New trainer in action 7

Armas

Armas

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Last session this week went well. He is starting to take up contact a lot more and his haunch is starting to engage. Still slightly weaker on the right side but is improving.
His head is not tucked as much BTV :D But still requires time and patience and we will get him out of that bad habit.

Prior to ever session he is lunged with side reins and is encouraged to stretch.

This video is of the full session.

[youtube]/91FMPqzvBb4[/youtube]
 
Forest Fox said:
Bless him he really tries hard
Does he ever get a day off or get to do 'fun' stuff ?
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This week he trained 5 days for a maximum 45 min and was hacked out for 2 hrs. Whilst not working he is turned out.
Next week he will work 4 days and 2 days hacking.
He has plenty of time for fun.
 
Hi,
I have lurked on here...watched you schooling your boy beautifully....gone through hell with you, the boy and the the choke thing....watched all of the vids.....and now I am going to ask something....well two somethings actually..

1. Why does the person riding your horse ALWAYS have him behind the vertical into a holding hand?

2. Do you believe this person is doing your horse good?

It seems to me he is just going backwards in his training.....and you need to get back on to redress the balance.

I hope I havn't offended you....it is not my intention....but in this vid in my opinion...he is gradually losing more and more muscle....not gaining it.....and that surely has to be down to incorrect schooling?

I wish you all the best with your wonderful boy......but feel I cannot watch anymore.

Best wishes
Bryndu
 
Bryndu said:
Hi,
I have lurked on here...watched you schooling your boy beautifully....gone through hell with you, the boy and the the choke thing....watched all of the vids.....and now I am going to ask something....well two somethings actually..

1. Why does the person riding your horse ALWAYS have him behind the vertical into a holding hand?

2. Do you believe this person is doing your horse good?

It seems to me he is just going backwards in his training.....and you need to get back on to redress the balance.

I hope I havn't offended you....it is not my intention....but in this vid in my opinion...he is gradually losing more and more muscle....not gaining it.....and that surely has to be down to incorrect schooling?

I wish you all the best with your wonderful boy......but feel I cannot watch anymore.

Best wishes
Bryndu
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Ill try to answer your question. He is BTV by choice not by force its an old trick to avoid being on the bit. However we are slowly trying to break him out of this habit.
I do believe in the trainer I did not pick her lightly. I interviewed three other trainers that were recommended. I also videoed those sessions then asked for some knowledgeable friends to watch them and comment who they thought would be best for my boy.
So far what I have seen from the trainer I am happy with.
I have upped his feed he gets two large scoops of hard feed three times a day plus add lib hay.
I am sorry that you feel you cannot watch.
 
He is such a dreamy looking horse, like a horse from a childhood fairytail! However I can see he doesn't look an easy ride! I have one who locks onto his chest too and it's so difficult to fix, but mine is only 13.3hh and a new forest so with less spice to him, I can only imagine how hard it is to sort out! I think people do t realise how difficult it is to ride a horse who can use this to their advantage- I've had I structural that say push him forwards/ drop the contact etc but it takes real tactics! I can't comment on your boy as I don't have experience to voice any advice/useful points but I watch the vids with interest.
 
Armas said:
Ill try to answer your question. He is BTV by choice not by force its an old trick to avoid being on the bit. However we are slowly trying to break him out of this habit.
I do believe in the trainer I did not pick her lightly. I interviewed three other trainers that were recommended. I also videoed those sessions then asked for some knowledgeable friends to watch them and comment who they thought would be best for my boy.
So far what I have seen from the trainer I am happy with.
I have upped his feed he gets two large scoops of hard feed three times a day plus add lib hay.
I am sorry that you feel you cannot watch.
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Thanks for your reply...I know you didn't have too....
I have to say though...in the vids from way back...YOU ride him so much better....trust in yourself.....you were going in the right direction....

I wish you and the boy every success in the world....

Best wishes
Bryndu
 
i haven't ever commented on any of your posts before despite me watching your progress and in all honesty i dont blame you if this goes straight over your head as he is your horse etc but just hear me out :o

Firstly lovely horse, very much like Rio even in his behavior if he finds something difficult or doesnt understand so i totally understand in that respect. Also Rio also has a habit of over bending so i really do understand what its like to ride and also how difficult it is to get them out of it!

But - and as i said ignore me if you wish but i dont feel she is the right rider for him. she rides lovely and i can see it! i totally do but the things she is doing are not helping him. Towards the end of the video you see he is reaching down and even rounding up correctly but as soon as he reaches down she pulls his head up which causes him to shorten his neck and attach his chin to his chest and run through the contact and loose his back end. he wants to drop his head into the contact but she pulls him up and i almost feel that you will find that you will stay at the same point in his training.

but i dont know either the trainer or Armas so please do take with a pinch of salt :)


if you wish for me to expand on what i have said PM me

other then that i wish you all the best with him

SM
 
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I'm no expert so I could be completely misreading it, but I saw this vid on Facebook earlier and felt he looks very uncomfortable. To me he seems very overbent. Perhaps there's a good reason for this which I'm missing?

I didn't enjoy watching the film, he looked unhappy to me.

If I'm quite wrong, I'm sure someone will put me right. :)
 
StormyMoments said:
i haven't ever commented on any of your posts before despite me watching your progress and in all honesty i dont blame you if this goes straight over your head as he is your horse etc but just hear me out :o

Firstly lovely horse, very much like Rio even in his behavior if he finds something difficult or doesnt understand so i totally understand in that respect. Also Rio also has a habit of over bending so i really do understand what its like to ride and also how difficult it is to get them out of it!

But - and as i said ignore me if you wish but i dont feel she is the right rider for him. she rides lovely and i can see it! i totally do but the things she is doing are not helping him. Towards the end of the video you see he is reaching down and even rounding up correctly but as soon as he reaches down she pulls his head up which causes him to shorten his neck and attach his chin to his chest and run through the contact and loose his back end. he wants to drop his head into the contact but she pulls him up and i almost feel that you will find that you will stay at the same point in his training.

but i dont know either the trainer or Armas so please do take with a pinch of salt :)


if you wish for me to expand on what i have said PM me

other then that i wish you all the best with him

SM
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I totally agree with this, the horse is in rollkur and kept there, he tries on many occassions to stretch and take the contact forward and is physically blocked by the rider, she has a good seat and doesnt use it to control him whilst allowing the contact forward, i found it hard to watch. He only carries himself like this because he has learnt to evade too strong a contact and will need tactful riding to resolve.
 
Farma said:
I totally agree with this, the horse is in rollkur and kept there, he tries on many occassions to stretch and take the contact forward and is physically blocked by the rider, she has a good seat and doesnt use it to control him whilst allowing the contact forward, i found it hard to watch. He only carries himself like this because he has learnt to evade too strong a contact and will need tactful riding to resolve.
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Actually I think you will find that Armas has not been ridden in a strong contact, he's just a very sensitive and clever horse who has learned to tuck himself behind the rider's hand. It's very difficult to ride horses which do this, and it's an evasion which is particularly prevalent in Spanish horses when they are ridden by, shall we say, less experienced riders.
 
Cortez said:
Actually I think you will find that Armas has not been ridden in a strong contact, he's just a very sensitive and clever horse who has learned to tuck himself behind the rider's hand. It's very difficult to ride horses which do this, and it's an evasion which is particularly prevalent in Spanish horses when they are ridden by, shall we say, less experienced riders.
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I understand as i have ridden horses like this and its a shame as its tricky to resolve, i think you can see clearly in the video that he is trying to take the contact forward on several occassions and is blocked from doing so, how can he learn to take it forward and be less btv when she blocks him when he tries?
 
Farma said:
I understand as i have ridden horses like this and its a shame as its tricky to resolve, i think you can see clearly in the video that he is trying to take the contact forward on several occassions and is blocked from doing so, how can he learn to take it forward and be less btv when she blocks him when he tries?
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Erm, I don't know? I agree with you all the way on that.
 
Farma said:
I understand as i have ridden horses like this and its a shame as its tricky to resolve, i think you can see clearly in the video that he is trying to take the contact forward on several occassions and is blocked from doing so, how can he learn to take it forward and be less btv when she blocks him when he tries?
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Watching that particular aspect of the way she rides him reminds me of the traditional army types I knew when I was a kid, who were very much of the opinion that if the rider doesn't ask for it then the horse shouldn't do it. As opposed to being of the opinion that if the horse offers something desirable then the rider might as well work with it, even if they didn't ask for it. She does let the horse's head out and down, but only when she asks for it, as far as I can see.
 
While it is an improvement on previous sessions with her I still feel the horse is not 100% right behind. I know he was treated for an SI problem before....may be worth investigations again
 
Farma said:
I understand as i have ridden horses like this and its a shame as its tricky to resolve, i think you can see clearly in the video that he is trying to take the contact forward on several occassions and is blocked from doing so, how can he learn to take it forward and be less btv when she blocks him when he tries?
Click to expand...

Cortez said:
Erm, I don't know? I agree with you all the way on that.
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Totally understand why you would say this. If you look at my posts in the first video with this new trainer it is one of the things I was really unimpressed with.

However, that was a video in which the rider was going way too forward and rushed and blocking any effort the horse made to stretch out in any form.

In the last few videos, I have only seen the rider pull him up when he is taking the contact quite far down. I will say, I have not sat and watched the entire video on this update, but what I have seen is the rider pulling him up when he gets quite low and here is why I won't criticise her for that...

We all have our methods and ideas in training horses and the best way to do things. I will say repeatedly that I am no expert and so am always open to learning new things. Most if these things I learn from the horses themselves and the very biggest of those lessons has been that what works for one may not work for another.

On that point and considering we are not riding the horse in these videos, I would not be so foolish to assume that I know that she is doing something wrong. Another thing I often say is that assumption is a talent of the foolish...which applies because we are just looking at a video and not getting the feedback from the horse that this rider is getting.

I ride a few horses that will do what this horse is doing. Some can go really long and low in the head and neck carriage and be fine, not leaning against the contact or going heavy on the forehand...both of which wiuld be detrimental to what the rider is trying to acheive.
Some of the horses though will get this low and end up heavy on the forehand, leaning on the rein and this way of going will do nothing positive for the horse, so a hug with the legs and pulling up out of it is a good thing, not a bad one, imo.

There are still posters saying that the horse is being ridden overbent, to that end, I would suggest James that each time you post an update video, you also include links to previous update threads in order that people can get an understanding of the history and actually, how far this partnership has come in the past week. The horse is not being ridden in rollkur and he is not being held in an overbent position. The horse has learned this evasion and it is a very well established carriage for him, so will take probably a couple of years to reverse.

Try not to make assumptions based on initial views and have a really good look at what the rider is doing. If you do, you will see that it is the horse giving the shape and the rider trying to encourage him out of it. I can't remember which update video it was in, but there are a fair few occasions in that video and videos since then that clearly show moments where the horse is engaged, carrying his head above the vertical, but round and the rein contact is pretty much loose, also showing many moments of reward from the rider.

There have also been posts about the rider occasionally throwing her hands or moving the bit in the horses mouth...both methods of bringing the horse out of a fixed head carriage and encouraging relaxation in the jaw and at the poll...not something a forceful rider will really ever do.

You may agree or disagree, but whatever...I would urge everyone that rides to be open minded and perhaps look for reasons why a person may be doing something, rather than just condemning them off the bat.

I am no expert...and I am very pleased about that because I will never think I know it all, so am very open to listening to other points of view.


The only thing I would like to see change is the lunging. I owuld honestly like to see the side reins taken away. They simply do not have the capacity to give like a riders hand and so it can be like putting him a step back in terms of trusting contact enough to seek it.

Also, lunging with a free head and neck carriage could help to undo the tightness of the muscles built from his overbending.

Other than that, I can see improvement in each video and I for one am getting a great deal of enjoyment from these videos.

Oooh, one last point, someone very nicely mentioned that James got better work out of this horse in old videos so why doesn't he just carry on. I am sure he can speak for himself perfectly well, but I think he has a trainer as he is a big enough person to admit that he may not be experienced enough to actually help the horse work through the issues in order to get to the point of being able to do low level equitation.

Over and out :D
 
amage said:
While it is an improvement on previous sessions with her I still feel the horse is not 100% right behind. I know he was treated for an SI problem before....may be worth investigations again
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I agree...but it probably won't improve without work to rebuild muscle and balance him out again. I believe he gets regular checks as well, so only time will tell but hopefully the work will help him.
 
For those making suppositions about why things are being done, very simply we are not riding the horse and so cannot have any idea how he feels to the rider at any one time or another. BUT, a lot of the theory being expounded at length on this thread is not as applicable to the type of horse as it would be to a warmblood. The majority of Spanish horses DO NOT move or balance themselves like modern, back-moving sports horses. They are perfectly capable of being balanced and not at all on the forehand whilst very behind the vertical, and sometimes getting them to go longer and low in the neck can unbalance them and cause rhythm disturbances, and get them quite flustered and speedy. What the trainer was doing early on (push forwards at all costs) is standard procedure for most modern horses; it's not something that I have ever seen really work with PRE's it just pushes them onto the front when they are built to go over the hocks. I have Spanish horses (and other Baroque breeds); if I ever again wanted to do "proper" dressage, such as this lady does, I would most certainly not be annoying my Spanish boys with it, I'd just go and get a warmblood. Horses for courses.
 
Cortez said:
For those making suppositions about why things are being done, very simply we are not riding the horse and so cannot have any idea how he feels to the rider at any one time or another. BUT, a lot of the theory being expounded at length on this thread is not as applicable to the type of horse as it would be to a warmblood. The majority of Spanish horses DO NOT move or balance themselves like modern, back-moving sports horses. They are perfectly capable of being balanced and not at all on the forehand whilst very behind the vertical, and sometimes getting them to go longer and low in the neck can unbalance them and cause rhythm disturbances, and get them quite flustered and speedy. What the trainer was doing early on (push forwards at all costs) is standard procedure for most modern horses; it's not something that I have ever seen really work with PRE's it just pushes them onto the front when they are built to go over the hocks. I have Spanish horses (and other Baroque breeds); if I ever again wanted to do "proper" dressage, such as this lady does, I would most certainly not be annoying my Spanish boys with it, I'd just go and get a warmblood. Horses for courses.
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Indeed. What works for one doesn't always work for another.
 
I don't know enough to make a judgement but I am really enjoying these videos and learning a lot from the constructive posts - particularly GG and Cortez - really very interesting to read, thank you.
 
I was going to quietly observe and not post, but all I could think was, "Eh?"

Some of you think this is better? I don't. Armas' gait looks very choppy, not engaged at all. He's breaking at the third vertebrae, not the poll, for the entire ride. He looks really tight through the topline, more resistant and fussier in the bridle than on previous rides, and more uneven behind.
 
Really good reply Cortez, I just dont personally think Armas has it in him to be be the dressage horse you want him to be OP. He looked so happy in the jumping & hacking videos.... why not just stick to that? The horse does not look happy at all even in the latest update.

Cortez said:
For those making suppositions about why things are being done, very simply we are not riding the horse and so cannot have any idea how he feels to the rider at any one time or another. BUT, a lot of the theory being expounded at length on this thread is not as applicable to the type of horse as it would be to a warmblood. The majority of Spanish horses DO NOT move or balance themselves like modern, back-moving sports horses. They are perfectly capable of being balanced and not at all on the forehand whilst very behind the vertical, and sometimes getting them to go longer and low in the neck can unbalance them and cause rhythm disturbances, and get them quite flustered and speedy. What the trainer was doing early on (push forwards at all costs) is standard procedure for most modern horses; it's not something that I have ever seen really work with PRE's it just pushes them onto the front when they are built to go over the hocks. I have Spanish horses (and other Baroque breeds); if I ever again wanted to do "proper" dressage, such as this lady does, I would most certainly not be annoying my Spanish boys with it, I'd just go and get a warmblood. Horses for courses.
Click to expand...
 
Wow if i was poster id be feeling quite down with the comments as she is clearly trying hard with an ovbious tricky horse, some people are quick to judge i say 'you dont know me nor my pony until you ride him' which usually results in them pooeing themselves while he tanks around the menarge lol!
 
_GG_ said:
We all have our methods and ideas in training horses and the best way to do things. I will say repeatedly that I am no expert and so am always open to learning new things. Most if these things I learn from the horses themselves and the very biggest of those lessons has been that what works for one may not work for another.

On that point and considering we are not riding the horse in these videos, I would not be so foolish to assume that I know that she is doing something wrong. Another thing I often say is that assumption is a talent of the foolish...which applies because we are just looking at a video and not getting the feedback from the horse that this rider is getting.
...

Other than that, I can see improvement in each video and I for one am getting a great deal of enjoyment from these videos.
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GG, I'm so glad you posted all of that and I agree with it all :)

I find myself defending the rider time and again but would also like to point out that it is not 'unconditional':rolleyes: and is partly in response to (I feel) an unjustified tirade of hate which she can't defend herself from, nor explain what she's doing. We have to keep an open mind and assume she's not useless even though she hasn't turned the horse round in a single session, otherwise J wouldn't have asked her to help. He wants the best for his horse and wouldn't allow it to continue if the horse was distressed.

Just I think it is wise to be pragmatic and look at the videos in context. The starting point - the horse she took on, and the progress thus far.
 
milliepops said:
I find myself defending the rider time and again but would also like to point out that it is not 'unconditional':rolleyes: and is partly in response to (I feel) an unjustified tirade of hate which she can't defend herself from, nor explain what she's doing. We have to keep an open mind and assume she's not useless even though she hasn't turned the horse round in a single session, otherwise J wouldn't have asked her to help. He wants the best for his horse and wouldn't allow it to continue if the horse was distressed.

Just I think it is wise to be pragmatic and look at the videos in context. The starting point - the horse she took on, and the progress thus far.
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Oh....wise words indeed :)
 
My one thought is that with the previous SI issue it might be better to back off the intensity of work so that his muscles have good time to recover in between sessions. I think it's quite a bug ask to ask them to work differently without a rest day or two inbetween
 
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