New trainer in action 2.....

[Armas]

As I promised her is a video of our next session. I have started it in a separate thread so it does not get lost.
I have asked the trainer to work him in a slower more collected pace. However he does have a habit of trying to go at the speed of light.
I found the previous thread extremely informative and useful. The session started of with him being lunged then ridden.

[youtube]hY_hQMY0SVE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

 

[FlyingCircus]

Her trot confuses me massively. Sit, rise, sit so she's on the wrong diagonal, rise again...bounce abit Anyone want to enlighten me if i'm being stupid? XD

Also, what's she doing with her hands? She tends to have very steady (unforgiving?) hands for most of it, not really letting him stretch much...then at random points she throws them up and jabs him in the mouth...what is she doing at these points?

 

[CBS1]

I think he is still over bent a lot of the time and rather keep going with this I'd rather see her do a lot more stretching in walk only, then taking the contact. Also if this is his way of going then why not just drop him rather than keep a hold of his head?

Also her upper body is very twisty, especially in canter. I think she rises with her hands too which is maybe why she isn't letting him have his head.. The transitions from trot to walk seem to be very on the rein rather than they seat.

But I LOVE him

 

[FfionWinnie]

I was trying to look at your other videos of when David was riding him. I can't on the iPad when they are embedded however, what is your YouTube channel again please?

 

[kerrieberry2]

Her trot confuses me massively. Sit, rise, sit so she's on the wrong diagonal, rise again...bounce abit Anyone want to enlighten me if i'm being stupid? XD

Also, what's she doing with her hands? She tends to have very steady (unforgiving?) hands for most of it, not really letting him stretch much...then at random points she throws them up and jabs him in the mouth...what is she doing at these points?

agree with this, I don't like the way she rides?!!

 

[Goldenstar]

Have not time to view ATM but an looking forward to it later .
But just a thought please tell me Armas the rider can't read English can she ?please ....

 

[FlyingCircus]

Out of curiousity, what does Armas do if you were to trot him on a loose rein? Not on the buckle, just loose and allowing him to stretch, then gradually take up contact?

 

[DabDab]

Also, what's she doing with her hands? She tends to have very steady (unforgiving?) hands for most of it, not really letting him stretch much...then at random points she throws them up and jabs him in the mouth...what is she doing at these points?

She's trying to get his nose of his chest when she does that I think. He seems to get more and more overbent and when it gets too much she just tries to flick his nose back out with the reins.

 

[ChestnutTinker]

agree with this, I don't like the way she rides?!!

Thought it was just me who couldn't work out her riding

 

[FlyingCircus]

She's trying to get his nose of his chest when she does that I think. He seems to get more and more overbent and when it gets too much she just tries to flick his nose back out with the reins.

Is this a technique many use? Surely not holding their head in place initially then momentarily throwing the reins at them for a few seconds would be better? It's just that, if I was a horse, I know for sure jabbing me in the mouth would not make me want to reach forwards into the bit xD Especially as she seems to be pulling more up than she does offering him the reins.

 

[veronica22]

It hurts me to watch this. What would happen if the reins were actually relaxed? He looks like he'd fall on his nose. He looks like a clockwork horse - jerky and rushed, having him like this is an abomination to the fluid magnificent animal he should be. Even at the end the loose rein isn't. He doesn't stretch at all. Obviously he isn't easy but if he is evading he is doing it for a reason, maybe he should go back to the basics and learn to relax.

 

[_GG_]

Well, I may get a lot of criticism for this but hey ho.

Armas, I see huge improvements here.

It is just not good for a horse like this to be viewed through rose tinted glasses. You can't change a horses way of going overnight.

Why do I think it is much improved? Because at 5:20 and 10:50 as examples, the rider shows she is actually listening to the horse. He becomes more correct and he is instantly rewarded with a pressure release of just being allowed to walk.

The trot is much more relaxed and if anyone thinks her hands are too heavy, look at novhting but the reins...the contact is light. She is taking it up occasionally, actually when he dips too far under, she tries to engage the hind and then holds the rein to let him know she wants him to come up, not go forward. The throwing if the reins is not uncommon in classical training it changes the way the bit sits in the mouth and is another way to stop the horse becoming too overbent.

In neither videos is it the rider putting Armas BTV...he is putting himself there. In the first video the rider wasn't allowing him to come up even when he wanted to...but in this video she is...and she is rewarding it.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's never going to be, she is that the beginning of a long journey and if I were in James shoes...I'd be inclined to keep going...Armas looks happier in this video. That's not to say there aren't tense movements, but there are plenty of signs of progress.

Compare the lateral work to that in the dirst video and you'll see a distinct difference. Video one shows a very tense horse all over the place in the lateral work. This video shows a horse that moves from straight to lateral with no disruption of rhythm. Also, when the rider pushes him forward in the trot...he is really opening up without getting so heavy on the forehand.

Some real positives here.

Rome wasn't built in a day, don't expect a horse to change in a day either

Thanks for posting James x

 

[_GG_]

The rising, sitting, half seat, confusion you see in parts is far favourable to a rider committing to one or the other at the cost of the horse. She is simply responding to him and keeping her seat light. He is trying to pull her forwards and she isn't bracing against him, instead she is letting him go a bit but without giving up the contact which would not be good.

Yes, there is a very good argument that he should be taken back to basics, but I don't see a horse that is confused in this video...I see a horse that is challenging. Sometimes you can take a horse back to basics 10 times and they will still get to a point where they challenge. Could this be due to errors in training early on? Yes, of course they could, but back to basics isn't always the way forward. Sometimes issues need to be worked through.

 

[Armas]

Well, I may get a lot of criticism for this but hey ho.

Armas, I see huge improvements here.

It is just not good for a horse like this to be viewed through rose tinted glasses. You can't change a horses way of going overnight.

Why do I think it is much improved? Because at 5:20 and 10:50 as examples, the rider shows she is actually listening to the horse. He becomes more correct and he is instantly rewarded with a pressure release of just being allowed to walk.

The trot is much more relaxed and if anyone thinks her hands are too heavy, look at novhting but the reins...the contact is light. She is taking it up occasionally, actually when he dips too far under, she tries to engage the hind and then holds the rein to let him know she wants him to come up, not go forward. The throwing if the reins is not uncommon in classical training it changes the way the bit sits in the mouth and is another way to stop the horse becoming too overbent.

In neither videos is it the rider putting Armas BTV...he is putting himself there. In the first video the rider wasn't allowing him to come up even when he wanted to...but in this video she is...and she is rewarding it.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's never going to be, she is that the beginning of a long journey and if I were in James shoes...I'd be inclined to keep going...Armas looks happier in this video. That's not to say there aren't tense movements, but there are plenty of signs of progress.

Compare the lateral work to that in the dirst video and you'll see a distinct difference. Video one shows a very tense horse all over the place in the lateral work. This video shows a horse that moves from straight to lateral with no disruption of rhythm. Also, when the rider pushes him forward in the trot...he is really opening up without getting so heavy on the forehand.

Some real positives here.

Rome wasn't built in a day, don't expect a horse to change in a day either

Thanks for posting James x

Indeed Rome was not built in a day and I shall be persevering with her.I felt that the session was much more productive.

Still very over-bent and it cant be doing his back any good with her bouncing around like that.
Lovely horse .

Mad cat lady AKA Forest Fox. Please feel free to walk away from the thread if you are intending to be rude again. However if you have something constructive and educational to say then please post away.

 

[DabDab]

Is this a technique many use? Surely not holding their head in place initially then momentarily throwing the reins at them for a few seconds would be better? It's just that, if I was a horse, I know for sure jabbing me in the mouth would not make me want to reach forwards into the bit xD Especially as she seems to be pulling more up than she does offering him the reins.

I don't know about 'many', but it is a known technique, yes. When it's done well it is more about creating movement with the bit to stop the horse 'dwelling' in an increasingly overbent position.

 

[AmyMay]

I thought you wanted slower, and certainlt not collected??

 

[Armas]

Thats your previous user name.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thats your previous user name.

Armas you need to get out more oh god so do I .

 

[tessybear]

Cannot comment really as armas is a whole different story than the chunky cob I ride . I agree with seeing how it goes, thanks for updating us James it makes for an interesting watch and read ! X

 

[ChestnutTinker]

Who ????

I did say what a lovely horse and he is.
You are very lucky

Thats your previous user name.

Armas you need to get out more oh god so do I .

I think you are a bit confused about that
I still love you horse thought

What is going on??

 

[_GG_]

I thought you wanted slower, and certainlt not collected??

I felt the same Amymay...but I have to say I don't necessarily think it was bad for the horse in this video. I think the rider is just trying things out and I would much rather see that than see her sticking to a plan that isn't working.

What I did see which is encouraging is that when she did collect him a little bit, she waited for him to lift up out of the overbentedness (yay...new word) and as soon as he did this, allowed him a loose rein forward.

I'll watch again and pinpoint times if anyone wants. I just got a better overall feeling from this video...the horse looked happier.

As a point regarding the above....sometimes we don't know the grass is greener on the other side until we first realise it isn't very nice where we are. Perhaps the trainer is using the collection as a way to enhance the feeling of t he "other side".

It's a technique I have used with remarkable results at times.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Lovely horse - video is fine from 23 minutes onwards when the rider goes back to walk and lets the horse relax.

 

[Cheiro1]

Well, I may get a lot of criticism for this but hey ho.

Armas, I see huge improvements here.

It is just not good for a horse like this to be viewed through rose tinted glasses. You can't change a horses way of going overnight.

Why do I think it is much improved? Because at 5:20 and 10:50 as examples, the rider shows she is actually listening to the horse. He becomes more correct and he is instantly rewarded with a pressure release of just being allowed to walk.

The trot is much more relaxed and if anyone thinks her hands are too heavy, look at novhting but the reins...the contact is light. She is taking it up occasionally, actually when he dips too far under, she tries to engage the hind and then holds the rein to let him know she wants him to come up, not go forward. The throwing if the reins is not uncommon in classical training it changes the way the bit sits in the mouth and is another way to stop the horse becoming too overbent.

In neither videos is it the rider putting Armas BTV...he is putting himself there. In the first video the rider wasn't allowing him to come up even when he wanted to...but in this video she is...and she is rewarding it.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's never going to be, she is that the beginning of a long journey and if I were in James shoes...I'd be inclined to keep going...Armas looks happier in this video. That's not to say there aren't tense movements, but there are plenty of signs of progress.

Compare the lateral work to that in the dirst video and you'll see a distinct difference. Video one shows a very tense horse all over the place in the lateral work. This video shows a horse that moves from straight to lateral with no disruption of rhythm. Also, when the rider pushes him forward in the trot...he is really opening up without getting so heavy on the forehand.

Some real positives here.

Rome wasn't built in a day, don't expect a horse to change in a day either

Thanks for posting James x

This, very much so!

I didn't comment on the previous thread but was thinking I was nuts seeing massive improvements. Glad I am not the only one!

 

[fankino04]

I didn't comment on the previous thread because everything I would have said had already been said but it does worry me watching this that she doesn't appear to use her seat or legs as much as I would like to see from a "professional trainer" also concerned that she needed you to tell her to slow him down and hadnt figured that out for herself. Really lovely horse though.

 

[ELFSBELLS]

I have to say when I first started to watch the vid, I winced, he does' nt look an easy horse at all, but I could'nt quite make out her style of riding and what she was trying to achieve, I would have liked her to use her leg and seat a bit more, as the video went on I saw more improvement, a lovely horse, but would like to see him stretch a lot more, good luck x

 

[little_critter]

Def looked better to me. I agree I don't believe she is holding his head in, he puts it there and she is saying 'you can't escape the contact'. When he stretches forward her hands follow.
I'm absolutely no expert though.

 

[meesha]

Beautiful horse and a pleasure to watch in the last few minutes when he relaxes.. It reminded me of lovely western horses that work so well without our traditional contact.

Really hope it works out for you whatever route you take

 

[blitznbobs]

He looks like he's getting worse not better...

 

[Bexx]

An improvement on last time i thought. The horse looked a lot less panicked. If you take your attention off her hands and just watch the reins, you can see the occasional give, which to me is very much what this horse needs. I do believe she needs to over exaggerate the give of the inside hand when she feels him relax and come up to the vertical point. I agree with Amymay in respect to the fact she seems to have asked for collection rather than just slower, so this maybe needs to be addressed again.

For me, it would be interesting to see Armas ridden on a lose rein, not being asked to work round, just moving forward in a steady rhythm, with straightness and correct bend where appropriate, or possible lunged in just a headcollar or similar, with no training aids or such like.

I will look forward to watching Armas' progress with new trainer. Good Luck

 

[Mongoose11]

Yes, an improvement, but that is only because the first video was truly dreadful

I still wouldn't be paying her. Not a penny. Is there really nobody else suitable?