ozpoz
Well-Known Member
7
Never thought I’d be writing this :(
- Thread starter Keira 8888
- Start date
Frano
Well-Known Member
Has anyone tried leading him to and from his field following another horse. Does it make a difference?Perhaps he has never worked on his own. Some horse always get worked with others in a group, and if you try to take them out on their own they are scared,nappy or worse.Be interesting to look into the two passports.
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
If he's a sweet guy to handle and generally good unless ridden perhaps a bloodbank would take him
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Did you log back in after months of inactivity just to bitch at the OP, because that's how it looks.
OP is devastated, and accepts that she made a mistake purchasing unseen from what sounds like a bin end dealer, who only had the horse a matter of weeks. She doesn't deserve to be patronised and made to feel guilty for not being able to cope with the behaviour the horse is demonstrating - when she made it clear to the dealer that she was looking for a safe, sensible older horse for her and her young child. The fault lies entirely with the dealer, who won't give a flying f*** about the horse, let alone be "upset and worried".
Being nasty to someone who is inexperienced, and has been taken for a ride is not ok. Save that for the people who should know better, but carry on doing wrong by their horses because they don't give a toss/are convinced they are right, despite all evidence to the contrary. OP has learned a harsh lesson, and is trying to figure out what to do to ensure this horse doesn't end up in a worse situation. Try and be nice.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Oh, I really feel for you OP, and Prince...what a pants situation.
Personally I would take their reaction to you knowing about the microchips and run with it - for them to change their attitude so quickly when that was mentioned I would bet they have done more than commit passport fraud.
With Prince, since I don't think you really want to return him - treat the hives and let them settle, take him off feed just in case and then see what you have, and what story the double microchip tells. Don't spend a lot of money on vet investigations for the rearing, treatmenta for a lot of possible conditions would not be fair on him or you since it could have been going on for years. Having him pts could well be a kindness in itself.
Personally I would take their reaction to you knowing about the microchips and run with it - for them to change their attitude so quickly when that was mentioned I would bet they have done more than commit passport fraud.
With Prince, since I don't think you really want to return him - treat the hives and let them settle, take him off feed just in case and then see what you have, and what story the double microchip tells. Don't spend a lot of money on vet investigations for the rearing, treatmenta for a lot of possible conditions would not be fair on him or you since it could have been going on for years. Having him pts could well be a kindness in itself.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Keira I am so very sorry that you are in this situation. You have nothing to be ashamed of, someone took advantage of your inexperience, but regardless most long term horse owners have at least once made a mistake and bought a horse that does not work out for one reason or other, I know that I have. You have been doing your best to do right by him, keeping him on full livery with an experienced YO, paying for him to be ridden by an experienced rider...... we can only do our best.
I totally understand your reluctance to send him back. I do think however that you have to accept that you and your daughter should never ride this horse again, the risk is simply too great. At his age the chances of finding an experienced home who want to work with him is virtually 0, so if you really do not want to send him back I think your best option might be to have the vet look at him and if he is comfortable in the paddock look for someone who wants a companion horse on long term loan. In this case I would be seriously looking at getting at least some refund from the seller.
One thing did strike me. You said "He is a different horse coming back than he is leaving." So perhaps not pain related, but you can not be certain, as it could also just be that by this stage he has warmed up and has less pain. The real problem is that you may never know, as if the vet finds nothing it can mean that there is either no pain, or that the source of the pain is just not discovered. So really if you do decide to keep him do so with your eyes open and knowing that you may have a hard, and potentially expensive. road ahead. If you send him back the dealer won't do extensive investigations, so in this case he will either be sold on or pts, probably the first of these 2 options.
Having a paddock ornament for potentially 10+ years is an expensive business. This may be controversial, and I am sure that many people will tell you that it is your decision alone, but I would also try to discuss with your husband and agree on the course of action. A good friend of mine has an 8 year old in retirement livery, and I know that it has caused many disagreements over the years. In my opinion it is better if he can at least feel that he has had a say.
You are not the first person to be taken advantage of in this way, so do not beat yourself up about it. Good luck, and really I am so sorry x
I totally understand your reluctance to send him back. I do think however that you have to accept that you and your daughter should never ride this horse again, the risk is simply too great. At his age the chances of finding an experienced home who want to work with him is virtually 0, so if you really do not want to send him back I think your best option might be to have the vet look at him and if he is comfortable in the paddock look for someone who wants a companion horse on long term loan. In this case I would be seriously looking at getting at least some refund from the seller.
One thing did strike me. You said "He is a different horse coming back than he is leaving." So perhaps not pain related, but you can not be certain, as it could also just be that by this stage he has warmed up and has less pain. The real problem is that you may never know, as if the vet finds nothing it can mean that there is either no pain, or that the source of the pain is just not discovered. So really if you do decide to keep him do so with your eyes open and knowing that you may have a hard, and potentially expensive. road ahead. If you send him back the dealer won't do extensive investigations, so in this case he will either be sold on or pts, probably the first of these 2 options.
Having a paddock ornament for potentially 10+ years is an expensive business. This may be controversial, and I am sure that many people will tell you that it is your decision alone, but I would also try to discuss with your husband and agree on the course of action. A good friend of mine has an 8 year old in retirement livery, and I know that it has caused many disagreements over the years. In my opinion it is better if he can at least feel that he has had a say.
You are not the first person to be taken advantage of in this way, so do not beat yourself up about it. Good luck, and really I am so sorry x
[131452]
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He was probably quieter at first because he was in poor condition. And quite likely had bute in his system.. A dope would wear off in 24 hours but the anti inflammatory effect of bute could help him up to a few weeks. A couple of weeks of good feed and no bute and he now has the energy to show you how he feels.
I made the comments about KS surgery in general, not because I think that's what I think you should do.
If this was me, there is no way I could send the horse back. I would spend some money on medical examinations first. And depending on the findings,would seriously consider putting him out of his misery.
If you manage to send him back , I guarantee he will be sold on and quite possibly beaten into submission. It would be kinder to put him to sleep.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
yes you are so right. I have learnt so much from thisSO much, poor Prince. I am ashamed of myself
You have no need to be ashamed. You have tried to do the right thing with the information you had.
You have not failed this horse, someone else has.
To be fair, if you can return to sender and get a refund, I would do this. No, it is not the best thing, probably, for Prince. But, if you don't then the dealer gets away with it again. They have profited from Prince.
I have a rule here, once a horse is under my guardianship, then I do my very best. But, they are not under my guardianship the instant money changes hands. They audition at home. He failed that audition, he is not the horse you were sold. I would not pass him on to just anyone, not to another cheap dealer for them to make money. But, yes, I would send hm back so the 1st dealer didn't make a profit from me.
I know you say you bought the same saddle he was ridden in before, but you don't say who fitted it? You can get 3 saddles from the same model/manufacturer, and thy can all fit slightly differently. More so with a used saddle. Even more so if the saddle is brand new and then beds down.
This is good news if you don't send back. Be aware that the horse isn't covered for anything other than external injury for 14 days after insuring, with most companies.
I would also think of justice for all the other bin end horses. By giving profit for Prince to the dealer, you are funding another 'Prince' to be purchased and handed round. I would hand back if you can.
If you do decide to keep, I would reiterate my advice from post 2, to send to a very experienced yard. I am talking someone with a high throughput of youngsters, a backing and breaking expert, likely someone who is also competitively experienced. I would look for personal recommendations on here. That is likely to be £200 plus a week for the calibre of placement you need to be making such important decisions. They will be able to assess tack, manners, recommend vets interventions, take Prince to a vet hospital if that is where you decide to go. They will have excellent farriers, a physio and the entire support team. I would bank on 6-10 weeks for a thorough assessment, so likely the whole price of the horse.
If they recommend PTS, then you can do so, knowing that an expert has explored every sensible avenue. I say sensible, as sometimes it can be like going down the rabbit hole. At some point you have to draw a line.
As I said, I would send back to the dealer, and put that in writing pronto, as you have only 30 days to do so. It will save another horse from being sucked into the system.
I also echo giving your husband a voice in this. I appreciate he is angry. Mr Red loves my horse, but we (me and my horse) had a miscommunication on Friday at a pole work clinic and I fell off. Mr Red was furious, the horse was no longer welcome, the horse is evil, the horse blah blah... she is welcome, it was just one of those things, she is generally very sweet, we just had a miscommunication...Mr Red worries about me. It is all forgiven now, I understood that it was just him blowing off his worries.
I imagine it is worse for your OH, as there are children involved for which he is also responsible. It is also worse for your OH as he knows nothing about horses and was relying on your knowledge. That said, I would be pretty pissed if he wasn't talking when you needed his support!
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Jellymoon
Well-Known Member
I actually feel really sorry for the horse and I’m surprised at the number of people telling you to send him back. Send him back to what fate I wonder? The people you bought him from sound very dodgy indeed and what do you suppose they will do with him? He’s 16 for goodness sake and clearly in some serious pain.
Yes, you did a very silly thing, you know this, but it’s not Prince’s fault.
I had a similar thing once some years ago, bought 3 connemaras unseen from Ireland, and two were fantastic. One we still have, the other was super talented and went to a lovely Eventing home, but the third poor pony was very thin and unwell with worm damage and was rather difficult to deal with. My more experienced friend told me to send him straight back, but I couldn’t, he looked so sad and worried, so I tried to get him right, but after 3 years, had to have him pts. I would never have sent him back. I didn’t pay very much for him (like you £2500) I considered him a rescue.
I think you have to deal with the situation you find yourself in for the sake of the horse. Either spend out to find out what is wrong with him, or have him pts. This really is much kinder than shipping him back to an unknown fate. Is losing £2500 going to make you destitute?
Then I would reassess. If you have a pony mad 9 yr old, you really need a nice pony. Not a 16.3 ex hunter with serious issues.
Yes, you did a very silly thing, you know this, but it’s not Prince’s fault.
I had a similar thing once some years ago, bought 3 connemaras unseen from Ireland, and two were fantastic. One we still have, the other was super talented and went to a lovely Eventing home, but the third poor pony was very thin and unwell with worm damage and was rather difficult to deal with. My more experienced friend told me to send him straight back, but I couldn’t, he looked so sad and worried, so I tried to get him right, but after 3 years, had to have him pts. I would never have sent him back. I didn’t pay very much for him (like you £2500) I considered him a rescue.
I think you have to deal with the situation you find yourself in for the sake of the horse. Either spend out to find out what is wrong with him, or have him pts. This really is much kinder than shipping him back to an unknown fate. Is losing £2500 going to make you destitute?
Then I would reassess. If you have a pony mad 9 yr old, you really need a nice pony. Not a 16.3 ex hunter with serious issues.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Keira please don't think this option would be easy or trouble free. There aren't many loan homes available for a TB type of that size, on loan you could find him returned to you with 30 days notice at any time, 'loan' horses not infrequently disappear and are sold on as riding horses (I have had one), and loan and cheap horses are sometimes badly treated and need to be taken back (I've had one of those too).
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
If the conversation with the dealer was by phone, I would send a text along the lines of,,
"Hi, after our conversation last night about Prince, where you told me you had only had him for 2 months and had got him from an auction, it is clear he was mis-represented as you had told me he had been (eventing?) and used in a riding school and was quiet. He has shown dangerous behaviours to me, as discussed, and is not suitable for the purpose sold, that is as a quiet first horse for a novice and a child to learn on. Moreover, I have checked and he has 2 microchips and a recently applied for passport, which I have not yet looked into.
As Prince was misrepresented, and is not fit for purpose, I reject him. Please refund me, after I have received the funds he will be available for collection. "
I am not a solicitor, but I would send something along these lines.
"Hi, after our conversation last night about Prince, where you told me you had only had him for 2 months and had got him from an auction, it is clear he was mis-represented as you had told me he had been (eventing?) and used in a riding school and was quiet. He has shown dangerous behaviours to me, as discussed, and is not suitable for the purpose sold, that is as a quiet first horse for a novice and a child to learn on. Moreover, I have checked and he has 2 microchips and a recently applied for passport, which I have not yet looked into.
As Prince was misrepresented, and is not fit for purpose, I reject him. Please refund me, after I have received the funds he will be available for collection. "
I am not a solicitor, but I would send something along these lines.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
This is a very good point
scats
Well-Known Member
Just be aware that many insurance companies will only cover accidental injury for the first 1-3 months. I got stung by this, I was one day inside of the 3 month period with a horse and was landed with a £3k vet bill the week before Christmas.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I've been wondering about this. It's not impossible for a horse to have two microchips for valid reasons, of course, but the reaction of the sellers is key. Their reaction seems to show that they have committed passport fraud and thought the chip would never be scanned for. The usual reason for that would be to clock the horse as lower mileage, like a car, but your dentist says he's younger than 16, not older. So the other plausible reason would be he's stolen and they know it and he needed a name change. It might be worth spreading his picture around Facebook to as many Irish connections as possible, and if you do return him I would do that as soon as you have their money in your bank account. You don't need to make any accusations, just 'does anyone know this horse?', in the hope of alerting someone who cares about him. You could also try and trace the second chip, but people don't always update ownership. If he is stolen, that's the best way of getting justice for Prince.
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Whilst I agree with you, if you keep him, it is simply funding another poor horse into this system. No way you can stop them all, at least this way you prevent them making a profit out of Prince and actually make them a loss by them having to pay transport. If everyone did this then they would eventually go out of business.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for this Auslander - I really do appreciate it. That persons post was pretty harsh - and their concept of how worried and upset the dealer must be is pretty strange!
lamlyn2012
Well-Known Member
This is a nice thought. I think there is an age limit though unfortunately,but it’s worth looking into.
Can you investigate the hives further? We lost a horse with hives within two days. I’m not saying you will lose your horse, just that it may be worth looking into.
I’m sorry you are in this situation and wish you all the best with whatever you decide to do for this poor unfortunate horse.
MiniMilton
Well-Known Member
I suspect the same as you I guess. I would think he's a TB bought for meat money and then a sporthorse passport applied for with unknown breeding. I cant think if another reason why there are 2 microchips unless he is stolen.
OP I admire your huge heart, but as a fellow mother with children of similar ages I really can't see you ever riding that horse confidently even if you spend an absolute fortune getting him fixed (if that is even possible)
If return is an option then please strongly consider it, and please do not let your decision be swayed by any sort of misguided guilt or pity.
If every single buyer who gets conned by a dealer returns the horse, the dodgy dealers might eventually realise its more hassle than its worth scamming people. By taking on this horse the dealer is getting rewarded for their actions.
The dodgy dealers in Ireland specifically targeting UK buyers drive me mad as it is just ruining the reputation for Irish sellers. It needs to stop.
MiniMilton
Well-Known Member
If the OP has a pit of money then it's all wonderful to keep the horse to save him. But for many owning 2 horses just isn't possible and this may mean the OP can never buy another horse to ride.
I would agree with you thoroughly though regarding the type of horse. Surely a 15h/15.2 cob type would be a better choice for a novice mother child share. If the OP returns this horse they might have a chance to get a better suited horse in the future.
TPO
Well-Known Member
I am normally one of the first to advocate pts for an animal in pain, dangerous or incurable/degenerative condition.
We know that this horse reared and that is far from ideal but there is no indication that this is pain related.
There could be numerous reasons:
Horse arrived in poor condition and as he is now described as looking well it's a fair assumption that he has had a lot of feed.
Horse now feeling better and will have more energy
Horse has been in a very low level of work and has been receiving additional calories
Horse hasnt had tack fitted (saddle, bridle, bit)
Horse hasnt seen dentist/physio/saddle fitter/farrier
Ulcers are very common especially in ex racers.
Horse has had a lot of upheaval in the past 3mths.
We dont even know that the horse is in any pain. Given that the basics haven't been covered it's a leap that this horse has some painful condition.
Sending the horse back wont stop these dodgy dealer. People (all people not just OP) need to somehow be made to realise that you should have a certain level of knowledge and experience before buying a horse and therefore they would know to avoid these bottom feeding dealers. I really hope OP bought this horse off her own back and wasnt encouraged by "experienced" friends because those arent the kind of friends that you need advising you.
Personally I couldnt send a horse back to that unknown fate. There are some fairly simple things that can be addressed regarding feed & treating as an ulcer horse, MOT with dentist/farrier/therapist, giving the horse a bit of time, get an instructor for ground work and to train OP how to handle and work horse from the ground, get saddler/bit/bridle fit and then reassess having gotten to know horse better with aid of trainer/therapist.
Literally nothing has been tried at all and the good care has side effects like excess energy.
I dont know how long dope lasts but 3wks seems too long to me? He hacked out fine with OPand then first reared (iirc, could be wrong) with "pro" male. Who continued the ride and horse was then "easy".
It's so hard because with experience things would have been done differently and signs would have been spotted. I dont mean this cruelly but OP is an unreliable narrator because they cant know what they dont know.
I concur that it is a mess and far from ideal and I would rather pts a healthy horse than return it to dealers but literally not a single investigation has been done into this horse and even the basic management (feed) could be addressed and provide a radical change.
We know that this horse reared and that is far from ideal but there is no indication that this is pain related.
There could be numerous reasons:
Horse arrived in poor condition and as he is now described as looking well it's a fair assumption that he has had a lot of feed.
Horse now feeling better and will have more energy
Horse has been in a very low level of work and has been receiving additional calories
Horse hasnt had tack fitted (saddle, bridle, bit)
Horse hasnt seen dentist/physio/saddle fitter/farrier
Ulcers are very common especially in ex racers.
Horse has had a lot of upheaval in the past 3mths.
We dont even know that the horse is in any pain. Given that the basics haven't been covered it's a leap that this horse has some painful condition.
Sending the horse back wont stop these dodgy dealer. People (all people not just OP) need to somehow be made to realise that you should have a certain level of knowledge and experience before buying a horse and therefore they would know to avoid these bottom feeding dealers. I really hope OP bought this horse off her own back and wasnt encouraged by "experienced" friends because those arent the kind of friends that you need advising you.
Personally I couldnt send a horse back to that unknown fate. There are some fairly simple things that can be addressed regarding feed & treating as an ulcer horse, MOT with dentist/farrier/therapist, giving the horse a bit of time, get an instructor for ground work and to train OP how to handle and work horse from the ground, get saddler/bit/bridle fit and then reassess having gotten to know horse better with aid of trainer/therapist.
Literally nothing has been tried at all and the good care has side effects like excess energy.
I dont know how long dope lasts but 3wks seems too long to me? He hacked out fine with OPand then first reared (iirc, could be wrong) with "pro" male. Who continued the ride and horse was then "easy".
It's so hard because with experience things would have been done differently and signs would have been spotted. I dont mean this cruelly but OP is an unreliable narrator because they cant know what they dont know.
I concur that it is a mess and far from ideal and I would rather pts a healthy horse than return it to dealers but literally not a single investigation has been done into this horse and even the basic management (feed) could be addressed and provide a radical change.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Or he was stamped up LOU and they hid it. And I think what is most likely, given their reaction, is that whatever trick their pulling, this horse is not the only one, and his double microchip could be the start of a dangerous paper trail that could get them into a lot of trouble
ester
Not slacking multitasking
But he’d be freeze marked for that?
be positive
Well-Known Member
I think I would want to follow the trail, if they have covered something up that may be the best way to get it sorted out properly, if they have done something the OP can go for a refund, whether they get it or not is another matter, if the horse is LOU or possibly even declared as PTS for an insurance claim there will be records and the OP could maybe find out the history before deciding which way to go, if it is a LOU/PTS claim a refund should be forthcoming and the horse could then be pts rather than returned.
Your own insurance co may help with the microchip tracking, if the horse has been the subject of a claim it should show up, this is a bit of a risk as it will void the insurance you have but I don't think you have any chance of getting investigations done under it anyway so there is little to lose and they may well offer advice through your legal cover as to where to go next, having an insurance co behind you could help the dealer see sense.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
In theory yes, but the system isn't completely air tight, and I have no idea what it is like in Ireland. It's usually a long process and and a horse can be moved on in the meantime, or the claim could be abandoned at the last minute but the passport and insurance records would already have too many indicators all over them for it to be passed off as a sound riding horse.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
It's a type of insurance claim made when a horse is deemed by a vet to be unsuitable by way of injury or ailment to continue its ridden career but the horse is not pts.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
Yes absolutely - I think a cob or a new forest pony would have been far more sensible. Oh well, lessons learnt. Now my mission is to make the RIGHT decisions moving forward, starting with Prince
be positive
Well-Known Member
And some people will not know what the freezemark means, I met a horse that was new to the owners which had a clear LOU mark, they had bought it for their daughter to event albeit probably very low level but they had no idea it was a LOU freezemark, I didn't know them so just suggested they looked it up rather than spoil their hopes by telling them it was probably broken, it was some time ago but I suspect there are still a few being passed on and not all LOU horses will get marked it would be easy enough to tell the insurance co it had been pts, pass on cheaply and let the dealers get a new passport, if vets are not checking properly for microchips before putting in a new one they are not doing their job properly either, to have a new passport for a 16 year old should make any decent vet suspicious.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
UPDATE:
Thank you so much everyone for your replies and very useful opinions on what could be at the root of this double microchip situation.
Having offered me a full refund yesterday the lady then came back to me to say her boss wasn’t happy that I hadn’t mentioned the 2nd microchip soon and that she wanted to see video evidence of the horse playing up. At this point I said there is no way in hell anyone is getting on Prince again (for his sake as well as the rider) I said I have 8 eye witnesses from the village who are prepared to give written statements about what they saw - and these are all life long horse owners who had never seen a horse behave this dangerously. She then said her boss wanted to speak to me and gave me her number.
I called straight away and the boss was very focused on telling me how much I had upset her partner, and I’ve made her out to be a liar and she is terrified of me (!) I stayed very calm and said - at no point have I made ANY kind of accusation. All I did was give a faithful narrative of what has happened. Funnily enough I hadn’t even asked for a refund - I had only asked to have the contact details of the previous owner so I could try and piece together more about Princes history. It was at this point (and when I mentioned the two microchips) that they suddenly offered a full refund.
So how things have been left now - they have said they are going to keep Prince as a field ornament so he isn’t PTS. I don’t believe this much as I would like to
Thank you so much everyone for your replies and very useful opinions on what could be at the root of this double microchip situation.
Having offered me a full refund yesterday the lady then came back to me to say her boss wasn’t happy that I hadn’t mentioned the 2nd microchip soon and that she wanted to see video evidence of the horse playing up. At this point I said there is no way in hell anyone is getting on Prince again (for his sake as well as the rider) I said I have 8 eye witnesses from the village who are prepared to give written statements about what they saw - and these are all life long horse owners who had never seen a horse behave this dangerously. She then said her boss wanted to speak to me and gave me her number.
I called straight away and the boss was very focused on telling me how much I had upset her partner, and I’ve made her out to be a liar and she is terrified of me (!) I stayed very calm and said - at no point have I made ANY kind of accusation. All I did was give a faithful narrative of what has happened. Funnily enough I hadn’t even asked for a refund - I had only asked to have the contact details of the previous owner so I could try and piece together more about Princes history. It was at this point (and when I mentioned the two microchips) that they suddenly offered a full refund.
So how things have been left now - they have said they are going to keep Prince as a field ornament so he isn’t PTS. I don’t believe this much as I would like to
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
So I have a plan! I will accept the refund (I have a solicitor in Ireland ready to go) I have a lot of family in Ireland and I’m going to ask my cousin to call the stable the minute I know Prince has arrived back and buy him back, for hopefully a very small sum. My cousin has lots of land and is happy to keep him as a companion horse. Dies this sound like a good plan?