My horse went for me yesterday, and he really meant it - Thoughts?!

AShetlandBitMeOnce

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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As a preface, I am seeking the help of a ground work professional, but there is such a wealth of experience on here that I thought it would be interesting to see what people's view of the incident would be..

So Jacob went for me yesterday in the school during a clicker training session, and when I say this I don't mean nip I mean that he went to really bite me and he meant it. He got his mouth around my side/waist and had I not been slightly quicker than he was, it could have been quite serious. I chased him off to the other side of the school after this and left him in the corner standing still, after 30 seconds or so I retrieved him and did another couple of minutes and took him back to his stable. He was fairly calm after and didn't kick out etc, went back to being himself - but I feel from him that it could escalate and he would be a horse to fight back, hence stopping these sessions until I have experienced help to help me to know what to do.

A little additional info that may be helpful to know: He is always loose with no headcollar during the sessions and they are very low pressure - I do not use/carry a whip, I have read a lot and watched a lot of videos but I am no expert at it. I also always only train after he has had his dinner, so he isn't starving. He is dominant with his field mate and has no real respect for a humans space but isn't outwardly bargey. He started to back away from the door, he stopped rubbing his face on his handler, stopped pushing forward when emptying food into his bucket and lead with a relaxed leadrope following these training sessions, but he is also not fussed about walking through you if someone is stood at the door with something interesting.

He isn't nasty on the ground, he is a very amicable and normal horse, although if you throw a rug on or do something he isn't keen on he will put his ears back and will kick out with a leg, but it will always be the leg on the other side to the human. He is as good as gold to do everything with, feet, dentist, farrier, groom etc etc. I have taken over a lot of his care now for 5 months, but bought him 3 weeks ago - he has gone from not doing much at all, to being ridden 3 x a week, to now being ridden 5 x a week. He used to throw tantrums when he didn't want to do something and still does to an extent (mainly ridden) but I can and do push him through it, and I think he has learnt from previous homes that these tantrums or threatening behaviour got him out of doing things (he was owned by a teenager who bought him for a 5 figure sum, and then ended up in a dealers yard straight from, so something went seriously wrong there and it certainluy wasn't medical).

Sorry for the essay!! Any opinions/views welcome on both causation and whether you think I dealt with it in the right way. :) Happy to answer any additional questions, I have been driving myself mad wondering whether I did anything.
 
ihatework said:
What were you training him to do when he went for you?
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I was walking and he was walking beside me, and then I jogged on for him to trot, with the queue word T-rot - he was beside me trotting and lunged sideways with his teeth, hence why he got me around the waist. No real use for this, was just a little fun for me I guess, but has helped him know what I am asking when lunging.

Tiddlypom said:
Why are you using clicker training on him? What are you aiming to achieve with it that normal handling won’t?
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It was just something that I had seen people do that interested me, so I thought I would try it with him. It was something that gave us something to do for 20 minutes if the weather was awful and I couldn't ride. I am more than willing to never do it again, but I would like a professional to assess him and to just let me know why it happened; and weather something is likely to prompt it to happen again. He is incredibly dominant as I say, so I think it may be part of a bigger picture of more subtle behaviours eg: headshaking, cutting off my movement in the stable at times - and if this is his reaction, I really don't want it to escalate any further.
 
Well I’ve just found a video on a thread of you doing similar with this horse.

I’m no expert in clicker training and from my basic understanding of it, I’m not anti-it for specific task oriented training if you hit a problem

But for messing around in the school with a huge warmblood ..... I think you just set this horse up to fail I’m afraid. Treat him like a horse and you a human so he doesn’t blur the lines.
 
Following this with interest. My friend has a pony who will randomly try to bite and has been known to kick out at you. He means business, ears back, pulls faces and doesnt hold back. We know he cant be trusted so he is handled to reflect that but would love to know what goes through his head, he has never been mistreated, has been checked for pain and is just a big pet really, lives with his little herd and isnt ridden (by choice, not necessity). Was bred by this friend and has never changed owners so we know his life story. Hes just not a very nice personality :(
 
I was walking and he was walking beside me, and then I jogged on for him to trot, with the queue word T-rot - he was beside me trotting and lunged sideways with his teeth, hence why he got me around the waist.
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I’m sure you’ll have observed horses doing this in the field, trotting or cantering side by side - one or both having a little nip at the shoulder or flank. It can be a dominance game, or simply a game.

I think you’re probably overthinking things. It can be very easy to give mixed messages to our horses, especially when working them at liberty. It’s not something I’ve ever really done (liberty work), because I think it takes a certain skill set to achieve things safely and with any real benefit. And unless you have the specific skills required I’m not sure I’d be working what you call a ‘dominant’ horse in this way.
 
I think it’s incredibly dangerous to do anything at liberty with a horse like this.
MyBoyChe said:
Following this with interest. My friend has a pony who will randomly try to bite and has been known to kick out at you. He means business, ears back, pulls faces and doesnt hold back. We know he cant be trusted so he is handled to reflect that but would love to know what goes through his head, he has never been mistreated, has been checked for pain and is just a big pet really, lives with his little herd and isnt ridden (by choice, not necessity). Was bred by this friend and has never changed owners so we know his life story. Hes just not a very nice personality :(
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Your friends horse and OP’s horse are just doing what horses do. They know that they can use their body language to control what happens and if they don’t want something to happen, they’ll use their body language to tell the owner to stop/get off. I’m a fairly placid person, so I wouldn’t own a horse like this. They need firm boundaries and to have a strong leader who they can respect. Think of them like a spoilt child, they’ll do whatever it takes to get their own way.
 
I’ve just looked at the video that you posted on an earlier thread. It is rather uncomfortable viewing , you are putting yourself in a very vulnerable position and I really can’t see the point of it.

I’m very glad that you were not badly hurt. Best park the clicker training as being unsuitable for this horse and start afresh.
 
Without being able to see exactly what happened, I would guess that it was something to do with your body language/position. I guess that he was telling you to get behind him, as he would do to another horse.

We do loose schooling/clicker training with 2 x 16 hh horses in the field, so I don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with what you were doing, except that perhaps doing it at trot, without a lead rope gave him the idea that he was in charge. Certainly I have never tried to trot alongside my loose horse ( a cob-type mare) and would be rather wary of ending up with a face full of back hooves, if I did it with some horses (probably not mine, it would take too much energy).

I do think you handled it correctly, you put yourself back in charge. I would just avoid any gait but walk when he is loose and you are alongside, as someone else said set yourself and him up to succeed..
 
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The link to the video is here should any one want to see it, I am not worried as I am not afraid of being wrong in giving it a try, you live and you learn :) : https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/video-clicker-training-beginnings.784712/#post-14180152

I am going to definitely halt the clicker training, it's clearly not the right thing for us or for someone who isn't as experienced with it as I am with this training method. I don't think I really realised how much he is like he is until I typed it all out here - I am also a chronic over thinker; this is very typical behaviour for horses, and he defintiely does dominate his field mate in this manner.

I will definitely get a pro out though, just to assess him and to give her opinion - there can never be any harm in learning the best way to deal with things should he display a similar behaviour in any other situation; and there is a woman who is great who already visits the yard on occasion. I have had success with stopping door kicking, head rubbing and gate rushing etc without this training just by handling him consistently and firmly, so I am confident that I am handling him appropriately on a day to day basis.
 
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The only time my old shettie ever used to bite was when she was trotting alongside me. I don't know whether she thought it was a game or what but it seemed to trigger her. Be curious to know if this is common.

I am not a clicker fan in general. I experimented with it with a few horses and while some loved it and got it, it made others aggressive and badly behaved. I am sure clicker fans will say I was doing it wrong but I did always teach 'no mugging' first. But it just seemed to wind food oriented horses up. At best they were too busy fretting about where the next treat was coming from to pay attention to me and at worst they got aggressive. I don't even like baited stretches. I can barely do up a rug without Amber expecting a carrot to appear underneath her and she gets mightily narked when it doesn't!
 
SusieT- I would agree.
I think it has something to do with the food.

A wise old woman once told me, horses do not see it as us "giving" them food. They see it as them "taking" it from us, she never fed tit bits and always placed food on the ground not from her hand.

I did clicker/similar with my boy when he was very young 3/4 but he became far to dominant over the food, nipping, pinning the ears.. We stopped clicker and the nipping did stay for a while until he stopped being fed from the hand and was feed from the floor alone. (after speaking with the wise old lady) He has never nipped since. I do however feed tit bits, but never with training.

I suspect it will be food dominance related.
 
My horse is really gorgeous but on occasion he will bite.
Don’t take it personally. I see-remember lots of similar my horse bit me posts.
Horses are horses. Don’t read too much into it. Forget, move on.
 
I did a few clicker sessions with Jay, just as an amusement. I dislike the way it seems to make most horses do ears back. He learned to fetch sticks, like a dog. It was amusing. More to the point, I got better at marking the moment where he did something right. I now use a 'good girl' rather than a treat.
 
Oooh.
I once had a pony on loan and decided to stupidly try groundwork via treats. All was good until one day i went into his stable and asked him to move over while i untied his empty net...he moved over but because he didn't get the treat he was so used to been rewarded with..well i turned around and he took a chunk out of my cheek ?...

So now i try and avoid all edible treats be it in training or just for giggles.
Anything edible goes in the feed bucket. Once bitten, twice shy. Literally.
 
Lintel said:
SusieT- I would agree.
I think it has something to do with the food.

A wise old woman once told me, horses do not see it as us "giving" them food. They see it as them "taking" it from us, she never fed tit bits and always placed food on the ground not from her hand.

I did clicker/similar with my boy when he was very young 3/4 but he became far to dominant over the food, nipping, pinning the ears.. We stopped clicker and the nipping did stay for a while until he stopped being fed from the hand and was feed from the floor alone. (after speaking with the wise old lady) He has never nipped since. I do however feed tit bits, but never with training.

I suspect it will be food dominance related.
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This idea of the horse "taking food" and not "receiving it", and its link to dominance is very interesting.

I regularly give a couple of treats at the end of a lesson.

Sometimes I take a walk up to the yard when I don't have a lesson; I talk to horses I ride, give them a stroke, and just before leaving give a treat if the horse has been well-behaved.

By this, I mean not kicking at the door, not grabbing at my clothes, not looking away or looking aggressive (this is rare, but there is one mare who will put her ears back and snap her teeth in the air at me... but after a few years I know that she never tries to make contact).
 
Thanks for posting the video.
Does he always shake his head at you like that? It can be a sign of dominance/ not accepting you. Also he often looks distracted, or looking for the treat. Yes you are doing some good work , don't beat yourself up, but at the same time he isn't totally "with you".
I do enjoy watching a lot of mustang training videos on youtube. There was trainer who is very good at livberty work, but with a dominant mustang had to change her methods very quickly after an emergency bail out. I would move away from any treat based training.
 
From the sounds of it I agree with AmyMay that it sounds like he got a bit over-excited & turned it into a game. I'm having similar issues with my youngster at the moment in that he wants to put EVERYTHING in his mouth at the moment (the arena surface, the fence, the leadrope, my arm, the end of my whip (which by the way he managed to bite a piece off of the other day but luckily did spit out... is this what having a labrador fees like?!). I'm not going down the clicker route with him at the moment & have professional help on hand. Mine isn't aggressive just is still learning about personal space (& this applies to how he is with other horses as well) & is well a baby... he still gets told "No" when he's being bitey as it's not a habit I wish him to continue.

If you want to continue down this road with him I'd get a professional involved & maybe ask them about target training? (I'm thinking about exploring the latter at some point for the purpose of teaching stretching exercises as apparently you can get a better quality stretch, maintained for longer if they're not snatching for the treat)
 
I have always, long before I knew anything about clicker training, used food treats, of one kind or another, to reward horses for the desired behaviour. I have never yet had a horse nip or mug me for food. I have bought a couple who were known to be biters but they soon learned not to do it to me - and no I didn't batter them senseless for it.

The TBx , who was proud of her bucket feed and hay when she arrived with us, would play 'which hand?' to find a mint in a closed fist - she was always right, she sniffed the hands and never bit.
And the Draft mare, who really didn't get on with her previous owners, used to play over the stable door here 'Whose turn is it for a kiss? Is it yours, no it's yours!'. She expected a treat in return for a 'kiss' but never even hinted that she might bite, we wouldn't have played the game with her if she had. She loved pretending that she was going to 'kiss' one person and then choosing the other at the last minute - it certainly amused us as well :D:D
 
See, I never treat by hand in any other capacity and have asked everyone on the yard to not tit-bit him also (he is stabled by the water tap) - but I thought that the clicker noise may have added more of a cause and effect (a human thought process, I know), plus you do the training to not mug as a beginning step. In retrospect this probably exacerbated the situation.

Thank you for all of your comments, I think I just need to take a step back and stop over thinking it. I do agree having read some replies that it is likely food oriented and that I was over thinking the cause - yes he likely isn't the sort of horse that should be trained this way but I think it's a simple case of excitment and food, and reverting back to herd behaviour with me.

Also thank you for sharing your experiences with it too, I was feeling like a complete idiot and beating myself up a bit, I won't lie! I just need to write it off, not do it again, and move on with the methods that are working, which is normal handling and boundaries.

dominobrown said:
Thanks for posting the video.
Does he always shake his head at you like that? It can be a sign of dominance/ not accepting you. Also he often looks distracted, or looking for the treat. Yes you are doing some good work , don't beat yourself up, but at the same time he isn't totally "with you".
I do enjoy watching a lot of mustang training videos on youtube. There was trainer who is very good at livberty work, but with a dominant mustang had to change her methods very quickly after an emergency bail out. I would move away from any treat based training.
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He did at times when he went into trot, but not every time and not before he bit me. I did know that this was a sign of dominance but clearly didn't take enough notice, why I didn't I am unsure! I agree with what you say re: not being with me.
 
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Ambers Echo said:
The only time my old shettie ever used to bite was when she was trotting alongside me. I don't know whether she thought it was a game or what but it seemed to trigger her. Be curious to know if this is common.

I am not a clicker fan in general. I experimented with it with a few horses and while some loved it and got it, it made others aggressive and badly behaved. I am sure clicker fans will say I was doing it wrong but I did always teach 'no mugging' first. But it just seemed to wind food oriented horses up. At best they were too busy fretting about where the next treat was coming from to pay attention to me and at worst they got aggressive. I don't even like baited stretches. I can barely do up a rug without Amber expecting a carrot to appear underneath her and she gets mightily narked when it doesn't!
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Thats interesting, and I've found exactly the opposite. My thuggy, food obsessed cob turns her face away from me in order to try and get food. This was the very first thing I taught her when I first got her 18 months or so ago. I've not reinforced it for all of that time, yet shes never forgotten. Her default setting was to go through pockets and mug people constantly. I've found the same with all of mine.

I'm crippled and probably incapable of running even if my life depended on it, so all of mine is done slowly, mainly standing and some at a walk which is something I've not thought about until just now and may be whats been the trigger for this. I cant imagine any instance where she would full on bite me though, but thats goes for any situation I can think of.
 
Don’t beat yourself up. He looks a lovely big horse and often it takes time to work out what works for each horse. I do a lot of liberty/clicker type training with BBP, including running with him at trot and canter. But we took time to build to the faster paces and on occasion he has tried to use teeth. When you watch him with the other horses you can see why, if they trot and canter together in the field and he is behind he will nip at hamstrings and elbows and generally be a pest. He isn’t a dominant horse, he is near bottom of the herd and yet he still does this. He isn’t trying to be dominant, it just triggers this sort of pesty play response. So I have to be really clear that even though I’m running with him I am not a horse, otherwise he would probably grab me like yours did to you. And this is established by doing lots of work at slower paced. My guess is yours wasn’t being aggressive but was just playing rough. If you do want to continue I would do more standard groundwork but you could still incorporate the click (or word) and reward at times. I work on traditional groundwork exercises, shoulder in, traverse, etc, but I still use a word to mark the right behaviour and then the treat when convenient.
 
I couldn't read and not post because you sound like a lovely caring Mum.
I must admit I never 'get' this kind of training but that's just a personal choice. I don't want to be treated as a member of the herd and I worry he sees you as another horse so nipping etc is just natural play.
I watched your video and it looked great but I was worried when you asked him to trot, his body language wasn't relaxed.
I think I'd just go back to walk exercises but see what your professional says and I'd be interested to hear what they say.
 
Leo Walker said:
Thats interesting, and I've found exactly the opposite. My thuggy, food obsessed cob turns her face away from me in order to try and get food. This was the very first thing I taught her when I first got her 18 months or so ago. I've not reinforced it for all of that time, yet shes never forgotten. Her default setting was to go through pockets and mug people constantly. I've found the same with all of mine.
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I did use clicker to teach Ginny 'ears forward face away' as she was aggressive/territorial when we got her so I was teaching her not to be. That did work well. But just as a 'unintended consequences' story - a year after we phased the clicker out I was falsely reassured that she was happier/better than she actually was because she had her ears forward a lot. Till I looked more closely and realised she was just doing 'ears forward face away' and how she looked did not reflect how she actually felt.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I couldn't read and not post because you sound like a lovely caring Mum.
I must admit I never 'get' this kind of training but that's just a personal choice. I don't want to be treated as a member of the herd and I worry he sees you as another horse so nipping etc is just natural play.
I watched your video and it looked great but I was worried when you asked him to trot, his body language wasn't relaxed.
I think I'd just go back to walk exercises but see what your professional says and I'd be interested to hear what they say.
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Thank you, what a lovely thing to say/read. I will update once I have a session with her - she’s very busy so it may be a short while.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I did use clicker to teach Ginny 'ears forward face away' as she was aggressive/territorial when we got her so I was teaching her not to be. That did work well. But just as a 'unintended consequences' story - a year after we phased the clicker out I was falsely reassured that she was happier/better than she actually was because she had her ears forward a lot. Till I looked more closely and realised she was just doing 'ears forward face away' and how she looked did not reflect how she actually felt.
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It might sound hippy but I encourage my animals to tell me what they're feeling. I expect manners while we're working and handling but their stables are their own space and if they want to make a grumpy face that's fine but I'll try and find out why they feel it necessary.
I'd rather just ignore an unwanted behaviour.
You can't train happy.
 
Having been bitten badly by my horse of a lifetime, caught mid belly, winded, lifted into the air by the skin on my stomach and dropped on the floor violently, be very careful.
That was completely my fault, she went for another horse, but I was there and in her field, at dusk, I was in the way/blended in, i still have the scar and can still remember the pain vividly.
 
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