New trainer in action 2.....
- Thread starter Armas
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
+1...isn't she just
I think so to , to read some ofthe comments I could have thought I was watching the wrong clip .
Wheels
Well-Known Member
Good luck with your session today, I hope you keep seeing bits of improvement as she gets to grips with him.
I think calling him 'difficult' is a bit of an exaggeration though... Maybe a bit highly strung with a few tricks up his sleeve but difficult to me brings images of giant bucks, rears etc, more extreme behaviour
I think calling him 'difficult' is a bit of an exaggeration though... Maybe a bit highly strung with a few tricks up his sleeve but difficult to me brings images of giant bucks, rears etc, more extreme behaviour
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I thought about this question last night but then held off, but these sorts of deeper philosophical question have been bugging me in general, so I'll ask it (and take the flames).
If the horse disagrees with people who have a strong seat and leg but is obviously quite happy being ridden by James and the wee lassie, than why put him through that? What benefit will there be for Armas? Why is "serious work" necessary? He is a happy, functional horse for his owner and in that video with the girl on him, he might not have been in a super dressage outline, but he was moving softly, freely, relaxed, comfortable.
If the horse disagrees with people who have a strong seat and leg but is obviously quite happy being ridden by James and the wee lassie, than why put him through that? What benefit will there be for Armas? Why is "serious work" necessary? He is a happy, functional horse for his owner and in that video with the girl on him, he might not have been in a super dressage outline, but he was moving softly, freely, relaxed, comfortable.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I had the same question pop in to my head this morning.
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
What is the endgame for Aramas? Is he to compete or just be schooled to a certain level?
I will say that it may have been better to wait a few weeks before posting vids as it is a new partnership. I still stand by the comments I made in the first thread. But it may be different in a few weeks. Who knows. I do like Cortez's words of wisdom. She knows these horses inside and out. She would know what type of rider suits these horses. She is not my cup of tea and my more blood type horses would not go for her style, but who knows. Personally I don't ride horses I constantly have to use a strong seat and leg. It's there when needed but much prefer riding light.
Best of luck
Terri
I will say that it may have been better to wait a few weeks before posting vids as it is a new partnership. I still stand by the comments I made in the first thread. But it may be different in a few weeks. Who knows. I do like Cortez's words of wisdom. She knows these horses inside and out. She would know what type of rider suits these horses. She is not my cup of tea and my more blood type horses would not go for her style, but who knows. Personally I don't ride horses I constantly have to use a strong seat and leg. It's there when needed but much prefer riding light.
Best of luck
Terri
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
The more horses I work with, the more I come to realize we should, to an extent, listen to and follow the horse and that might require some adjustment of our own ambitions and goals.
I think it's so easy to look at a horse and say, "It's a PRE or a warmblood, or I bought it for this job, and it should be able to do this," and then push the horse on through any objections it might have.
The Andalusians I have seen doing upper levels are a lot shorter in the back and closer coupled than Armas. Armas is a little bit like my horse..longer and loose coupled. This means that really sitting and bringing the hindquarters underneath isn't as natural or easy a thing for them. I had a lot of arguments with my horse when we were younger because I was doing competitive dressage and was riding an idea, a theory, not the horse in front of me. When I changed my tune and started thinking about improving the balance and way of going of THAT horse, things got better. Not taking her to any preconceived notions of dressage, but taking her to a place where the balance was right and comfortable for her. Once I started riding in a way where I said to the horse, "you tell me where you think I should be," the disagreements stopped. Then I understood that the horse already knew lightness and engagement. All horses do. The whole time, it had been me who was stopping her from getting there. Once allowed to go in a way that wasn't uncomfortable, she immediately gave me the lightness and the feel that we had been arguing about for years.
The greenies I am training obviously require more proactive input, as they are learning about the aids and how to carry a rider full stop, but in those moments where they get it, I just sit, light and quiet, and let them find the comfortable space, that balance, where moving along with the rider feels good.
Sorry, I'm rambling, but have been thinking of these issues, the boundaries between making horses do things and allowing them to do things and where those should be and what demands we should be making of our horses.
I think it's so easy to look at a horse and say, "It's a PRE or a warmblood, or I bought it for this job, and it should be able to do this," and then push the horse on through any objections it might have.
The Andalusians I have seen doing upper levels are a lot shorter in the back and closer coupled than Armas. Armas is a little bit like my horse..longer and loose coupled. This means that really sitting and bringing the hindquarters underneath isn't as natural or easy a thing for them. I had a lot of arguments with my horse when we were younger because I was doing competitive dressage and was riding an idea, a theory, not the horse in front of me. When I changed my tune and started thinking about improving the balance and way of going of THAT horse, things got better. Not taking her to any preconceived notions of dressage, but taking her to a place where the balance was right and comfortable for her. Once I started riding in a way where I said to the horse, "you tell me where you think I should be," the disagreements stopped. Then I understood that the horse already knew lightness and engagement. All horses do. The whole time, it had been me who was stopping her from getting there. Once allowed to go in a way that wasn't uncomfortable, she immediately gave me the lightness and the feel that we had been arguing about for years.
The greenies I am training obviously require more proactive input, as they are learning about the aids and how to carry a rider full stop, but in those moments where they get it, I just sit, light and quiet, and let them find the comfortable space, that balance, where moving along with the rider feels good.
Sorry, I'm rambling, but have been thinking of these issues, the boundaries between making horses do things and allowing them to do things and where those should be and what demands we should be making of our horses.
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Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Good luck with your session today, I hope you keep seeing bits of improvement as she gets to grips with him.
I think calling him 'difficult' is a bit of an exaggeration though... Maybe a bit highly strung with a few tricks up his sleeve but difficult to me brings images of giant bucks, rears etc, more extreme behaviour
difficult to ride correctly in a true connection. he looks genuine and sweet and lovely, but tricky to get working properly.
mines the opposite, hard to stay on top of but if you do he's dead easy to actually get working nicely!
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
CI, great post. How I felt with my mare and the need to do things things differently. Despite what others said.
Terri
Terri
Armas
Well-Known Member
To answer what is my end game... There in lies the rub. I enjoy all aspects of riding hacking out jumping and dressage to an extent.
However I am looking to compete in working equitation at a basic and fun level.
In order to do that I need Armas to listen and to carry out certain movements when asked.
This is Pedro Torres in action
[youtube]XZ8d9ByD5L4[/youtube]
However I am looking to compete in working equitation at a basic and fun level.
In order to do that I need Armas to listen and to carry out certain movements when asked.
This is Pedro Torres in action
[youtube]XZ8d9ByD5L4[/youtube]
AmyMay
Situation normal
Surely then the trainer you are currently using is totally the wrong one???
ester
Not slacking multitasking
^^^ this
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
Wow . . . one of the most insightful things I have ever read on this forum (or anyone else) . . . real lightbulb moment - thank you. To some degree we've done this with Kal on the flat without realizing it . . . and with many thanks to our lovely trainer for that . . . but we certainly don't extend this to the other phases (Kal events) and we should - within the parameters of staying safe, etc. I am going to print this comment and show it to Z (Kal's eventing jockey) and C (our trainer).
P
Armas
Well-Known Member
Well I have to make the best of what I can find. Many of the basic moves are all dressage movements.
At the moment the task at hand is getting him to move forward with correct engagement.
Passage Piaffe Tera a tera Side pass etc are all the movements we will be going for.
At the moment the task at hand is getting him to move forward with correct engagement.
Passage Piaffe Tera a tera Side pass etc are all the movements we will be going for.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
Fab video - that's one athletic little horse - but if you want to do things like that with Armas, then why are you working with your current/new trainer? Yes, I see the necessity for obedience/submission and suppleness - and good flatwork is a key building block for that - but modern dressage (which is what your trainer practices if she is a disciple of Adelinde C) isn't the right way to achieve what you want . . . I'm confused
P
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
I actually think that what Armas needs is to find the "fun" in flatwork. Once he is happy and relaxed and working "with" the rider, THEN you can ask for forward and engaged. At the moment, it all seems like so much of a fight . . . and that can't be fun for him.
We are having a similar "come to Jesus" wrt to Kal and XC . . . he doesn't find it "fun" and we're having to rethink our approach and figure out how to inject the fun and excitement into XC (while Z stays safe). It may be that we never manage it - in which case, however much we want him to be an eventer, we will change our approach and he will hunt, SJ and do some dressage instead (all of which he enjoys).
P
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
If Armas objects to being ridden in a certain way aand a beautiful outcome can be achieved by using a different method then why not change the method rather than the horse? If he objects to a strong leg and a strong seat then why are you using them? Madness. He doesn't need a strong leg and a strong seat to achieve good work - we have seen that. Do you have a strong leg and seat Armas or are you going to ride him in a new way to the way in which he is being trained?
My mare ant go forward in a Pelham so she isn't ridden in a pelham, she doesn't react well to spurs (and doesn't need them) so she isn't ridden in spurs. I haven't got the time or patience to put this all across as beautifully as some but I don't understand the equation here...
My mare ant go forward in a Pelham so she isn't ridden in a pelham, she doesn't react well to spurs (and doesn't need them) so she isn't ridden in spurs. I haven't got the time or patience to put this all across as beautifully as some but I don't understand the equation here...
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goldenmint
Well-Known Member
I would scrap the 'Professionals' and get the young girl some decent lessons on him. He looks much happier all round when ridden by her rather than the professional. It might be a longer road but it looks like it would be more harmonious.
goldenmint
Well-Known Member
Nicnac
Well-Known Member
Didn't comment on last thread as can't stand the usual bickering when you post Armas, however there were some really fabulous insightful comments on it too as there have been on this thread.
Definitely agree that this second vid is much better than the first and I think it's brave of you to post their first session together & will be interesting to see whether Armas (where on earth does Aramas come from?!) starts to respect her as he did David over time.
I can understand why you want him trained by a dressage rider even though that's not your end goal. Surely those questioning it understand what dressage is? Training to develop flexibility, balance and obedience and therefore the foundation for any discipline.
Yes he looks lovely when ridden bareback but not exactly hard work for him.
Just a question from another thread (not yours) and from my experience over the water - is she using your saddle on him or one of hers?
Definitely agree that this second vid is much better than the first and I think it's brave of you to post their first session together & will be interesting to see whether Armas (where on earth does Aramas come from?!) starts to respect her as he did David over time.
I can understand why you want him trained by a dressage rider even though that's not your end goal. Surely those questioning it understand what dressage is? Training to develop flexibility, balance and obedience and therefore the foundation for any discipline.
Yes he looks lovely when ridden bareback but not exactly hard work for him.
Just a question from another thread (not yours) and from my experience over the water - is she using your saddle on him or one of hers?
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Good question - given the other thread it would definitely be interesting to hear what this rider does.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
I didn't question James' desire to establish Armas' flatwork (a sensible approach) . . . merely his choice of trainer given his end goal. Not all dressage trainers are created equal. I am interested to hear from James himself whether he has discussed his end goal with this new trainer and what her suggested plan is to get them there. To me, modern dressage and classical Spanish are two different approaches.
P
Armas
Well-Known Member
My boys proper name is Banquero his full name is Armas Banquero. He comes from a well know military stud in Spain called Plaza de Armas.
All of the horses from that stud have the prefix Armas ....
I just use Armas and its stuck.
Exactly this training to develop flexibility, balance and obedience and therefore the foundation for any discipline.
The saddle is one of hers she has many. Her bf is a saddler so made sure the saddle was a good fit.
I don't normally start the bickering just get dragged in to it.However I am just not going to bite any more !
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Having just started with a classical trainer I was more struck by the similarities than the difference ( I think more difference may come later )
We did a lot in walk and trotting in small circles verses my " modern " trainer but I came away from my first session happy I can combine the two without disaster .
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
. . . and why is offering a different viewpoint than "oh he's lovely, everything looks spectacular, you always do the right thing" bickering?
P
P
Armas
Well-Known Member
I have established my goals with the trainer. I also want to be able to take part in entry level dressage.
The main goal is to establish a correct movement and engagement and that is what I have told her I want.
Every thing else is a bonus at this point !
weebarney
Well-Known Member
Well I think in the jumping video he looked lovely, honest forward and happy, I wouldn't want to loose that .
*hic*
village idiot :D
. . . and why is offering a different viewpoint than "oh he's lovely, everything looks spectacular, you always do the right thing" bickering?
P
I suspect it's not that that Armas' owner is calling bickering! He seems to take much of the sensible different viewpoints on board, it's the little infights going on that don't have much to add to the thread that are "bickering".
Armas
Well-Known Member
. . . and why is offering a different viewpoint than "oh he's lovely, everything looks spectacular, you always do the right thing" bickering?
P
I certainly don't think having a different view point as bickering. Both of the recent threads have not gone that way and have been interesting.
However when I have posted in the past there were certain disruptive posters who would always try to get my back up or take the thread of track.