natural horsemanship

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eahotson

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Why is there all this attack on natural horsemanship? I am not meaning any particular school of it just natural horsemanship really.I had a natural horsemanship instructor who taught me, by body language and being assertive, how to make my bargy pushy little cob a pleasure to handle on the ground.She doesn't subscribe to any particular method, just taking different bits from different trainers, including Parelli actually. She didn't try to sell me any different bits of tack and didn't make any mention of left or right brain.She showed me by riding what I was missing in the teaching department (she trains with a Portugese classical trainer) she definately uses bits although she is not keen on whips, OR carrot sticks
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.She rides the REALLY naughty ones, the buckers, rearers and bolters, so I don't think we can accuse her of lacking courage.I watch the AI and BHS trained people on our yard (quite a few) being hauled along the ground by their horses.What does that make them?
 
I think you will find that it is not NH in general, just the one sector the P one. It comes from the over priced goods and the apparent silly games and inability of many said practitioners from dealing sccessfully with horses.
 
Hmm?
I agree that their DVD's/membership is quite pricey but there again so are a realy fab pair of Jods, a lovely pair of Ariat boots, a snuggly new Fal rug so why aren't people moaning about that. If the Parelli's have found something which people enjoy and are willing to spend the money on that what really is the problem? No one makes people spend money on it and if people do so without really looking into it and making sure they do it properly then more fool them, its not Parelli's problem it is the people who are looking to buy their way out of a problem rather than work at it.


I reckon that there is way more to it and I would love to know what bad experiences peopple have had with Parelli that makes them so negative, please don't let all this negativity be because of heresay or even worse the assumption that anyone spending money on Parelli is 'made to do it and being taken advantage of'.

So come on guys, I've asked before...what is your problem with Parelli and what is your opinion based on???


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Well I think it is a very fair question. From watching Parelli on TV, I don't like:
- Pat's derogatory manner towards non-parelli approaches, he is constantly talking about how dressage people whack their horses in the mouth, etc. If you have something positive to say, get on with it, don't spend your time telling us what is wrong with others.
- Some of their so called 'gentle' methods are terrible. Cue very heavy person on small TB-type horse with a neck line, using ALL his body weight to pull the horse to a halt and Pat claiming this is amazing because he has no reins. There are other ways of hurting horses other than socking them in the mouth.
- Linda's riding is terrible, she has no understanding of collection and her parody of lateral movements is just that - a parody. I am deeply suspicious of anyone who tries to teach others but does not have a feel themselves for what they should be trying to achieve.
- I am not at all certain their methods actually help people who are desperate for help with their horses. There are some clips on YouTube of people really messing up their horses. If you add the cost of all the bits and pieces they sell you, this is what makes it look exploitative, as opposed to Ariat boots or a Fal rug which are good value for money.

Personally I think handling lessons are invaluable and have paid my instructor to show me how to lead a horse, how to load a horse and how to deal with a bargy horse. I also use clicker training, so I have no problem with training on the ground as long as it is well thought out, effective, kind to the horse and helpful for the handler, none of which Parelli seems to be. That's my opinion though...
 
Thanks for that..perhaps some of the 'showmanship' you get at these events does not do the methods justice, have to say I have the same experience of Monty Roberts but would not disrespect anyone else who wanted to try his methods. I think that is what the problem is on here. Rather than commenting as you just have about what you have seen and not liked some people just seem to slag off anyone who has anything to do with Parelli and to have created a rather unpleasant and predjudiced view of them. Some go even further by having a 'Lets take the p**s' post which just seems wholey unpleasant, much more for a PM than for an open forum.

It is a shame that you have found Parelli not to be kind to the horses or helpful to the rider but I am 1 person who has found it useful and fun and have a super horse who enjoys it.

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I wish I knew!
Lack of understanding? Heresay? Genuine bad personal experiences?

I haven't got to the bottom of that yet and few of the antis seem willing to explain. Hopefully we'll find out.

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Well maybe it's the nature of a forum that people can get a bit heated and some topics become popular for a bit of a piss-take. Having said that, people have made points similar to mine so they have engaged in discussion rather than dismissing it all.

Personally, I see big differences between all these approaches. For a start I think that many practices in the UK are a million miles apart from some very rough breaking in and handling practices elsewhere in the world, so there is less of a problem to start off with. Then some of these approaches talk about the general management of horses, e.g. turn-out, company, etc. which I am perfectly in agreement with. Then there is the general question of whether people need instruction and help with handling their horses as well as riding, which I would agree wholeheartedly with. When I bought my first horse I had had riding lessons and stable management lessons, but these were about mucking out etc., no one had explained how to lead a horse in the field if it's pulling you along, or how to get one horse out of a field when the others are playing up, etc. I think help with these kinds of issues and knowledge of how to train and adjust a horse's behaviour is invaluable. Now in this field many people make many different claims. Many experienced horse people will do things that are very similar to aspects of Parelli or Monty Roberts anyway. Monty Roberts seems to have a personal affinity with horses and I find his methods much more sympathetic and interesting. My main problem with them is my own shortcoming at 'reading' my horse's body language quickly enough to be effective.
Better stop now as this is turning into a huge post
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I think as you said, the best approach is to take parts from a variety of methods and get what helps you. I got into Parellli for a bit of fun, not to solve any problems and so on. Learning from others, and having an instructor or knowlegable friend is vital in the early stages of horse ownership as you described from your experiences. But gradually some people start to want more, to ask why and this for me is where Parelli, or any of the so called 'natural' methods come in. Parelli does expect you to work very quickly and be extremely dextrous (I can't use my left arm anywhere near as good as my right though so am very clumsy if I have to!) and can be quite confusing. I never took it beyond basic ground work but can see the attraction to those who do, just can't give it the time or brain power needed!

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I wish I knew!
Lack of understanding? Heresay? Genuine bad personal experiences?

I haven't got to the bottom of that yet and few of the antis seem willing to explain. Hopefully we'll find out.

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Well, I've watched both Parelli and Monty Roberts demos - and unlike most, I've seen the preparation too.
I have also seen first hand (haven't we all, unfortunately) the poor novicey people who buy in to it...and end up with horses with no respect, playing 'games' on the ground because they are too frightened to ride.
Although, if they aspire to ride like the Parellis - that's no bad thing
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If you have any eye/feel/basic knowledge of dressage, and a horse's correct way of moving in terms of static and dynamic conformation, you would be able to see why many of us don't 'follow' these methods.
On Sat night, for example, I watched a demo by Carl Hester, Stephen Clarke and Christoph Hess (sp?) - and if I mentally compare that to the NH/Parelli demos I've seen, they are like a circus in comparison.
And why do the Parelli/NH people always have to resort to droning on about how cruel classical methods are - that really puts me off them, too.
Will that do for now?
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I think everyone has their own oppinions so no disrspect to all you "traditional" horsepeople. i know Parelli gets put down for alot that it purely isnt,
Money - you dont expect to learn something like sign language or French free of charge? you would pay for lessons and training. So why do people have a problem with having to pay to learn to comunicate with their horse better?
Middle Aged - People have said its for middle aged women who cant do things propperly etc. Well i'm 14 been riding since i was 4 had horses all my like so im surely not middle aged OR cant do things propperly as i compete fairly succesfully.
Pat and Linda's Capability(as said earlier in this post) - well they obviousley can ride, i think any one who see's them can tell that. Its quite ridiculous to say they cant.
Pat being rude about dressage riders - I've seen them live a few times and yeah he's not keen on the whole yank kick aproach but he certainly doesnt go on about it as i dont think Linda(as a dressage rider herself) would be too impressed.

Sorry for ranting, but i LOVE playing with my horses naturally, and my mum came off our big brood mare 4 years ago this september and is still on crutches/ in a wheelchair so what else is there she could do with the horses and i sure as hell know she'd never give up the horse lifestyle.

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I think this is an interesting post, I don't know much about the dreaded 'p' word other than the bits and bobs I've picked up on here but I personally subscribe to the view that understanding the way horses interact and communicate with each other through body language can only help us in manaing their behaviour both under saddle and in hand. However, I do think a lot of the Monty Roberts stuff is just really common sense in animal handling dressed up and made fancy for a fairly ignorant audience... not necessarily a bad thing as many people these day do, sadly, NEED to be educated on how to handle animals.

My boss who is a fairly wise old chap says a lot of the NH stuff is just the stuff true old 'horsemen' knew - these days more people are looking after their horses themselves though, often coming into it in later years when they have more income - and a lot of the old knowledge has been lost. So Monty Roberts and the Parellis kinda saw a gap in the market and exploited it... although I dont' like the way the Parellis try to make out that NOT using their methods is cruel. I think this is destructive.

I have done join up with quite a few horses - I honestly do not believe that it affected my relationship with them long term although it was great fun - but I think the process of joining up, looking for the signs that the horse is ready to submit, moving around the horse in a way that encourages him to see you as the leader etc - has taught me a lot about how to handle myself around horses. But then I handle a lot of horses, everyday - unlike many of the parelli devotees who only ever handle their own horse - so maybe it is different for me.

There is place for NH - the idea of understanding and communicating with horses better - in much the same way as the 'dog whisperer' helps owners better understand their dogs. But the thing with Parelli is it seems to be marketting 'tricks' rather than techniques without much explanation of what is happenning which means it is difficult to adapt the technique to suit individual animals - the one size fits all approach to NH will never work, using the principles of NH to approach every new horses might. JMO though.
 
So is it the way they ride that is the issue for you?

I have to say that I have never been one to get on with the riding part as I just can't be bothered to spend the time. I am quite happy with my riding although I have to say that I have no idea what you mean by 'static/dynamic'etc. I just like hacking and doing the odd dressage test or other events when time allows.

Do you find issue with the ground work?
And..do you consider that all/the majority or just a minority of those who get involved with Parelli have problem horses and are ultimately too scared to ride?

I can certainly see your point with novicey horsey people getting into trouble, but that's normally because they have branched out into horse ownership without the knowledge, experience or backup needed and quite honestly they would be looking to be in that position regardless.

Have to say I don't see 'classical methods as cruel and have never suggested that they are...interestingly some of the parelli haters have suggested they hate it becuase it is cruel...I can't figure it out. My own opinion is that some PEOPLE are cruel and whatever method they use will result in upset and intimidated horses and that this is not the fault of the method but the person.

Thanks though S

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Well you don't have to be a Monty Roberts/Parelli devotee to rip people off or ride/school badly. On our yard we have several BHS type people. One perfectly intelligent albeit very novice lady has a schoolmaster which was at the local BHS approved riding school.She is all over the place when she rides and so are her hands. She has been having very regular lessons from a BHS instructor from that school and hasn't improved one iota. She is being encouraged to jump and no one mentions her lack of seat. One BHS instructor schools the horse once a week for her. SHE moans that he SUCH hard work and she WON'T be doing much. He is STILL not off the leg. Their only idea is to hit him and if that doesn't work, hit him again and harder.It isn't working and they are only getting away with it because he is a saint.
 
Well spoken Caz, and a fantastically mature response! Nice to read that from a 14yr old, may give some others something to think about. Hope your mum gets on the mend and continues to enjoy her horses from the ground...that's how I got involved (horse out of action though, not me!)

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I am a supporter of Natural Horsemanship and use it every day, however I am not a lover of Parelli due in part to his attitude to others and due mainly to what he produces in his followers, a system is only a good system if it produces results in its users. I used to run a livery and training yard and had several liveries who decided to try Paralli, I let this go for a few months but then had to ban it for the sanity of the horses who in the main were driven round the bend by their owners, and yes I understand that you say we should not blame Paralli for what his followers do but I have to as a dressage trainer take responsibility for what I teach my riders and if they are doing something wrong then I have not helped them the way I should have done so it is my fault.

I liked Monty Roberts and thought he was one of the best until he kept backing horses in his demos as fast as he could and asked the audience to time it, WHY, what is the rush, I would have liked him more if he had shown us 3 - 4 horses at each stage of the breaking and not tried to do the whole lot in 20 mins. I witnessed the results of three of these poor horses at one demo who went in happy horses ready for backing and came out traumatised and stayed traumatised for months taking their owners a long time to regain their confidence and having to back them all over again.

The only other one I have witnessed is Richard Maxwell who is absolutely brilliant, clear, kind precise and understandable, not gimmicks, nothing done in a hurry for an audience, if horse not ready for what he wants to show he doesn't show it. I use his methods and they never fail.
 
I'm guessing then that the issue here is the 'distance learning' idea. This places pretty much all the responsibility on the learner to check if they are doing it right and the instructor is not contactable if you need help. I know when it initially came out there where lots of support groups and instuctors around who you could turn to. I went to a Ross Simpson Parelli weekend and found the support there which was always there on the end of a phone and by video if needed but sadly he moved away to do his own thing.
Have to say, the reason I didn't take it any further myself was because I didn't want to do it without the support. Perhaps I assume incorrectly that others would feel the same and only go to the level they are capable of.
As for the comments of Pat Parelli, I haven't really seen much of his live performances so can't comment on his attack of other ways but if he does genuinely do that then it is a real shame and incredibly ignorant.

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So is it the way they ride that is the issue for you?
<font color="blue"> Not solely, although I was, shall we say, less than impressed at the riding skills exhibited (although I think I was more bothered by the extreme signs of tension/anxiety shown by the demo horses (their own in particular). I guess if you are not looking for it, you won't see it. </font>
I have to say that I have never been one to get on with the riding part as I just can't be bothered to spend the time. I am quite happy with my riding although I have to say that I have no idea what you mean by 'static/dynamic'etc. I just like hacking and doing the odd dressage test or other events when time allows.
<font color="blue"> If I can suggest that you read up on static conformation (the way the horse is built) so that you understand the skeleton, the muscles, ligaments and tendons at a basic level, you'd probably find it fascinating. Dynamic conformation is, I suppose, best described as the way the horse moves - again, fascinating even if you are a 'happy hacker' like me. </font>

Do you find issue with the ground work?
<font color="blue"> Yes. I have seen many people using NH/Parelli type methods in yards without success... </font>
And..do you consider that all/the majority or just a minority of those who get involved with Parelli have problem horses and are ultimately too scared to ride?
<font color="blue"> I think it is often a last resort for the incompetent (I don't mean that unkindly) who have either reached the point where they are too scared to ride, or have had an accident with their horse. Doing 'games' and 'groundwork' can make a human feel more in control pyschologically, although I don't think it does much for the horse. I think horses recognise dominant (leaders) and submissive (followers) humans very easily anyway.</font>

I can certainly see your point with novicey horsey people getting into trouble, but that's normally because they have branched out into horse ownership without the knowledge, experience or backup needed and quite honestly they would be looking to be in that position regardless.
<font color="blue"> Agreed, but I think they would be better off getting lessons/practical experience from a BHS or classically trained/experienced horse person - someone qualified by examination or experience, to help them. Perhaps those who see themselves as 'instructors' should be made more aware of the gap in the market for teaching basic handling/ownership skills to novice horse-owners? </font>

Have to say I don't see 'classical methods as cruel and have never suggested that they are...interestingly some of the parelli haters have suggested they hate it becuase it is cruel...I can't figure it out. My own opinion is that some PEOPLE are cruel and whatever method they use will result in upset and intimidated horses and that this is not the fault of the method but the person.
<font color="blue"> I agree. It p1sses me off when NH/Parelli people make sweeping statements - for example that unlike the traditionalists, they don't believe in tying a horse's leg up to break it (I have read that, I think) - excuse me, but I've broken a few, and never tied a leg up in my life!
Likewise the 'bits are cruel' nonsense - it's the rider's hands that are the problem... </font> Or the 'we never whip our horses' - no, but beating them with a rope is pretty close in my view.

Thanks though S

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<font color="blue"> Welcome.
As a final point, though, I have to dispute the riding abilities of a few of the P/NH folks....unless they've had lessons from a decent instructor since I saw them
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Hi,


I agree with alot of the concepts of natural horsemanship and I am definately not anti.

I have been to lots of demonstrations of natural, classical and all other types of training.

Natural Horsemanship varies greatly depending on which path you are following. I have watched some of the top horses and in my opinion they do everything they are told with such things as just a rope around their neck. Very impressive in one respect. However to me these horses look dead eyed and so de-sensitised that they have lost all their personality. I like to see horses who are 'natural' horses and retain some of their spark, fun and have a presence.

The basics of teaching your horse to move away from pressure, backing and the games are very good but these are things you can teach your horse using a variety of methods and what works for you.

I have seen people stop riding and spend months trying to perfect the games on the ground before they feel they are capable of getting on the horse, and then they feel they must ride in a rope halter and saddle pad. This is sad !!

Having said this one of the best demonstrations I have ever seen was from the french natural horsemanship people (la cense). They worked with troubled competition horses and the results were superb with horses retaining their presence and personality.

So I guess there is good and bad in everything !!
 
couldn't agree more.

I have given up judging both s/j and dressage at riding club level as I was becoming more and more horrified at the standard of some ( quite a lot) riding. Tense horses being socked in the mouth for no other reason than the rider had no balance. So called dressage riders spending hours riding in with spurs and big sticks. S/j riders pony club kicking their horses round the course ( a big problem in my book if you have large spurs on) I could go on but you get the picture.

Then at the end of the day watching people with no clue trying to load said horses back into lorries or trailers. Again big sticks, lunge whips shouting screaming and usually very stressed horses.

I am not saying all riding club level people are like this at all but those of you who do go out and compete on a regular basis will know exactly what I am talking about.

I think the main problem these days is the hundreds of "experts" out there who are only marginally more knowledgable than the " pupils" they are teaching. Some people just love to tell others what to do and it is the world of horses according to them!

In my book NH is as I once heard ( cant remember who said it ) so old its new again - and if the Parelli's or monty roberts or mark rashid or any of the other highish profile nh people out there can give an insight into the way horses think and act to people who are struggling with their horses because they either don't know or have been given bad advice by so called self confessed experts (not) surely thats no bad thing.

After all - them who knows, knows - and them who don't are likely to find themselves in trouble at some point.
 
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Well you don't have to be a Monty Roberts/Parelli devotee to rip people off or ride/school badly.

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Not sure where you think I said this in my post. Actually thought my post was fairly positive about Monty Roberts... like I said, what i DONT like about Parelli is the way they make out theirs is the ONLY way which I think is extremely destructive. don't actually know enough about the details of what they do to have an opinion on it in its specifics.

The BHS has plenty of faults itself - the main one being IMO that they tend to teach riding/handling of horses "by the book" rather than teaching people to 'feel'.

Personally i think the problem lies not with the BHS or with NH but with the competativeness between the two. I know the BHS rules and regulations and 'correct ways of doing things' as I have taken the exams. Likewise I've read bits and bobs of Monty Roberts stuff, watched horses interacting, talked to 'old school' horsemen and thought about the way animals use body language to communicate. I use a mixture of of all these things in the way I handle horses. In my opinion every horse is different and what works for one won't work for another. It seems to me that a lot of BHS and NH principles seem to suggest methods for fixing 'a certain problem' rather than 'this individual horse'.

Interesting how defensive you appear to be about this issues, another NH person who does not have room to hear a different view?

anyway, JMO
 
I think ground work DOES matter. My NH instructor says a lot of loading problems are really leading problems. One of our BHS types has a horse that won't load and she is missing shows she wants to go to.ALSO lets face it. You go to catch your horse to bring in to ride/drive/play games with, whatever. If it drags you hither and thither before you even get to the stable this is not a pleasant or confidence giving scenario and no its NOT just the incompetent novices horses, its the instructors horses. I bet John Whittakers horses don't drag him around though.
 
No idea! I'm pretty sure that it has risen in its use in the past decade.

I do find it a bit odd though and would be interested in what Non-natural horsemanship was?

Not sure it is that useful a term myself.

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I think Pirani was suggesting that those opposed to Monty/Parlli due to the money thing were perhaps unrealistic and that infact there are lots of people out there ripping people off who have nothing to do with natural horsemanship, I don't think she was disagreeing with you.

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No idea! I'm pretty sure that it has risen in its use in the past decade.

I do find it a bit odd though and would be interested in what Non-natural horsemanship was?

Not sure it is that useful a term myself.

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soooo.....would i, god forbid, be discribed as NH because i can load a pony that hasnt been loaded ever..in less than 5 minutes???

i can halter and lead a previously "wild" pony in less than 24 hrs??

have a saddle and bridle on a previously nervous 3 yr old??

i truely HOPE not................
 
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I think ground work DOES matter. My NH instructor says a lot of loading problems are really leading problems. One of our BHS types has a horse that won't load and she is missing shows she wants to go to.ALSO lets face it. You go to catch your horse to bring in to ride/drive/play games with, whatever. If it drags you hither and thither before you even get to the stable this is not a pleasant or confidence giving scenario and no its NOT just the incompetent novices horses, its the instructors horses. I bet John Whittakers horses don't drag him around though.

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Right, I was following the discussion until this post, Pirani - you lost me.
You appear to be replying to Araminta...but she didn't mention groundwork?
From 'ALSO lets face it' I think you are telling us that you NH instructor can't catch her horse to bring in and ride/drive/play games? And contrasting this with John Whittaker's superior horsemanship skills as being a traditional type?
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No idea...as I said..I'm not entirely sure what the term really means, simply that the term's use has been rising and that I'd be interested to know what a non-natural horsemanhip way was.

However as you are so sure you aren't one you may be more able to shed light on this matter!?

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soooo.....would i, god forbid, be discribed as NH because i can load a pony that hasnt been loaded ever..in less than 5 minutes???

i can halter and lead a previously "wild" pony in less than 24 hrs??

have a saddle and bridle on a previously nervous 3 yr old??

i truely HOPE not................

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I think I spy a book coming on... perhaps with a range of back up DVDs and a few local demonstrations? You could like TOTALLY clean up
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