My horse went for me yesterday, and he really meant it - Thoughts?!

Your body language does not say that you are in charge, and his says that you are being annoying and the treats are too long in coming. The nip will come because you are not obviously dominant. Geldings play - you are playing with him....

My gelding did exactly that to another horse we were next to the other day. It was annoying him, he told it so.

How to handle it? You need to have the presence and the body language, and really learn from the trainer you get in. Friend’s small pony likes to attack people when they are lunging it. It went for me once. Never again. I had words, not involving force of body so much as force of mind. It is now picture perfect for me, but the pony still does it to its owner.

Presence and ‘don’t mess with me‘ respect earning body language and behaviour aren’t always what you think. Our squealy kicky Shetland respects most the horse that simply walks into her kicks and takes none of her bad temper, and less that one that has actually cut her repeatedly through fighting in the past.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
A little additional info that may be helpful to know: He is always loose with no headcollar during the sessions...
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When I was reading the first part of your post, I was wondering whether or not Jacob had been wearing a headcollar (or halter etc).

I have experienced for myself but also read of horses behaving differently when they are wearing no headcollar. It's as if they think they are free, not under our 'command' in this state.
 
Ouch - you are lucky he didn't atcually pick you up and throw youaside. Had that happen to a male groom who hadn't been spotted knocking horses around - my stallion decided it was time HE took action. He'd just been let loose in the field and chap was holding electric gate open (he only mucked the stallion's stable out and took water and haylage into him. Was not trused to lead him with mares around (Buck was a randy bugger!) Buck grabbed him hard - right over the kidney area - and threw him 6' through the air to land him on the ground. If the more experienced groom hadn't quickly intervened, he'd have killed the twat. I only remembered AFTER the event that a) a quiet mare had seemed to have become rather head-shy, and a very polite young gelding - being led out in hand for grass pick, HAD kicked the same groom. Put 2 and 2 together - and he got my boot up his a*se because Buck was a nibbler (with grooms as well as mares - but never actually BIT into anyone or any mare. Within a couple of hours, I demanded to look at the bite area - and he was already black and blue and in pain (which he deserved.) SO there is something WRONG with this horse, either pain (ulcers, perhaps) or his breeding (temperament IS hereditary - although more developed to be good or bad by handling) OR he's just a pushy bugger you have allowed to step over the line. Stallions will do this when badly handled and allowed to take liberties - but it IS very rare in a gelding. You are right to think and think and think - and take steps once you've figured out the most likely cause. It is NOT just greed and giving titbits - unless you've given in to DEMANDS - rather than offering a reward, along with a 'good boy' and a pat. Titbits can help give a horse confidence- but you do have to ensure he doesn't think he rules!
 
Sorry this happened, I have absolutely no experience in this kind of training. I have seen your videos previously, I thought they were great and your braver than I am, I did think your horse was actually very very good having that many treats from your pocket and not going in for a bite. Xx
 
So a few thoughts/questions:

When you say that you "ride him through" his tantrums what do you mean?
Horses don't have tantrums without reason - have you identified the cause of them and treated that?

You say he isnt bargy but doesnt respect human space - one of the first things to teach in clicker training is manners and ground rules - including respecting your space. Before progressing with clicker training it is essential that you have well established manners and boundaries.

I watched the video and he does a lovely halt next to you which you rightly reward but when you move off he then goes behind you and "chases / plays" which you reward and reinforce when he halts again and you then click and treat.

I would suggest getting a head collar on him to show him where you want him when you move off (head by your shoulder matching your speed) and then click and treat but be careful not to accidentally reinforce unwanted behaviour.

I also wanted to ask what you know about what happened at the dealers and how you know it wasnt medical.
 
redredruby said:
So a few thoughts/questions:

When you say that you "ride him through" his tantrums what do you mean?
Horses don't have tantrums without reason - have you identified the cause of them and treated that?

You say he isnt bargy but doesnt respect human space - one of the first things to teach in clicker training is manners and ground rules - including respecting your space. Before progressing with clicker training it is essential that you have well established manners and boundaries.

I watched the video and he does a lovely halt next to you which you rightly reward but when you move off he then goes behind you and "chases / plays" which you reward and reinforce when he halts again and you then click and treat.

I would suggest getting a head collar on him to show him where you want him when you move off (head by your shoulder matching your speed) and then click and treat but be careful not to accidentally reinforce unwanted behaviour.

I also wanted to ask what you know about what happened at the dealers and how you know it wasnt medical.
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His tantrums happen when he is behind another horse and doesn’t want them to be in front, but he also doesn’t want to be in front so he either doesn’t move/backs up, kicks out or humps - only rarely now though. He will do the same if he doesn’t set off first in a canter, although this has improved hugely now, or if he is asked to turn around on the way back from a hack to do a gate, or I take too long at a gate. And when I say I ride through them I mean a sit pretty quiet, ask for forward movement with my legs and remove the pressure once I get it, sometimes accompanied with a growl if he really won’t get over himself - that’s all.

The information re: the dealer situation was given to me by someone at the yard, who I believe had an awareness of what went on at the time.

I am inclined to think that this was a herd behaviour, ‘playful’ and food exacerbated thing, I also have no doubt that I caused it; if it was behaviour such as in your post JG, I don’t think he would have been shooed off with just my arms and not turned around and gone for either another bite and/or a kick. I’m also not sure if it would have deescalated so easily I terms of his body language and no further ‘attack’. This certainly wasn’t just a nip though, and I will not be being complacent with it and it’s cause - but I am just going to avoid the trigger and handle him as normal in other circumstances in between now and getting someone out to assess him.
 
Lois Lame said:
I have experienced for myself but also read of horses behaving differently when they are wearing no headcollar. It's as if they think they are free, not under our 'command' in this state.
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I've been asked a couple of times to take a horse into the arena or into the covered manège to let it run at liberty to burn off some energy; each time the horse was wearing a head collar for me to lead it from its box to its "playground", and the head collar stayed on. Catching to bring back in was no problem, the horse seemed to understand that playtime was over, and it was time to go back in.

With several horses, I've noticed a definite difference in behaviour without and with the head collar. A couple are a bit difficult to groom and tack up until I put on the head collar. Before putting it on, the horse shuffles around or turns away from me. Once the head collar is on, the horse stands stock still for brushing, picking out feet and tacking up; I don't even have to fit a lead rope to the head collar and tie it to a ring.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I must admit I never 'get' this kind of training but that's just a personal choice. I don't want to be treated as a member of the herd and I worry he sees you as another horse so nipping etc is just natural play.
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Clicker training isn't being part of the herd but exactly the opposite. The animal (it can work with a wide variety of species) understands that the handler is in control of the demands and the rewards.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I couldn't read and not post because you sound like a lovely caring Mum.
I must admit I never 'get' this kind of training but that's just a personal choice. I don't want to be treated as a member of the herd and I worry he sees you as another horse so nipping etc is just natural play.
I watched your video and it looked great but I was worried when you asked him to trot, his body language wasn't relaxed.
I think I'd just go back to walk exercises but see what your professional says and I'd be interested to hear what they say.
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It's actually been the norm for training zoo animals for decades.
 
I though BB meant the running along at liberty being confusing to the horse? Not clicker?

I've got mixed feelings about liberty. I turned up to lunge over poles one day and forgot the lunge line. So I did it with an imaginary line and was delighted that Amber happily trotted and cantered round over the poles 'at liberty'. But it is not something I particularly want to pursue and although it looks beautiful when horses and people play together I also worry about how safe it is. And wonder what the training value is unless it's something that is not a means to an end but an end in itself. Which I understand more as I imagine it is a very special experience.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I though BB meant the running along at liberty being confusing to the horse? Not clicker?

I've got mixed feelings about liberty. I turned up to lunge over poles one day and forgot the lunge line. So I did it with an imaginary line and was delighted that Amber happily trotted and cantered round over the poles 'at liberty'. But it is not something I particularly want to pursue and although it looks beautiful when horses and people play together I also worry about how safe it is. And wonder what the training value is unless it's something that is not a means to an end but an end in itself. Which I understand more as I imagine it is a very special experience.
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Yes you're right it's the running free that I see as potentially confusing.
 
Just watched your video on the other thread. Christ, you’re braver than me, I’ve owned some absolute gems in the past and I wouldn’t run around in an outdoor school like that with them. Lovely that you are doing groundwork,but please put some safety measures in place: head collar on at all times, lead rope to hand, and wear a riding hat! And if you have an indoor school, do it in there.
I saw a horrible accident a few years ago, involving loose schooling in an outdoor school. The horse spooked at something and took off. As he approached the fence, he decided at the last minute not to jump it. He hit the fence square on with his chest and the momentum flipped him up and over (rotational) landing on the other side. He then blitzed up to the yard across raw concrete, almost coming down again in the process. God knows what long term injuries he sustained - the owner packed him off somewhere else shortly after. A shame because he was a nice type.
Our yard now has a ‘no loose schooling outdoors’ rule.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I though BB meant the running along at liberty being confusing to the horse? Not clicker?

I've got mixed feelings about liberty. I turned up to lunge over poles one day and forgot the lunge line. So I did it with an imaginary line and was delighted that Amber happily trotted and cantered round over the poles 'at liberty'. But it is not something I particularly want to pursue and although it looks beautiful when horses and people play together I also worry about how safe it is. And wonder what the training value is unless it's something that is not a means to an end but an end in itself. Which I understand more as I imagine it is a very special experience.
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When we do 'free schooling' with clicker training in the field (we don't have a school), we are always close to the horse and certainly aren't playing with the horse. If I walk into a field and call a horse, I expect it to come close and stop, not run me over, even though it hasn't got a headcollar on, again, if I go into the filed to do a job and don't wan the horse that approaches me, I send it away, I don't expect it to kick/bite or ignore me just because it isn't wearing a headcollar. It's all in the body language ime.
 
I used to watch a now, sadly, late proper nagswoman send her herd of horses down the lane to their turn out field, she would shout "Walk" out of the kitchen window, those who had stopped walked, those who were trotting walked and they reached the field in an orderly manner. Liberty work should not be playing imo but training the horse to respond to voice commands which it has already learnt while on a lead rope.
 
Lois Lame said:
When I was reading the first part of your post, I was wondering whether or not Jacob had been wearing a headcollar (or halter etc).

I have experienced for myself but also read of horses behaving differently when they are wearing no headcollar. It's as if they think they are free, not under our 'command' in this state.
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I have one like this. Without a head collar on he is sometimes quite reactive to being handled. Occasionally, for example, he will refuse to have his foot picked out or his rug adjusted. Put a head collar on, no rope, still not tied up, different animal. It's very odd!
 
ycbm said:
I have one like this. Without a head collar on he is sometimes quite reactive to being handled. Occasionally, for example, he will refuse to have his foot picked out or his rug adjusted. Put a head collar on, no rope, still not tied up, different animal. It's very odd!
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I used to have to put a halter (we don't use headcollars) on my cob when she was younger, in order to do anything with her, even in the stable. Now I can handle her in the field without anything on her head. We just took it in stages.
 
I would not run around with an unrestrained horse because I would be worried about the horse suddenly dashing forward and lashing out with one or both hind legs - as horses can be observed to do when they are playing together.
A bit off topic but I think the only creature that could take a bite out of MY waist would be a hippo, I'm afraid a horses mouth simply isn't large enough!
 
Hmm, I watched your previous video when you posted it and I didn't comment, partly because it made me feel uncomfortable but I couldn't quite justify expressing that negativity, and also partly because I've never really seen the point of clicker training, over a verbal reward.

I do train mine on the ground at liberty, and I do use food rewards. Mostly I focus on moving the horse around me than playing running games which, I have observed, often go badly for people. I also don't really want mine to chase me / follow me loose - it's not a particularly desirable outcome, I don't think. I do, however, what them to move around me sensibly when I'm doing things in the field (poo picking, rugging, fencing etc).

I think the horse was giving off some serious signals in your first video, and it's sensible not to try this sort of thing until you can read those clearly.
 
JFTDWS said:
Hmm, I watched your previous video when you posted it and I didn't comment, partly because it made me feel uncomfortable but I couldn't quite justify expressing that negativity, and also partly because I've never really seen the point of clicker training, over a verbal reward.

I do train mine on the ground at liberty, and I do use food rewards. Mostly I focus on moving the horse around me than playing running games which, I have observed, often go badly for people. I also don't really want mine to chase me / follow me loose - it's not a particularly desirable outcome, I don't think. I do, however, what them to move around me sensibly when I'm doing things in the field (poo picking, rugging, fencing etc).

I think the horse was giving off some serious signals in your first video, and it's sensible not to try this sort of thing until you can read those clearly.
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I agree, a horses signals can come across as playful but from experience with training my own and with observation in the field that kind of head shaking is a dominant body language in the field and a lack of respect on the ground.
 
JFTDWS said:
Hmm, I watched your previous video when you posted it and I didn't comment, partly because it made me feel uncomfortable but I couldn't quite justify expressing that negativity, and also partly because I've never really seen the point of clicker training, over a verbal reward.

I do train mine on the ground at liberty, and I do use food rewards. Mostly I focus on moving the horse around me than playing running games which, I have observed, often go badly for people. I also don't really want mine to chase me / follow me loose - it's not a particularly desirable outcome, I don't think. I do, however, what them to move around me sensibly when I'm doing things in the field (poo picking, rugging, fencing etc).

I think the horse was giving off some serious signals in your first video, and it's sensible not to try this sort of thing until you can read those clearly.
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agree with this.
Feels like party pooping but I do think that loose horses "playing" which can just be rather unstructured attempts at training really, can lead to accidents. Not because the horse was nasty or the owner did anything wrong in that moment, but just because I think it blurs the boundaries and can lead to a misunderstanding.
I knew someone that used to like his horse to play loose in the school. It ended up with the horse being quite dangerous in the field because when you went to catch in, it would wheel around striking out. Unintended consequence of something that seemed like lighthearted fun, but it's all linked because the horse doesn't know when play is allowed and when it isn't.
 
I have done groundwork similar in the past with some of mine. I had a gelding who had a major injury as a youngster and couldn’t do much and he thrived off doing different things. However, I never used treats. His reward was a scratch and time with me. He would follow me, back up when I stepped towards him with my hand up, spin with when I turned by his shoulder. One thing to note though, he never , ever put his ears back at me. He would jog alongside me, but always with a relaxed expression. Polly is the same and I have been able to do the same with her.
However, I wouldn’t do it with Millie and I couldn’t do it with Diva, in spite of our bond. Or indeed a gelding I had called Jack who was the softest thing ever, but would get very dominant in these situations.
Some horses are just more susceptible to dominant behaviour and I would read their body language very carefully before deciding whether they were a suitable candidate for such work.
From your video on the first page, the Horse is not giving off the best vibes if I’m honest. He certainly wouldn’t be one I would deem suitable for playing in this way with, particularly not with food involved.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I am inclined to think that this was a herd behaviour, ‘playful’ and food exacerbated thing, I also have no doubt that I caused it; if it was behaviour such as in your post JG, I don’t think he would have been shooed off with just my arms and not turned around and gone for either another bite and/or a kick. I’m also not sure if it would have deescalated so easily I terms of his body language and no further ‘attack’. This certainly wasn’t just a nip though, and I will not be being complacent with it and it’s cause - but I am just going to avoid the trigger and handle him as normal in other circumstances in between now and getting someone out to assess him.
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lol, I think you are absolutely right! If the twat who was bitten by Buck had tried to shoo him off, NOTHING wuld have worked. Buck has always been a very determined lad - at 18 months old he jumped 2x5 electric fences to get onto the yard, and then jumped a stable door (with roof overhang - to get INTO the stable with a mare who had JUST ovulated. Not a mark on him, the mare OR the door. Fortunately, he had respect for the girl who DID handle him, she was in the field and yelled whoa, grabbed headcollar and his face said it all - according to her. He said: 'Oh shit, leave me alone with the twat - please!'. Yep - he was playing 'follow her and grab a treat' - in kids it would be rightly described as bullying and harassment.
 
I've done some of this stuff with mine in the past. He will follow at my shoulder, stop, back up etc and that has been very useful. Rewarded with praise and scratches, not food and not with a clicker.

But he has also tried the head shaking and trying to play when I am in the field with him and that I won't tolerate. He's too big and I'm too small for that and he is very firmly sent away.
 
I did quite a lot of clicker training with mine, especially as a youngster. It was great as she associated a click with 'its ok' so I could help show her stuff she thought was going to be scary, wasn't. I did never run with her clicker training though, I can see why that might turn into a game, especially with a playful gelding.
 
I have to agree with jftdws I also don't see the point of doing such training with a horse, I have a gelding that has bitten me a couple of times, his not nasty it's almost like a play thing he does so I don't ever put my self in a situation that makes it easy for him to bite me, I would just stop doing the clicker training and liberty work it's clearly not safe, I think with the other things that he does could indicate ulcers so might be worth checking out.
 
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