My horse went for me yesterday, and he really meant it - Thoughts?!

[Leo Walker]

I heartily agree with you. Though I don't think this is modern horse training, circuses have done this sort of thing for years. I watched Jean Francois Pignon while waiting for the sj at Olympia. All very nice but he does have a whip;-) I'm afraid that the sort of horsemanship that gives me goosebumps is provided by Scott Brash!

He has the whip a cue not as a weapon to defend himself.

And as for Scott Brash, the overly tight drop and curb combo leaves me cold I'm afraiid

 

[Berpisc]

No, you come across as thoughtful and started an interesting thread. Do what works for you and this horse, kick on.

 

[Leandy]

Sounds as though he thought he was playing/interacting as he would with other horses in a field. You are a human, he is a horse, each needs to know its place. I think you have blurred the lines or not had them in the first place. A horse is bigger and rougher than we are, why would you want to give him the opportunity to behave like this with you? Seriously, don't give him the opportunity to try to gain the upper hand, it is dangerous, particularly when he is loose. I think you need to rethink what you are aiming for and remember he is a horse who needs to do your bidding, not a friend who gets to negotiate about it.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think it's nonsense either, and I do think it's a helpful thread - it's always useful to think about different training methods and lets face it most of us are tinkering away with things on our own a lot of the time so mistakes are going to be made. it's good to reflect on them

i did a bit with Salty before turning her away and found it quite nice to have something tangible for us both to learn. I don't think that it is in opposition with "normal" training but I think that if you aren't careful when introducing any new thing, it's quite easy for previously established rules or boundaries to get temporarily forgotten, by mistake.

 

[Bellaboo18]

He has the whip a cue not as a weapon to defend himself.

And as for Scott Brash, the overly tight drop and curb combo leaves me cold I'm afraiid

I love Scott Brash's riding style, kind hands and can sit quietly. It's just a personal choice, I too would rather watch him than someone like Jean Francois Pignon.

 

[windand rain]

I would prefer to watch Scott Brash too I just don't like liberty it looks awful to me but it would be a miserable old world if we all enjoyed the same thing

 

[SEL]

There's nothing wrong with clicker training if you do it properly. My circus trained Ardennes knows exactly what the clicker means and was trained properly by people who knew what they were doing (not me). I still use it though for handling his feet for trimming. Even if I don't get the timing quite right he knows what the intention is. We sometimes do other odds and sods with the clicker just for fun - but he's really nice natured, doesn't mug and would never dream of kicking out at a human.

I have used it with my mare for feet handling, but she has issues with human vs horse behaviours (hand reared) and given she can still be tetchy around food I need to make sure I'm in a situation where it is safe and she 100% knows what she is being rewarded for.

A friend uses it regularly with all her horses and none of them snatch, bite or show any bad behaviours. Its a way of training she likes and enjoys and so she's put a lot of time and effort into training herself to do it properly.

 

[windand rain]

I think clicker traininng is a very good tool for all sorts of reasons when done well. It is a bit like most things when dealing with animals they learn bad practise as well as good so like every other horse training it needs an instructor to teach you first. It is perfect for things like injections, checking teeth, feet cleaning etc. I just dont see a horse at liberty as being anything but stressed and a bit robotic. Sadly clicker is a skill that some people think all you need is a clicker and an animal and maybe a leaflet or youtube video

 

[Leo Walker]

I love Scott Brash's riding style, kind hands and can sit quietly. It's just a personal choice, I too would rather watch him than someone like Jean Francois Pignon.

I'm not a big fan of either tbh. I wouldnt sit down and watch either of them unless I had a really good reason. Its just interesting how people who are clearly going against the principles of "good old fashioned horsemanship" are held up as an example of it.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm late to this thread - but having watched the video I suggest you never do clicker training with this horse again. His body language is both dominant and aggressive - ears back, neck snaking, bite threats, tight back, slightly prancy trot. If my horse moved next to me like that, I'd tell it off, and not take my eyes off it.

I feed treats all the time - but mine earn them by good behaviour - and don't expect them all the time. If I don't have anything, it's no issue. But - my treats/my rules.

 

[CJoe]

I haven't seen the clip, not into clicker training, but can tell you 110% if I tried clicker training with my horse, he would probably either totally ignore me or eat me, it would just piss him off! I cannot tell you why, I just know him well enough to know he would wonder what the hell the point was and not be best pleased...….would stick to more traditional training maybe with this horse??

The noise alone would annoy ME let alone my horse!!

 

[Sleipnir]

OP, I'm sorry that you feel that way after this discussion, but honestly - you shouldn't. We all make mistakes, especially, when we try something new, and it's only human. It's very thoughtful of you that you have noticed the problems with your horses' body language (or, not problems - rather him just not knowing the boundaries and yourself not knowing how to properly install them). No worries - even if you can't afford a pro trainer to come out to your yard, there's still tons of good online resources and groups of helpful and professional people that will be able to direct you in the right way.

To those who are more attracted to proper oldschool methods that have always worked well - yes, they do work well. But I really appreciate that nowadays we get to choose and get to find what's right for us and our horses - and, if one is open to learning, there's so many great opportunities to become better equestrians, no matter if we want to do proper Dressage, or showjump, or show in hand, or do agility, or hack, or play at liberty, or /insert a thing/, or do a combination of them all.

OP: My older gelding is a proper character. I got him as a 5yo from a bad situation where he was malnourished and mistreated, and as such he had learned to be aggressive towards humans, just to be left alone. He'd rear, he'd strike, he'd bite - he was outright dangerous and with the knowledge and mind I have today - maybe I would not have bought him. But I did. Of course, a well timed smack and an "Oy! Behave!" would have worked, but it also always carried a risk of exploding him in to a fear-aggressive mess, so I bit the bullet and tried the clicker (clicking my tongue, instead of an actual clicker). Since then it has helped us:

* Erase his food aggression. He would rear and attack during feeding, now he stands as a lamb and waits for the signal to approach his bucket;
* Get him to stand perfectly for the farrier. He used to get aggressive, because his feet hurt due to previous mistreatment.
* Get him to lead and ride perfectly through grassy areas - without snatching for grass AND without pulling on the reins, tapping or smacking with a whip, kicking his sides or doing anything else to get him going forwards;
* He has a terrific recall and will come to me not only from anywhere in his fields - which are currently more than 70 acres large - but also has helped me in the past when his herd got loose and were running around outside of the fencing;
* Helped him get over his phobia of motorcycles, ATVs and trains;
* He opens his mouth and displays his teeth for the dentist even without a speculum (which is, of course, used to fixate his mouth during filing);
* His vets LOVE him;
* I could fulfill my childish dream of galloping with him bridleless on the beach ) ;
* We've got a ton of tricks up our sleeves which we use when he performs in ads, movies or parties - and, speaking of movies, it helps him to be fearless, for example, when we had to ride bitless through a tunnel of fire during night;
* And, when the weather is nasty, the arena is frozen and there's nothing to "do", we entertain ourselves with intellectual exercises of recognizing colors, pictures and letters, also he's able to count up to 10, and, if we please, we can have a blast in a safe, yet exuberant liberty session in an open field.

So, don't get discouraged - even if you're at the beginning of your experience with this boy, and even if you're experienced less than lucky moments, you still get to try and try again - until you succeed. No matter what others say, who've tried, failed and decided "it's not for them". Good luck!

 

[Sleipnir]

And why not throw myself under the wheels just this once - not a proper clicker training session, as I used a whip to direct my beast away from me when he got a bit too feisty, and also a bit of negative reinforcement during the session, but this is a 16.3hh carriage type warmblood having a blast on a snowy day in an open field, after too many days in a frozen paddock with not enough movement. All of his movements were called for (including the rears, because I taught him to rear on command to re-direct his impulses), and it was pure joy. It's really something else - to just feel free, childish and playful with an animal this large, with no rules to follow and no norms to be concerned of.

 

[stormox]

My friend bought a perfectly well mannered 2 yr old filly. Led, loaded etc no bother. The following year she started clicker training her with the help of an experienced clicker trainer. Within 6 months the filly had become a bolshy nippy madam and the following year she had got so bad with the biting nipping and stubborness (unless she had a huge bag of titbits to hand) she had to sell her!
Personally I dont think clicker training really works with horses.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's really something else - to just feel free, childish and playful with an animal this large, with no rules to follow and no norms to be concerned of.

But you do (very wisely) have rules. You sent the horse away from you with a whip when he got too feisty. You used negative reinforcement to control his behaviour.

Personally I think that playing in an open space in snow with a horse at liberty that has recently been confined is nuts, but then life would be boring if we all thought the same thing.

 

[Leo Walker]

My friend bought a perfectly well mannered 2 yr old filly. Led, loaded etc no bother. The following year she started clicker training her with the help of an experienced clicker trainer. Within 6 months the filly had become a bolshy nippy madam and the following year she had got so bad with the biting nipping and stubborness (unless she had a huge bag of titbits to hand) she had to sell her!
Personally I dont think clicker training really works with horses.

I cant speak for the one you knew, but done properly it really does work.

This is a very simple exercise that just happened to be at the top of a youtube search. It shows how quickly and easily you can shape behaviours

 

[JFTDWS]

He has the whip a cue not as a weapon to defend himself.

And as for Scott Brash, the overly tight drop and curb combo leaves me cold I'm afraiid

Funny, I presumed the previous poster was using "goose bumps" in a negative sense, as I really can't see a lot to like about SB (or most SJ for that matter). I'm no fan of JFP either, I don't much dislike him, but I wouldn't hold him up as "good". I'm not really sure it's possible to use horses for financial gain and act in their best interests at all times.

 

[Sleipnir]

It would be nuts if I tried it with a horse who had never met me before! However, this day had layers upon layers of history, before I even thought of having a liberty session with a feisty giant. So - freedom with a horse is a wonderful gift. But it is earned. And sometimes it asks for not only months, but years of preparedness.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The problem is that this thread is about a combination of Liberty work and clicker training. Clicker training does NOT have to be done at liberty. I first used it to prepare my cob for being sedated to have a sarcoid removed from just above her lip. She had a halter on all the time. Equally Liberty work doesn't have to involve clicker training. I would have said that I am not a fan of Liberty work, because I don't want horses to get above a walk when loose in a field with me and yet I do work with my horses practising turns and moving shoulders/quarters while they are loose in the field, with clicker training..

 

[Rowreach]

Funny, I presumed the previous poster was using "goose bumps" in a negative sense, as I really can't see a lot to like about SB (or most SJ for that matter). I'm no fan of JFP either, I don't much dislike him, but I wouldn't hold him up as "good". I'm not really sure it's possible to use horses for financial gain and act in their best interests at all times.

I watched JFP outside and inside the arena at the RDS and it nearly had me in tears (and not ones of joy). I don't think I've ever seen a group of less happy/more stressed looking horses, including a foal.

I've found this thread very interesting. I've used clicker training under instruction from a pro, for a particular issue, but I ended up reverting to more traditional methods and solved the problem that way. I have seen some nasty incidents involving horses that overstep their boundaries, but that can happen with any form of training.

I do think that reading horse (or any animal) behaviour is an essential skill in any interaction.

 

[JFTDWS]

I watched JFP outside and inside the arena at the RDS and it nearly had me in tears (and not ones of joy). I don't think I've ever seen a group of less happy/more stressed looking horses, including a foal.

I do think that reading horse (or any animal) behaviour is an essential skill in any interaction.

I've heard similar things, but to be honest, I've never seen more than a few seconds of his displays because I'm not overly interested in his sort of stunts. That is sort of what I meant about financial gain being incompatible with horse centric training. If you're relying on bookings, you're going to have to keep finding new ways to make your displays impressive, like using foals (which is pretty rubbish) and you're going to end up putting horses in situations that won't benefit them because you're booked and you can't back out and very few people have huge numbers of spares for every eventuality.

Last sentence with bells on, too.

 

[milliepops]

I watched JFP outside and inside the arena at the RDS and it nearly had me in tears (and not ones of joy). I don't think I've ever seen a group of less happy/more stressed looking horses, including a foal.
.

that's the thing, they do looks stressed quite a bit of the time
we walked away from the olympia display, i just can't really watch them.
People like him are the public front of liberty work and it makes me feel pretty uncomfortable. I am sure there are lots of other people doing things in private that are very different but it's hard to get inspired when that's the example.

 

[Rowreach]

I've heard similar things, but to be honest, I've never seen more than a few seconds of his displays because I'm not overly interested in his sort of stunts. That is sort of what I meant about financial gain being incompatible with horse centric training. If you're relying on bookings, you're going to have to keep finding new ways to make your displays impressive, like using foals (which is pretty rubbish) and you're going to end up putting horses in situations that won't benefit them because you're booked and you can't back out and very few people have huge numbers of spares for every eventuality.

Last sentence with bells on, too.

I only watched the arena display as a result of what I'd seen outside It wasn't something that had interested me, but I needed confirmation of what I'd witnessed iyswim. Unbelievable tension, wariness, wrinkled expressions - a group of worried and unhappy horses.

 

[Fellewell]

He has the whip a cue not as a weapon to defend himself.

And as for Scott Brash, the overly tight drop and curb combo leaves me cold I'm afraiid

Looks like a standard piece of kit correctly fitted. I shouldn't think he needs bitting advice from us though.

Surely a whip will only act as a cue if it has first been used as a whip? How many times can a clicker be used without a treat before the animal stops offering the desired behaviour?

 

[JFTDWS]

I only watched the arena display as a result of what I'd seen outside It wasn't something that had interested me, but I needed confirmation of what I'd witnessed iyswim. Unbelievable tension, wariness, wrinkled expressions - a group of worried and unhappy horses.

I'd like to revise my earlier comments to "I do dislike him" in the light of this.

I also dislike the idea that a noseband that tight is appropriately fitted.

 

[BBP]

Looks like a standard piece of kit correctly fitted. I shouldn't think he needs bitting advice from us though.

Surely a whip will only act as a cue if it has first been used as a whip? How many times can a clicker be used without a treat before the animal stops offering the desired behaviour?

In exactly the same way that a touch from your hand can be used as a cue without you having to hit the horse with it first?

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

OP. You made an error, something we ALL do (some of us waaaayyyy more than once ??).
I'm not very familiar with "liberty" work but clicker training I do know. CT definitely works but you need to have a very good idea of the principles behind it before trying, it's so so easy to reward the wrong things if your timing is even fractionally off. Timing is everything in CT and an awful lot of people find it hard to "get it".
May I suggest the Karen Pryor book "Dont shoot the dog". Even if you never pick up a clicker again, and I wouldn't blame you after this thread, it makes for an interesting and informative read.
Your horse is a beautiful lad but he definitely thought you two were on a different page in the video.
Traditional training is fine (depending on what "traditional " means to you of course) but knowledge moves on, we learn more about communication with our animals, science has moved on etc. Remember, it's not all that long ago that people were obsessed with "dominance " in dogs based on a bad conducted and unnatural study of wolves which even it's original scientist debunked..!!!!

 

[paddy555]

Surely a whip will only act as a cue if it has first been used as a whip?

I don't understand why you think that? the whip ( in ground work ) is used to guide the horse not beat the living daylights out of it.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

that's the thing, they do looks stressed quite a bit of the time
we walked away from the olympia display, i just can't really watch them.
People like him are the public front of liberty work and it makes me feel pretty uncomfortable. I am sure there are lots of other people doing things in private that are very different but it's hard to get inspired when that's the example.

Take a look at what Emma Massingale does with hers, all look pretty engaged, even the little ones.

 

[milliepops]

Take a look at what Emma Massingale does with hers, all look pretty engaged, even the little ones.

Ooh yeah forgot about her. She did lots of sweet videos around xmas with NAF