My towing advice - any safety issues especially B licence towing ?

ROG

ROG

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On this and at least one other site I have been 'brought to task' on my towing advice especially for the younger drivers towing on a B licence.

The main point has been where I was asked if towing with something like an estate car was legal and I have confirmed it was.

There has then been a little 'backlash' in regards to safety in using such a vehicle for towing a trailer with live animals in it

Do they have a point or is it just a personal concern of theirs without any foundation ?

Does anyone know of any safety issues or incidents which have occured when towing a horse trailer without using a 4X4 type vehicle?

I do not like giving advice if that that advice is legal but unsafe !!
 
When i've looked up posts on here about single trailers/b licenced towing people who have done it seem positive and I haven't heard of any accidents. Will be interesting to see what folks sat though.
 
When I was a kid, most people towed with cars, including my own family. At one time only 4x4s were Landrovers and hardly anyone had them. People didn't just tow with big cars like Volvos, Granadas, etc, they towed with mid-sized cars such as Escorts and Astras! Admittedly, there are a lot more big and heavy horses about these days, heavy cobs and tall warmbloods which were't common when I was little, most people had ponies or small horses and I don't remember of anyone who had any trouble with towing with such vehicles, except ruining their clutches!


If we're talking about towing one horse or a pony or two, then I can't see how towing with a large car is a problem.

Saw a Golf not long ago towing an IW stock box, have to admit that itdidn't look good!
 
When I was younger my Dad towed my IW (with one horse) with a Mondeo, without any issues, although after getting stuck in a couple of fields, he did switch to a 4x4.
 
Only someone I know with a vectra estate and double Ifor with 16.2 ID. Said she was just nearing the limit. Burnt her clutch out! Slight inclination leaving yard to busy main road
 
When I was younger my mum would tow with a volvo estate, old one, it was well up for the job.

I have a landy, and its ok. however my friend tows us sometimes with her peugeot 406 estate and it tows better then my freelander!
 
Back in the day,when we used to tow our dinosaurs to shows,behind estate cars. The normal problem was reduced clutch life. You needed at least a 2 litre engine(non turbo) to avoid problems with hills,but in a hilly area you realy needed the landrover. Not because of its 4x4 capability,but because of the high/low range transfer box. The biggest problem with an estate car(and some 4x4 s) is the softer suspension which can add to the risk of snaking. But as I have said many times before on here Everybody with a trailer should have some form of anti snaking device fitted.On the plus side ,conventional cars tend to be fitted with better road tyres. cross country tyres can be made to slip and potentialy cause a jacknife on tight hairpin bends whilst on the road. Road tyres give much more grip whilst on road. Regardless of the towing vehicle,the hitch height must be correct. If the tow ball is too low you risk creating a snaking problem again.......To sum up, 4x4 is irrelevant, and before criticising someone for towing with an estate car, take a look and see if you have an antisnaking device fitted . If you dont, then get one fitted ,because you are a far greater danger to everybody ,than an estate car driver.
 
I was towing my horse in a 403 using a normal car (not even estate :eek:) but it had adequate towing capability and in all honesty I found it much easier and felt safer driving this set up than my previous set up of a jeep cherokee and ifor 510 which I did feel snake quite a lot.
 
I was at a low level showjumping competition last week and there were LOADS of volvos and estate cars and even a couple of saloons. Some towing 406s and other single pony trailers but some towing 505s. No idea how legal they were but clearly that's how they tow, even in the heart of Dorset PC country!

I felt a bit over-carred in my Jeep Grand Cherokee!!
 
Interesting thread. I am new to towing, and have a b licence, Vauxhall Vectra 1.9cdti and an IW 401. I did a lot of research to check I was all safe and legal, including running things by ROG. However, even today I have heard others saying my set up isn't safe and I'm putting my horse at risk. It's upsetting to me but I know full well I am within the rules and I haven't had any problems so far (touch wood). So I've come to the conclusion that these comments are made by people who have no idea about weights/rules etc (and are perhaps a little jealous as they don't have transport? )
 
dumpling said:
Only someone I know with a vectra estate and double Ifor with 16.2 ID. Said she was just nearing the limit. Burnt her clutch out! Slight inclination leaving yard to busy main road
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That's to do with her driving surely!

ROG, I think people prefer to tow live animals with 4x4 and until recently I have never even thought about towing with anything else.

Circumstances changed and I now tow with an estate with no problems and I don't feel the car struggles. Of course, wet fields are a no-no so you need to know the limitations. You need to think carefully, but don't over-think it.

Oh and many farmers hauling several stores to market tow with old estates at Frome market. Some people tow with dodgy 4x4's and some tow with super duper machines.
 
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Blythwind said:
Interesting thread. I am new to towing, and have a b licence, Vauxhall Vectra 1.9cdti and an IW 401. I did a lot of research to check I was all safe and legal, including running things by ROG. However, even today I have heard others saying my set up isn't safe and I'm putting my horse at risk. It's upsetting to me but I know full well I am within the rules and I haven't had any problems so far (touch wood). So I've come to the conclusion that these comments are made by people who have no idea about weights/rules etc (and are perhaps a little jealous as they don't have transport? )
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Dont be upset, its not personal or jealousy (I hope) its just a difference of opinion. And these opinions are quite stongly held.

The argument is around whether just because something is legal, does that mean it is sensible and safe.

Rog would argue that if its legal and within the manufacturers limits then its OK. A few of us (and plenty of other people from your post) think it isn't. We believe that towing livestock is a different ballgame to towing static loads. For that reason we dont think people should push the limits or tow with ordinary cars.

Its not normal towing that is the problem, its how well your car would cope if something went wrong. Examples of this would be the trailer snaking, trailer brakes failing or the horse going nuts and destabalising your trailer. Would the car be able to hold the trailer and get you out of trouble. This is when some of us believe you should be well under the maximum for the vehicle.
 
Blythwind said:
Interesting thread. I am new to towing, and have a b licence, Vauxhall Vectra 1.9cdti and an IW 401. I did a lot of research to check I was all safe and legal, including running things by ROG. However, even today I have heard others saying my set up isn't safe and I'm putting my horse at risk. It's upsetting to me but I know full well I am within the rules and I haven't had any problems so far (touch wood). So I've come to the conclusion that these comments are made by people who have no idea about weights/rules etc (and are perhaps a little jealous as they don't have transport? )
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From what I have read it sems more of a concern from those who tow with 4x4s rather than a concern from those who do not tow at all

Perhaps anyone who is concerned over this issue would like to post those concerns in this thread so that those that they think it will affect can give them instant feedback

Stability seems to be one of those concerns especially if the horse is playing up so perhaps someone who tows with a car or estate who has had this happen can inform us of any such issues please

Experience seems to be another issue especially if a newish driver is towing so perhaps if a newish driver who tows a horsebox trailer is on here perhaps they would like to inform us on that issue please

So far I have not read any such safety concerns either first hand or by association from those that have posted here or elsewhere but there is still plenty of opportunity for that to happen
 
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ROG said:
From what I have read it sems more of a concern from those who tow with 4x4s rather than a concern from those who do not tow at all
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Not really, Blythwinds comments were from people who do not tow at all, not 4 x 4 drivers :p:D


Blythwind said:
So I've come to the conclusion that these comments are made by people who have no idea about weights/rules etc (and are perhaps a little jealous as they don't have transport? )
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rockysmum said:
Dont be upset, its not personal or jealousy (I hope) its just a difference of opinion. And these opinions are quite stongly held.

The argument is around whether just because something is legal, does that mean it is sensible and safe.

Rog would argue that if its legal and within the manufacturers limits then its OK. A few of us (and plenty of other people from your post) think it isn't. We believe that towing livestock is a different ballgame to towing static loads. For that reason we dont think people should push the limits or tow with ordinary cars.

Its not normal towing that is the problem, its how well your car would cope if something went wrong. Examples of this would be the trailer snaking, trailer brakes failing or the horse going nuts and destabalising your trailer. Would the car be able to hold the trailer and get you out of trouble. This is when some of us believe you should be well under the maximum for the vehicle.
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Not even a 4x4 would make a difference if trailer is snaking or brakes failing with a full load. That has to do with kinetics and nothing to do with weights.

A trailer/caravan can snake whether or not animals are moving inside.

I have spent 7 years on UK motorways. I drive for a living. I have seen all sorts believe me. A rangerover upside down on the central reservation with a sheep trailer on its side. Dead sheep on the road, live ones getting run over the other side. I've seen great big toyotas jack-knifed on sliproads towing caravans.

I just don't think it's safer when you tow with a 4x4. Safe towing is safe towing. You have to know your limits, you have to know how to get out of trouble.

The whole "too light in front" argument does not wash with me. Two horses in a 510 is still heavier than your average disco and if the horses had a disco in the trailer it would affect whatever was towing them!
 
I tow a Cheval Liberte 2003 with a Nissan X-trail, so not a full size 4x4 and I really rate it. I also tow a caravan (750kg) with the same car. The trailer is much more stable on the road, even with 2x 14.2hh ponies, than the caravan. We load the caravan really carefully, but I'd much rather tow the trailer. I've also towed with a Rover 800 series (1500kg towing limit, one pony) and the unit was not particularly stable and prone to snaking. I've also towed with a Ssanyong 4x4 which again didn't tow particularly well. I've come to the conclusion (in my experience) that stability and thus safety totally depends on the car and the unit you are towing.
 
As I said before, I am new to towing so have limited experience. OH and I practiced with it empty until we felt confident enough to put horse on board. We then took my boy out who travels well and is solid as a rock. We are just starting to take my girl out who young, so is less used to travelling and less stable on her feet. We haven't had any problems so far and the car doesn't move etc. however we have only been going to nearby venues and kept distances short. I can definitely see both points of view so will follow this thread with interest (provided people don't make it personal!)
 
My yearling loads great but travels like a little monster! I'm sure she heaves back & forth in there like a rocking horse.

I have towed her with the Nissan Patrol (a big truck) and a lighter L200 and you can feel the back-pull in both vehicles.

It's annoying. But thats it.
 
my brother had a mondeo (saloon) and towed an old rice richardson trailer with 2 big round bales of haylage in it. he was going down a hill and the car in front suddenly slammed his brakes on which meant my brother had to brake hard as well, the trailer started to snake a bit but the car and trailer stopped with no further incident. i don't know if that was because of the capabilities of the car or if it was because my brother knew how to handle a trailer doing that (HGV driver, class 1) but either way no accident happened.
 
When we first bought a vehicle to tow with, my husband did his research and bought a Landcruiser. He was most dischuffed when we went to our first show and most boxes were towed by estate cars or larger saloons.
Now, from what I have seen lately, there seem to be more 4x4's towing than cars.
 
I will follow this thread with interest. I have a Galaxy 2l diesel and am looking at trailer v box. I will be travelling either 2 x 11hh or 1 x 15hh. I had presumed that not being 4x4 my car would need to be swapped but i do too many work miles to make a 4x4 practical. Am now wondering whether my car would in fact be OK.
 
Used to tow my pony about in a Peugeot 405 saloon car, 1.9 diesel engine. Damn good car, small trailer....never had issues, never pulled over, never had trailer overtake whilst I was braking and never burnt the clutch out.

Why did I get a 4x4? Well, OH bought his 17.2 so we decided we needed a bigger truck to do the job!
 
It all comes down to the issue of snaking .The brakes on the kind of trailer we are talking about ,is designed to exert a SMALL push on to the towing vehicle to operate the brakes. The brakes apply to a level that maintains that force ,all the time that braking is needed. Absolutely no problem providing that the towing vehicle can resist that force. Any normal car should be able to cope. What is a problem however is that because the hitch is an undamped ball joint, various other pitching and yawing forces can be exerted on the towing vehicle ,without adequate damping, there is the risk of a self reinforcing harmonic motion being set up. This is snaking,and energy is stored in the motion until it is often sufficient to flip over the vehicle or trailer...4x4 s are no less immune to this than conventional cars, they are just generaly heavier and it is harder to get them snaking. BUT GET YOUR 4x4 INTOA "PERFECT STORM" SITUATION and it will flip over as easy as any vehicle on the road. A horse shifting its weight as you hit "tramlines" on the motorway could be all that is needed. A tyre blowing, a sudden evasive manoever. Lots of causes. The only way to prevent this is to absorb that energy that is being stored,at source,at the hitch, and the device that does it is an anti snaking device.
 
If there is a difference towing live animals and empty caravans, I'd like to see the proof.

I think its nonsense and snobbery.

As long as you are legal. The law and learning how to tow properly is what people should worry about. No vehicle however massive is going to stop you snaking. Slowing down, will.

eta that and what Mike said.
 
Just to clarify, I have never said I think the towing vehicle needs to be a 4x4, just something which is up to the job.

A good example of this was the first time I ever travelled a horse, 45 years ago, not me driving. The towing vehicle was my friends dads Rolls Royce :p :D;) No idea if it was legal, I expect it was as it was very heavy, but fun to arrive at shows in.

If anyone is towing with cars, have you checked that the trailer noseweight is within the tolerances of the car. Also is your tow bar adjustable so you can level the trailer. If the trailer is pointing upwards then under braking the trailer will push the back of your vehicle upwards causing you to jack knife. If the trailer is pointing downwards it can negatively affect the vehicles steering under braking. Also is your car OK to put the tyre pressures up to the 40psi or so which is recommended when towing, at least thats what mine recommends.

The other point is about where the towbar is fixed. Modern cars dont have a chassis as such, fine with a newish car, not so sure about an old one.
 
tallyho! said:
If there is a difference towing live animals and empty caravans, I'd like to see the proof.

I think its nonsense and snobbery.

As long as you are legal. The law and learning how to tow properly is what people should worry about. No vehicle however massive is going to stop you snaking. Slowing down, will.

eta that and what Mike said.
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Whilst I thank you for your agreement with my comments ,there is a difference when towing livestock and this is due to the fact that they will tend to sway with the motion of the trailer ,any motion,including the onset of snaking,and the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast, with a relatively high centre of gravity, is an absolute nightmare dynamicly. Also remember that horses have thin legs and fat bodies ,all the weight is high up,quite unlike any normal static load.This makes a trailer much easier to tip over, added to which ,even if the trailer only partly tips ,several hundred kilograms crashing into the side wall will send it over in a flash.
 
I say if that is the case... get a better bloomin' trailer Mike! (or a better horse that can stand up and balance) :D

I have been in trucks towing 5 cows before and none of them are tied up, all jostling like wild animals. The trailer is relatively low compared to a horse trailer but not that much.

If what you say happened often, farmers would give up hauling.
 
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Mike007 said:
Whilst I thank you for your agreement with my comments ,there is a difference when towing livestock and this is due to the fact that they will tend to sway with the motion of the trailer ,any motion,including the onset of snaking,and the swaying of several hundred kilograms of beast, with a relatively high centre of gravity, is an absolute nightmare dynamicly. Also remember that horses have thin legs and fat bodies ,all the weight is high up,quite unlike any normal static load.This makes a trailer much easier to tip over, added to which ,even if the trailer only partly tips ,several hundred kilograms crashing into the side wall will send it over in a flash.
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A friends horse was killed when a trailer snaked then flipped taking the tow vehicle with it, the vehicle was a huge 4x4 towing massively within capability. It was a terrible tragedy but the snaking was nothing to do the tow vehicle and the size of he vehicle did not help save the situation.
At times when I drove my jeep and 2 horse trailer I felt the trailer snake and my heart would go into my mouth, I can't say I felt that once when I was using the car / small trailer set up, for some reason the dynamics just seemed to work better.
 
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