not to take anything as gospel unless from the mouth of a qualified professional, e.g your vet, physio etc.

I know how much you want to make this work and I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Prince could come back into work. But, and a huge but, your safety and the welfare of Prince must come first, always.

I'm sure, to varying degrees, we've all been swept along on a ride that is joyous but short lived. It happens, we're human. Just take a step back and think carefully about your next move. It could, literally, be a matter of life or death for you.

I wish every success and happiness for you and Prince, now and in the future.

x

 

[blood_magik]

Please be careful Keira, none of us want to see you hurt. This isn't about whether or not a man stood on Prince's back.

This is a picture of my horse with kissing spines.

View attachment 80945


The dressage judge's comment when she saw me in the cafe was "he needs a man on him". At this point in time, he regularly scored 7s and 8s for his work and he never did this at home, he was a gentle soul. It was only when he had the additional stress of competing and having to do things at particular markers rather than when he felt at a perfect point for me to ask, that he exploded like this. It would come out of nowhere, no warning.

The first time he showed obvious discomfort at home in spite of being warmed with heat lamps, I had him x rayed and kissing spines were found. They were injected with steroids and pain killers and for about a week he was a different horse. Then the painkillers wore off, and from that point on he was unrideable at home.

The only way I can interpret this is that he was used to a level of pain which had grown gradually over time. He thought it was normal, and unless he was stressed by competition, he tolerated it. Then it was taken away and he realised what life was supposed to be like, and refused to go back to accepting the pain like he had before.

I fear for you that Prince will one day reach the end of his stoicism and put you into orbit. I know I'm raining on your parade here Keira, and putting doubts into your mind that, if you are going to ride him, you need not to have in your head. I'm really sorry to do that to anyone. But Prince has a long history since before you bought him and continuing after you bought him which suggest to me and others on the forum that there is a real possibility that he is in pain and that it could result in you being hurt.

Please take care.
.

this is what happened to me.

Had a niggle that something wasn’t quite right… vet wasn’t convinced that anything was wrong (nothing obvious on palpating, all checks up to date etc) until I sent him a video of H putting me into the ground out of nowhere. Turns out he had quite severe KS he’d been out jumping quite happily (and placing) on multiple occasions in the lead up to this…

The pro’s aren’t always right ?‍

 

[Upthecreek]

All I will say is please please do whatever you must do with your eyes wide open. Try, as hard as it is, not to take anything as gospel unless from the mouth of a qualified professional, e.g your vet, physio etc.

Some great advice in your post, but I don’t agree that we should take anything as gospel from anyone. Even qualified professionals make mistakes and give incorrect advice sometimes. They are only human and they only see the horse for a brief snapshot in time. I’m not saying don’t trust them, but you should definitely question any diagnosis/treatment that doesn’t make sense or you don’t feel is right.

I will give an example. A friend of mine very recently took her horse to a very well respected horspital for a lameness workup and was given a diagnosis and treatment plan. She wasn’t able to look at the x-rays when she collected the horse for some reason, but asked for them to be sent to her. This took a couple of weeks and when she received them she realised the diagnosis and treatment was for the other front leg and not the leg the horse was lame on. So another trip to horspital for diagnosis and treatment for the lameness, which was completely different to the diagnosis and treatment given for the other leg.

Vets are not gods and there are good and bad ones, as there are in every profession.

 

[Apizz2019]

Some great advice in your post, but I don’t agree that we should take anything as gospel from anyone. Even qualified professionals make mistakes and give incorrect advice sometimes. They are only human and they only see the horse for a brief snapshot in time. I’m not saying don’t trust them, but you should definitely question any diagnosis/treatment that doesn’t make sense or you don’t feel is right.

I will give an example. A friend of mine very recently took her horse to a very well respected horspital for a lameness workup and was given a diagnosis and treatment plan. She wasn’t able to look at the x-rays when she collected the horse for some reason, but asked for them to be sent to her. This took a couple of weeks and when she received them she realised the diagnosis and treatment was for the other front leg and not the leg the horse was lame on. So another trip to horspital for diagnosis and treatment for the lameness, which was completely different to the diagnosis and treatment given for the other leg.

Vets are not gods and there are good and bad ones, as there are in every profession.

I absolutely agree with you but with a profession, a qualified professional, you have some recourse via the professional body and of course they're regulated.

Very few 'rehab', 'behaviour specialists' etc have little more than public liability insurance and are not governed by anyone other than themselves. Also, quite often, because they're selling a service, they are accomplished sales persons who are able to draw in customers with ease, say exactly what often anguished owners want to hear and so on. There are many many cowboys out there who have left and continue to leave a trail of destruction behind them and many devastated owners in their wake, all of whom have been sucked in because they have great sales patter.

I've had a bad experience with a vet and osteopath but had recourse through the complaints process and governing regulatory body.

 

[Regandal]

I absolutely agree with you but with a profession, a qualified professional, you have some recourse via the professional body and of course they're regulated.

Very few 'rehab', 'behaviour specialists' etc have little more than public liability insurance and are not governed by anyone other than themselves. Also, quite often, because they're selling a service, they are accomplished sales persons who are able to draw in customers with ease, say exactly what often anguished owners want to hear and so on. There are many many cowboys out there who have left and continue to leave a trail of destruction behind them and many devastated owners in their wake, all of whom have been sucked in because they have great sales patter.

I've had a bad experience with a vet and osteopath but had recourse through the complaints process and governing regulatory body.

Good Lord, yes - ask to see his insurance. Hopefully you won’t need to claim on it x

 

[Tiddlypom]

Good Lord, yes - ask to see his insurance. Hopefully you won’t need to claim on it x

Also, would he claim from the OP for any injuries incurred to him if he gets injured by the OP's horse?

Be even more wary of using a chancer, OP.

 

[Ratface]

Hi, Keira,
Forgive me - I'm very late to this party. I'm in my seventies now. I have been around ponies/horses all my life, from babyhood onwards.
I was twenty two, with my three month old baby in his carry cot nearby. I was starting my 4 year old sensible 16:2hh Irish hunter mare: I began to walk her up a slope in the field. A wasp landed on her neck and stung her. She went straight up, lost her balance and crushed me underneath her. I had stayed on (instinctive lean forward and hang on underneath her neck) and the saddles' cantle crushed rhe right side of my sacrum. She got up and went back to the farmhouse. I crawled after her. Baby still asleep in his carrycot. Horse apparently OK and turned out. I drove home, phoned mother etc.
Local GP said I'd never walk properly again. He was right. However, I was a runway model for Mary Quant, and have never stopped owning/ riding horses ever since.

 

[Ratface]

Sorry - forgot the important last bit. I was lucky not to have been paralysed. My mare's natural response to a wasp sting was perfectly functional. She was eventually sold on to a local lady MFH.
Your pony's rearing is one of his responses to pain. I fail to understand why you have to ride him. Lots of fun can be had without inflicting more pain.

 

[flying_high]

Sorry - forgot the important last bit. I was lucky not to have been paralysed. My mare's natural response to a wasp sting was perfectly functional. She was eventually sold on to a local lady MFH.
Your pony's rearing is one of his responses to pain. I fail to understand why you have to ride him. Lots of fun can be had without inflicting more pain.

This is good advice IF the pony is currently in pain being ridden.

After time to settle in, gut issues addressed, physio and a back muscle building groundwork program over a length of time, he may NOT be currently sore to ride.

The KS x-rays were not that bad. There are sound happy horses working under saddle with worse back x-rays. But there are also horses with less bad kissing spine x-rays that are in significant pain ridden and are very dangerous to ride. The x-rays for kissing spine are not definitive unless combined with current pain reactions when palpitating the back and responses to be being ridden. All 3 are needed on the horse's current state to form a picture.

No one can REMOTELY advise if he is comfortable to be ridden now, with his current back muscle state and his current saddle remotely.

 

[Keira 8888]

Hi all,

So sorry I haven’t replied to all your comments. I have read them all though.

As I said before, I completely understand everyone’s misgivings.

As an update, Prince has now been analysed at work with local anaesthetic in his spine and showed no difference at all. In terms of how he carries himself, response to palpation and attitude to going forwards.

The vet is happy for me to proceed with my pole work and twice monthly chiro, as well as light hacking 4 times a week

Everything is going very well and I feel Prince is getting fitter. I have it in the back of my mind at all times that this course of smooth sailing could well end, but for now, all is very calm.

I will keep you all updated

kx

 

[Keira 8888]

??
.

I know it’s hard to understand, and I must seem crazy, but I just know this guy is right for Prince. I’ve always gone with my gut feeling when it comes to Prince - so far it’s served us well. I totally understand why you think this is a bad decision, but I truly feel this guy and Prince understand each other. I will keep you updated x

 

[I'm Dun]

I know it’s hard to understand, and I must seem crazy, but I just know this guy is right for Prince. I’ve always gone with my gut feeling when it comes to Prince - so far it’s served us well. I totally understand why you think this is a bad decision, but I truly feel this guy and Prince understand each other. I will keep you updated x

just make sure you are ALWAYS there when he rides or handles him please!

 

[Keira 8888]

just make sure you are ALWAYS there when he rides or handles him please!

I will - I scuttle along next to them. ?

 

[Keira 8888]

Hey Keira. Let’s draw a line under the weekend and move on ? it’s great you are speaking with your vet about what happened. You have done so damn well with Prince. I think all of us have got carried away in a “moment” at some point and made a “wrong” decision. So onwards and upwards and carry on giving Prince the wonderful love and care that you do ?xx

Thank you ? xxx

 

[Keira 8888]

Oh I remember your post now - why are tou kidding yourself into thinking that your horse doesn't have a kissing spine when the x ray was rather clear?
You've allowed this horse to be bullied into behaving, despite the pain he is in. Mind blown , indeed.

If you've changed your mind about retiring him , you need his spine treated (surgery ?) And then rehabbed. Firm handling has no place in this!

Injecting the spine is nothing to do with diagnosing a kissing spine. It is a fork of treatment to try and control the pain and inflammation in the spine.

Very disappointed by this post.

I understand everything you say and why you are disappointed in my post. It was stupid of me to post that picture.
I don’t want to put Prince through surgery though, just hoping to continue with his rehab (no more letting anyone stand on his back) I have had him analysed now, with and without local anaesthetic in his spine, and he showed no difference in behaviour or how he carried himself, so I will just continue to build his back up now x

 

[Keira 8888]

Kiera I can see why you are having difficulty with this. Everyone here feels it is a bad idea, but clearly people who know both Prince and this 'pro' have advised that it is a good course of action.

I think enough has been said here about why most of us feel that, based upon the information available to us, it is the wrong course of action. I have not changed my opinion about this, and over my dead body would a 'pro' be allowed to do that to my horses, but he is your horse, I know that you have his best interests at heart, and you must do what you think best. The only one thing I would say is please please do not allow your daughter to ride Prince again until you can be really sure that it is safe for her. Horses with pain can react in any moment. I have seen a KS horse at our stable be ridden by a pro without problems, and 5 minutes later with his owner rear, slip, and come over onto his side trapping her leg and resulting in a bad break. She was lucky, it was just her leg.

My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince. In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling. Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.

Thank you Winters, I understand exactly what you are saying xx

 

[Keira 8888]

Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince.

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease. I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain. Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, so please be careful.

Are you familiar with the work done on how horses express pain through their facial expressions and subtle behaviours? It is worth exploring and then, when Prince is ridden again, don't look at how his body is moving all the time - look at his face and see how he is reacting there.

Above all, be guided by your vet on the sort of work Prince can do - and no one else. Personally I would not stand on the spine of the healthiest, strongest horse in the world and anyone who did that to mine would never come near him again. The forces concentrated down through a single point of contact are far, far greater than the dispersed weight of the average rider..

I am sorry so many of us are raining on your parade - but we are truly supportive of the wonderful work you have done with Prince so far - and we all want that journey to continue!!

Thank you for this xx

 

[poiuytrewq]

I hadn't been aware of his history.

I made the same comment at first too. I can kind of see what someone is attempting to do by standing (disclaimer, not something I’d ever do or allow!) and I think I’m this case and others it’s worked… but, I was unaware as eahotson that there was a KS diagnosis. A X-ray Is a confirmed diagnosis with no doubt.

 

[Ellietotz]

I understand you are taking your vets advice but something just doesn't sit right with it. For the degree of pain that was shown in his behaviour previously, I'm not sure how well a nerve block would work. Please can you PM what vet you are using? I'd be interested to know as I am local and there are a couple I would not recommend.

 

[throwawayaccount]

is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school.