Never thought I’d be writing this :(

[Keira 8888]

This every time I'm afraid. Next time you will have learned from this and next time will be better if you follow the advice on here. Please ask someone you really trust to come with you and don't let anyone give you the "I have lots of other people interested" or any other sales talk.
What a horrible experience for you but sadly it is more common than you might think.
There are relatively inexpensive "first horses" out there but if you want a safe fun first horse for mum/daughter share then you may need to up your budget or wait until the winter.
Don't give up but no more buying unseen! It has been done by some of the very experienced people on here and even they are super careful and really know the pitfalls and one or two have been caught out over the years.

Thank you xx we will wait for the winter now, it has been a learning experience but the casualty has been Prince. The poor horse - it’s actually literally heart breaking

 

[ihatework]

Oh boy you are right - so right. I completely see this now. This poor horse - I wish I could throw money at the problem and “save” him. But I can’t. I have to put my daughter first. And live with the fact that really - quite honestly - I have failed this horse

You haven’t failed this horse.
The people who knew something was wrong, re-microchipped him and put him into the dealer network have failed him.
You have been super naive but you have also been the victim.

Hearing the backstory then my money is on this horse not being in a rideable condition even after vetwork. Having seen the way things generally pan out I’d be calling the hunt and swallowing the financial loss, and feeling petty shit for the horse at the same time.

 

[Keira 8888]

I'm so sorry this has happened. I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone.

Hind sight is wonderful and all the rest, but I just have to say this, as so many are getting caught out buying from Ireland...
There are plenty of dodgy dealers in Ireland who specialise in buying unsafe or unsound horses and selling on to the UK at a massive profit.

UK buyers are buying cheap horses in Ireland thinking they are getting a bargain, but good horses are not cheap in Ireland.
There are lots of very reputable dealers in Ireland but their horses are not cheap.

OP if the horse is otherwise very nice to be around I would think it is something medical like Kissing Spines. I would use the double microchip situation to your advantage and try to get the seller to refund and collect. If the seller won't I would mention in a friendly manner that perhaps you should investigate the duplicate microchips with the Department of Agriculture to see can you get further info on his history. Hopefully put the sh1ts up the seller that they are about to be caught out on whatever dodgy situation they created.

This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...

 

[MiniMilton]

This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...

I haven't dealt with kissing spine myself, but from what I have heard from friends is it requires surgery with unknown results. I don't think it's a route you should go down if you have the option to return the horse

 

[[131452]]

Agree with others, you need the vet. If his hind end looked sluggish he may well have a problem there. This sounds like a pain related issue for sure.
Whatever you do, please don't pass him around. "Difficult " horses like that eventually end up in bad hands where someone thinks they can beat the horse into submission.
My 5 yo appy became dangerous and we eventually found, in addition to his stifle OCD a severe spinal compression in his neck . He was PTS.
If the vet finds something serious like that all I'd say is that there are fates worse than death for sick and injured horses

 

[[131452]]

This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...

Depending on severity , kissing spine can be treated successfully with surgery. They can do just a ligament snip or they can go and full on create more space between the vertebrae. I've known a few horses have the ligament snip and do very well afterwards.

 

[splashgirl45]

Agree with others, you need the vet. If his hind end looked sluggish he may well have a problem there. This sounds like a pain related issue for sure.
Whatever you do, please don't pass him around. "Difficult " horses like that eventually end up in bad hands where someone thinks they can beat the horse into submission.
My 5 yo appy became dangerous and we eventually found, in addition to his stifle OCD a severe spinal compression in his neck . He was PTS.
If the vet finds something serious like that all I'd say is that there are fates worse than death for sick and injured horses

no, she needs to get her refund and the horse (sadly) needs to go back.....the loser in this is the horse...ideally it would be nice to expose the dealer for being crooked, get the refund and keep the horse and if he couldnt be fixed PTS but real life isnt like that..

 

[ycbm]

You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.

They bought it at auction a few months before. They're probably bin end dealers. They don't give a shit about him. They want him back to sell him to another poor sucker.

Poor bloody horse.

Keira if you can afford the loss PLEASE put this horse out of his misery or he will likely be passed from pillar to post for whatever miserable years he has left

I understand if you need the money back, you're in an unwinnable position here. I feel very, very sorry for you.
.

 

[Chinchilla]

If he was my horse, and I acknowledge I am in no way, shape or form really qualified to be commenting on such a matter*, I would NOT - for the sake of the animal's welfare - be returning him to the seller for fear they'd swiftly sell him on to the likely detriment of both horse and new owner.

A vet, for a full work up and/or euthanasia, I think is the only sensible course of action. The latter may be the cheaper option and give you more options for horse ownership in future (if this hasn't put you off) but many health problems are fixable.. Many aren't, and it still requires dedication and experience to rehab, bearing in mind the horse might remember the pain and have behavioural problems which need rectifying too before it can be a riding horse.

Good luck going forward whatever you end up doing, though. I do feel sorry for first owners whose experiences don't go well.

*But it's the internet so you can't stop me commenting lmao . Also I haven't read the whole thread so might have missed something.

 

[ycbm]

Depending on severity , kissing spine can be treated successfully with surgery. They can do just a ligament snip or they can go and full on create more space between the vertebrae. I've known a few horses have the ligament snip and do very well afterwards.

Don't even think about it Keira. It's not a thing a first horse owner should take on. I've done one and know others really well.
.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Is he insured?

 

[doodle]

Also is he 16? Or much older with a handy new microchip and passport to cover it up? Yes the correct thing to do is send him back for a full refund. Not sure I could do that tho for the sake of the horse.

 

[Bellaboo18]

This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...

There's no knowing this is the problem... although ulcers are highly likely and pain from somewhere.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Also is he 16? Or much older with a handy new microchip and passport to cover it up? Yes the correct thing to do is send him back for a full refund. Not sure I could do that tho for the sake of the horse.

I know I couldn't but as an inexperienced horse owner I could hardly blame OP.

 

[Keira 8888]

You haven’t failed this horse.
The people who knew something was wrong, re-microchipped him and put him into the dealer network have failed him.
You have been super naive but you have also been the victim.

Hearing the backstory then my money is on this horse not being in a rideable condition even after vetwork. Having seen the way things generally pan out I’d be calling the hunt and swallowing the financial loss, and feeling petty shit for the horse at the same time.

Thank you for saying that - that means so much to me right now x

You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.

what situation do you mean?
He arrived underweight with a dull coat. He is now thriving with care. They weren’t upset or worried at all until I mentioned the two microchips. This horse has had the very best of care with me, he was obviously sold on too quickly by these people - they can’t possibly vouch for him! They bought him from a dealer and sold him on straight away with no care as to where he was going!

 

[Wishfilly]

I think for you, getting the refund is probably the best way forwards. It sounds like they have done something dodgy with the duplicate passport and are worried about being caught out.

A few years ago, I used to work for an organisation that issued horse passports, and I definitely saw some people who had been deliberately scammed, partly through a duplicate passport. Personally, I'd always be wary buying a horse with a very recent duplicate passport- I know passports get lost/damaged and there are honest reasons for needing a duplicate, but a very new one would make me wary.

If you're curious, I'd ring up whoever the passport is with, with the microchip numbers and see if they can tell you anything.

I agree in future buying unseen is not the way to go, but I think that if you are happy to take on an older horse, you should be able to find something safe, reasonably sound and sensible in budget.

ETA: I actually think long term, returning horses like this is the way to go. It may not be the best thing for that individual horse, but the less dealers get away with scamming people, then the less they are likely to do it, which long term will be better for everyone.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Thank you for saying that - that means so much to me right now x

what situation do you mean?
He arrived underweight with a dull coat. He is now thriving with care. They weren’t upset or worried at all until I mentioned the two microchips. This horse has had the very best of care with me, he was obviously sold on too quickly by these people - they can’t possibly vouch for him! They bought him from a dealer and sold him on straight away with no care as to where he was going!

If he was underweight and now thriving in less than 4 weeks he's definitely been having too much feed for the work he's been in.

 

[doodle]

I know I couldn't but as an inexperienced horse owner I could hardly blame OP.

Gosh no I am not saying I blame the op. I totally agree with you.

 

[TPO]

Kiera, how long have you had him? How many days since he left ireland was it that he reared up?

HHOers, how long does dope stay in a horses system?

It just seems strange that the horse was ok to hack with a novice, feed changes, strange rash/hives and then a "professional"* rides him and he rears.

I don't know how long you've had him but taking any of the dealers changing accounts of his history he has had a lot of changes to adjust to in a very short space of time. Then a feed change (a lot of horses have issues with alfa) and the outbreak of hives. Could it have been something as simple as the girth rubbing/hurting if the hives are in the same area?

* not slighting the experienced rider you put on. Sometimes different riders aren't always liked by every horse. I've seen absolutely plods lose their heads when "better" riders have gotten on and tried to make the horse do something that it can't physically do/doesn't understand and/or not like what could be classed as "strong" riding. You appear to be a lightweight rider so could the fact that a (bigger/stronger?) man got on be a factor?

I'm obviously not excusing the fact that the horse reared. Its far from ideal for a nervous novice. I can't remember what I read now, did you witness it happening Kiera? Did anyone else witness it? Was it a genuine rear up? Some people tell about big rears, and they possibly feel big, but watching from the ground it wasnt really that bad.

It's tricky, and I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, because someone more experienced might have seen it about to happen before it did (& redirect) and spotted the triggers.

The very sensible and adult thing to do is 100% to return him, get the refund and do better know that you know better. However I've still not mastered the sensible and adult thing ?

You can't know what you dont know and that's the tricky bit. You literally wouldn't know who to listen to if there were experienced folk on your yard because so many can talk the talk... most of us have been stung in one way or another having been taking in by someone.

I've missed a few of your threads but will go and read.

How is he kept on the yard? How much turn out on how many acres with how many other horses? What is the grass like? What's he fed? Was he worm counted? Had he had his teeth done? Have you had a saddle fitter? How does his bit and bridle fit? What did your vet do when he was out? Has he had his hooves done since you got him?

Having a horse is a money pit. I can fully appreciate that if someone has paid X for a product and been sold Y that they would be unhappy and want their money back. I would just worry about him going back to the dealer who has done this (if infact they have done anything. It could be the upheaval/feed change/tack fit/skinny horse now getting food and feeling full of the joys/any other 100 things).

 

[misst]

There's no knowing this is the problem... although ulcers are highly likely and pain from somewhere.

At the end of the day this is an older TB type who would seem to be uncomfortable at best. He came in poor condition from what someone on here has described as a bin end dealer. He may well be unsound, he may well have KS and/or ulcers. He has obviously been passed around and was sold to an inexperienced but loving home.
To fix a horse like this would take time money and a huge amount of experience. The horse would probably never bit fit for purpose. For a professional it might be possible for an amatur especially an inexperienced one it would be almost impossible. The OP needs a horse for herself and her daughter. The horse ideally needs to be PTS but I fully understand that this is not the OPs fault and financially this is a huge ask.
I honestly think suggestions on how to fix him are a bit of lost cause and the poor OP should not be starting down a road of huge expense - even with insurance, huge heartbreak and no fun for her daughter or herself. Sorry to be so negative but there are worse things than PTS

 

[AmyMay]

What a dreadful situation.

I’m another who wonders if you could stand the loss and simply have the poor creature put down.

Do you know if he raced OP?

 

[Bellaboo18]

At the end of the day this is an older TB type who would seem to be uncomfortable at best. He came in poor condition from what someone on here has described as a bin end dealer. He may well be unsound, he may well have KS and/or ulcers. He has obviously been passed around and was sold to an inexperienced but loving home.
To fix a horse like this would take time money and a huge amount of experience. The horse would probably never bit fit for purpose. For a professional it might be possible for an amatur especially an inexperienced one it would be almost impossible. The OP needs a horse for herself and her daughter. The horse ideally needs to be PTS but I fully understand that this is not the OPs fault and financially this is a huge ask.
I honestly think suggestions on how to fix him are a bit of lost cause and the poor OP should not be starting down a road of huge expense - even with insurance, huge heartbreak and no fun for her daughter or herself. Sorry to be so negative but there are worse things than PTS

Yep there are worse things than pts but I don't think that's what OP is thinking of doing.

 

[Honey08]

Poor Prince. Having to go back to the horrible dealer and probably be sold on again to someone who can’t cope.
Not meaning to be horrible, but next time follow your head not your heart. Don’t buy unseen. Have it vetted. Follow up any dodgy double microchip warnings! Set yourself up for success, not failure. And the horse.

 

[Keira 8888]

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.

 

[Keira 8888]

Poor Prince. Having to go back to the horrible dealer and probably be sold on again to someone who can’t cope.
Not meaning to be horrible, but next time follow your head not your heart. Don’t buy unseen. Have it vetted. Follow up any dodgy double microchip warnings! Set yourself up for success, not failure. And the horse.

You are so right. I have learnt my lesson the hard way. Poor Prince I’m going to get this sorted if it kills me (let’s hope it won’t !!!)

 

[misst]

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.

Just be aware you may not get all the answers and he probably is not fixable - if there was a quick fix someone would have done it. It's really hard to stop once you go down this road, it's always "just one more try/investigation/week/month" I know I've been there and spent thousands on ahorse on box rest for 9 months. I should have PTS at the start and all these years later I still feel guilty.

 

[fusspot]

I am so sorry to read everything you are going through.Having your first horse is meant to be so special.Please don’t beat yourself up,Sadly this reflects quite a few people within the horse world these days who are only interested in the money and have no regard for you or the horse.Unfortunately it has happened now and there is no going back and is a lesson learned....you have now learnt never to buy unseen and to have somebody with experience go with you....and you have also learned how there are quite a few people in the horse world who have no scruples and should say, sorry but this horse is not suitable for you.

I would be getting to the bottom of the hives,I bought a mare that developed a bad rash which turned into hives,she got very evil whenever you put your leg on and was very uncomfortable with it and ended up being Allergy tested and was allergic to nearly everything-cost a fortune having to have her desensitised and even than had some reaction to some things.

I think you said it’s very underweight,it could well have an allergy to Alfa-if that’s what it’s on-but a lot cannot tolerate Alfa and it can blow there brains so would be removing that straight away.Of course,some people who have a difficult horse starve it so that it has no energy to play up,when the new owner feeds it up and it looks and feels better,the bad behaviour starts.

The two microchips would be of concern to me and the fact there stories do not match up.Even if you don’t have a 5 Stage vetting,it is always worth getting bloods taken so if as in this situation, the horse starts playing up,you can run the bloods to see if horse has been sedated or had painkillers to mask anything.

It does all sound pain related and potentially Kissing Spine,some not so bad ones are treatable but if or if not simple, or if they need surgery, the rehab is time consuming and really needs somebody with a lot of experience and potentially sending it to a Rehab yard for a few months to get it right-this is costly and you cannot guarantee that the behaviour from the horse being in pain won’t be learned and used in future.

Your other issue now is also that if the horse needs treatment to try and get it right....somebody has to eventually get back on board....your YO won’t now and you will then have it on your conscience if somebody does get on and it goes over backwards and potentially paralyses or kills somebody.

Sadly you are in a catch 22...in all honesty, you should send the horse back and get your money back.Trouble is, you then can not guarantee the horses future.If you don’t return the horse if they agree a full refund, you are taking full responsibility for the horse and could potentially end up with a horse that will highly likely be PTS or a field ornament at best and no financial return from it.

We all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them,what’s happened has happened and you now need to put all that behind you and move on and try and get the situation sorted so you are not out of pocket...you must not let your heart rule your head..Good luck.x

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I totally understand you wanting to get to the bottom of his problem get a good recommended vet to do a proper work up, it might be worth mentioning where yiu are someone on here may know of a good vet you can use, I would also get both of his microchip numbers and look into that as well, please keep us updated.

 

[ycbm]

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.

Keira, you're a good person, but sadly it's more likely this approach will break your heart. I really advise you not to put yourself through it.
.

 

[Keira 8888]

OP, has this rearing behaviour just started? I’m a bit confused about timelines. How long have you had him and when did the rearing start?

It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x