New trainer in action 7

Can someone explain at all why they think the male trainer just posted is 'better' than the woman? As in the way they train?

To me the male riders hands seem very unsteady, quite low and seem heavy. He doesn't seem to be as quiet as the lady rider in the saddle either?

Her hands are steady but can seem heavy to me as well, she's got a quiet seat though?

Tbh I have no Idea what to look at but Would love someone to explain the differences between to two :)
 
Don't you think the horse just looks so much better, Risky?

I admit I thought exactly the same about BB when we first saw him and I said so. But I listened to folk like Cortez who know these horses and we all saw how he made the horse go so beautifully. Its a foreign horse, that's a foreign rider used to riding those horses, they understand each other.

I totally agree QB that us the word, captivating. Despite the video being dark and long, I couldn't stop watching it and I also like QB had to post and go back to it to watch more.
 
risky business said:
Can someone explain at all why they think the male trainer just posted is 'better' than the woman? As in the way they train?

To me the male riders hands seem very unsteady, quite low and seem heavy. He doesn't seem to be as quiet as the lady rider in the saddle either?
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I see the same as you do :)

FW, isn't it funny that you see boring and I see patience :D
 
its curious isn't it. I suppose I see him try to change something if its not going well, whereas she plugs away at it a bit (ie your patience I suppose :) )
 
milliepops said:
I see the same as you do :)

FW, isn't it funny that you see boring and I see patience :D
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Yes but this thread has to be one of my favourites yet. I've been reading but had nothing to add, because I don't know enough to comment, its been so interesting reading everyone's thoughts as they are so contradictory.

And stormy if you are still reading this lets have a Rio video update eh!
 
I don't think he looks a whole lot better tbh :o

He's still tense, being fussy with his head and trying it on? He's over bent looking with both trainers to me?

He raises his head above the vertical more with the male I guess but he's still 'stuffy' looking when he does so.

He seems to reach down into contact with both and I find the male trainer more rewarding when armas does so.

I guess the male seems better but I don't like his seat :o
 
Would love to know what each rider saw as the priority issues after the first sit on the horse. Might explain the differing styles :)
 
FfionWinnie said:
Can we have a vid showing him at his best with BB please Armas?
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That would be interesting - from the video of BB the first time he rode Armas I think he is a considerably better rider (for my taste), than the French man. They may have the same basic style but BB, I think, was much better.
 
I am another that has said to James already that I prefer the male trainer. I had a good many reasons for that, some of which have been dealt with by the softening of the female rider, but I do feel that the horse will, in the long term do better under this male trainer.

Billie...I do understand why you would like James to have BB back, but it is his choice if that isn't going to happen. It is none of our business to know or judge on the financials...so if James has said it can't be worked out fairly...then I think we need to respect that.

We are commenting only on what we see and I will be honest, I have seen and understand why
 
James chose the female rider and as I will respect his choice to do that, as we
should all try to do for each other, then I put the other trainers out of mind. Deal with what is in front of you, if you see progress, give it a chance and so long as you are always able and willing
to stop things if you need to then it's ok imo.

Lots of lovely moments with the male trainer but I believe the female trainer deserves a bit more of a chance for now.
 
Sorry GG, what I meant was... BB can't come back, but if he looks closely enough James should be able to see why he suited and perhaps look for a rider with the same core values.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I'm not being funny but why has he regressed back to square one, why could girl rider not pick up where BB left off, and why have you changed the bit/bridle arrangement when it seems to be going well here. Is there no chance of getting David back? I am just curious.
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Absolutely not he lives in Spain and I need a local trainer as I live I France.
 
It really is interesting to read everyone's comments on who they favour. I'm not sure what can be gleaned from it, but it's interesting none the less. The guy isn't perfect by any means but the sparkle Armas shows when ridden by him is evident, to me at least. He shines, yes he gets a little stroppy at times, no biggie, the man brings him back and focuses on moving forward. The whole demeanor of Armas is different with this guy compared to how he is with the girl. If I'm honest, I feel sorry for Armas every time I see the girl work with him, I don't feel that at all when I see the guys ride him. Both guys are similar riders but not the same, the girl reminds me of an underpaid traffic warden who hasn't got her quota of tickets out for the day. She's way too dictatorial for my liking.

G_G, Armas (the owner) asked us which one we preferred.
 
Armas said:
Absolutely not he lives in Spain and I need a local trainer as I live I France.
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Ok but what about the other questions? I am genuinely interested. I know you have had a hard time on these threads but I am really fascinated by this whole thing now, not trying to be horrible or anything.
 
Right, I'm back, and I have a number of things to say to you Mr James... The first being if you don't sack off his current trainer and get that man instead, I am personally coming over to your chateaux to club you over the head:p

Secondly, I spent the entire film transfixed with a huge smile on my face, watching those two was indeed captivating, it was a beautiful partnership, a number of times I was bursting to come on here and post my observations, so enthusiastic was I about what I was watching, but simply couldn't tear myself away.

Very quickly the trainer had the measure of armas and his evasion and by quickly armas realised this, realised he was being corrected, accepted this and softened, armas seemed to really respect this rider and was a willing partner throughout from then on.

Yes, some challenges or as I would rather describe them 'questions' were issued, but look at your horse, his body language, he is listening, he is relaxed, he is willing, he is enjoying being asked these questions and my god he is trying his guts out to answer those questions and not because he is forced... That damn horse WANTS to answer them, he is in his element.

All three strides are wonderful, flowing and a joy to watch... And what is this about a horse btv? I see very little of that with this rider, and when he corrects armas on going btv, I see relaxed acceptance of this correction. I also see and am incredibly impressed by the way the rider allows and encourages a bloody good stretch down and out in all three gaits on a regular basis, allowing armas to stretch his heavily worked muscles, this is KEY to development of muscles in the back and neck, your current trainer only lets armas stretch at the end of a long intensive lesson, you may remember that I commented on this (I think in another thread) I'm very impressed.

Armas, your horse is in his element with this rider, they are a joy to watch, it's like your horse is a different person and he really looks like he loves it and tries so hard... I'm starting to rave, I know, but please please please, seeing this session... A session that had me smiling all the way through, only makes the partnership between his current trainer and him look like more of a car crash, its not that she's bad, she and armas just don't get each other, these two do. She is a square hole suited to a square peg, armas is a round peg, and this trainer his round hole.

Watch the videos of her again, then watch this one, pay particular attention to armas' body language, his ears... How he is listening, willing and bursting with the 'I want to try so hard' attitude, if you don't reconsider after that, then I honestly don't know.
 
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Just wanting to pose a little question about all of the videos really, in response to QB saying that the french woman only allows a stretch at the end.
The videos aren't an uncut stream though... J, when do you stop filming in the middle of a session?
Only asking because if I posted videos of my lessons, say, you would not see the stretch breaks in the middle because they are not filmed :)

I'm just trying to make sure we are all being fair in our assumptions :)
 
milliepops said:
Just wanting to pose a little question about all of the videos really, in response to QB saying that the french woman only allows a stretch at the end.
The videos aren't an uncut stream though... J, when do you stop filming in the middle of a session?
Only asking because if I posted videos of my lessons, say, you would not see the stretch breaks in the middle because they are not filmed :)

I'm just trying to make sure we are all being fair in our assumptions :)
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I assumed level playing field for all riders in that he doesn't video the stretch breaks in the middle of any/all of the training periods? No?
 
Ok, just checking guys as there have been a lot of videos! :) some have stopped and restarted several times so if we assume none are filmed then it's a bit unfair to deduce that they don't happen :)

That's all.
 
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milliepops said:
Just wanting to pose a little question about all of the videos really, in response to QB saying that the french woman only allows a stretch at the end.
The videos aren't an uncut stream though... J, when do you stop filming in the middle of a session?
Only asking because if I posted videos of my lessons, say, you would not see the stretch breaks in the middle because they are not filmed :)

I'm just trying to make sure we are all being fair in our assumptions :)
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I posted my post, as I believe (although I may be wrong) that James posted that one of the videos was an entire session, I only saw armas being stretched at the end of this session, indeed in all the videos I've watched of them together I've only seen her allow him to stretch down in the walk off at the end. However, I lost count with this video of the chap, how many times he allowed armas in a video of the same length to stretch, in all three gaits. Certainly the frequency of stretching in the videos was far higher with the man.

Stretching aside, my opinion is that its not even a case of one trainer being better than another, it's a case of suitability for character and type of horse. Just because a horse is hot and sharp does not mean they must have a softly softly approach, now I personally do not see this woman as softly softly, I see her as pretty unyielding at times, but many who prefer her have said they think her quieter... Personally, I find a high number of hot horses respond far better to constant varying questions, so much is asked of armas by this man, yes, but its the right kind of 'so much' and armas seems to be lapping it up, he seems less focused with evasion, because he is more focused on the questions and answering them... He really seems happy to be there and to be enjoying the fun of the questions, which is quite often the case with hot horses with a good degree of intelligence. If they are strong minded, you must give their minds something to do other than focus on evading
 
SF...I know he was...I had answered with my preference privately last week so as he asked publicly, wanted to answer publicly as well.

:-)
 
Queenbee said:
No idea, however I see lots of stretching on the go, built into the work aspect of his session with the male trainer.
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Well our eyes work similarly then as I saw exactly the same as you :)
_GG_ said:
SF...I know he was...I had answered with my preference privately last week so as he asked publicly, wanted to answer publicly as well.

:-)
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Oopsie, sorry :)
 
Ok, to me he looks 'happier' if that's how you see it because he is not being asked to change his way of going.

I don't mind which approach is deemed best for the horse, its none of my business really, but it seemed to me that he was still going with a short tight neck. The woman*appears* to be trying to influence that aspect of his way of going, to get him 'out' more, which I thought shone through in the long reining video.

Put aside the btv thing for now as he does that with all 3 riders... It's a bit of a red herring. It does come down to what the trainer's primary focus is. They aren't trying to do the same thing.
 
milliepops said:
Ok, to me he looks 'happier' if that's how you see it because he is not being asked to change his way of going.

I don't mind which approach is deemed best for the horse, its none of my business really, but it seemed to me that he was still going with a short tight neck. The woman*appears* to be trying to influence that aspect of his way of going, to get him 'out' more, which I thought shone through in the long reining video.

Put aside the btv thing for now as he does that with all 3 riders... It's a bit of a red herring. It does come down to what the trainer's primary focus is. They aren't trying to do the same thing.
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But isn't it a case again of 'square peg round hole'? His way of going is suitable to his breed type, to me, his only major issue to be corrected is the btv.... He is nice and back on his hocks with the man, more willing and relaxed, tracking up nicely.... I just don't understand why on earth you would try and work against nature, this trainer is working with what he has and making the best he can from the raw ingredients, you can't make rice pudding with spaghetti... He has a lovely natural way of going, I just don't get why you believe she is right to think that needs alteration. Or perhaps the better question is, in the video with the man, what do you think is so wrong with his way of going other than the issue of btv... Which to be honest is far less with him. And do you think that perhaps, he would have addressed far more if he had been training him for a week other than her? She has had a week with armas, he had a day, I'm sure armas, would be far better now from a week with him than he even looks in that initial video.

I've said it a few times, she just doesn't 'get' him, and he doesn't seem to respect her, I mean no insult when I say she should stick to warmbloods, and armas should have a rider more suited to his breed and mentality

Edited to say, that she may get him 'out' more in the LR video, but she does not even allow this to happen in her ridden sessions, so I simply can't see what benefit encouraging this in a LR session could possibly have if she doesn't back it up in the saddle.
 
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Some interesting responses. I debated about which trainer to choose long and hard.I asked Cortez by PM which rider she favoured she opted for the guy and gave me a good explanation of why she liked him.

I also asked a friend who is a UK PRE breeder and trainer on his thoughts.They were as follows.

The Guy

Dear James, I watched all the video to see the difference in the horse's way of going and also read the FB comments. From the video I would say the rider is 'confrontational'. He is not trying to calm the horse down before asking for the work but asking for the work and then coping with the tantrums that follow on the basis that the horse will eventually submit. With horses that have no 'engine' I find this approach works well but with hot horses I find it simply leads to tension in the horse and affects their frame-shape and way of going. In all the work he comes behind the vertical and most times his poll is too high, which makes him hollow his back and not step under well behind. The trot and some of the canter is choppy. This is not collection but the result of tension. I felt that from about 12mins onwards there was some relaxation at times and the rider recognised this and rewarded it. Even so Armas never brought his nose forward to the vertical. I think this rider will be able to get Armas to do movements, be light in the hand and quick off the leg. I also suspect that there will be little cadence in the steps because of the tension that arises when his excitement is constrained.

His view on the girl.

I've watched the video and would agree that she has a softer, non-confrontational approach, which in turn made Armas less argumentative and tense. Because of this, and making assumptions about Armas' temperament, I feel she is a more suitable trainer than the other you showed me. What disappointed me was the total lack of imagination she had when riding him. For the best part of 20mins she just had him running round in very big circles and I did not feel that he looked any better in his way of going at the end than at the beginning. I think I have said it before but Armas seems to have two problems in his way of going, especially at the trot. He is consistently behind the verticle and he has no cadence in his strides. put another way, he gives the appearance that he is pulling himself along with the front legs rather than pushing from his hind legs. And there is not moment of suspension between the trot steps so he is not bouncing from one diagonal to the other. No one seems to be addressing these (fundamental) faults and I would have to challenge either trainer to know if they recognise these faults and if they do, what it it that they propose to do to correct them. The pre-occupation here seems to be pushing him forward all the time without thinking about his balance. I would be very interested to here their view of his way of going to see if it agrees with mine; their method of correcting them may well be successful but in this video I was left with the impression that 'If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got!' A very useful tip about knowing if a horse is either on the forehand or uphill is to imagine the horse with it's front legs cut off! if your mind's eye makes you think it would carry on for a few strides, it's up hill. If it looks as if it would nose-dive straight away, it's on the forehand. Test it on some Grand prix horse videos compared with more average horses and you'll see what I mean!

These were the comments regarding the guy from the BAPSH page.

1. unforgiving with his hands, moves in the saddle like a sack of spuds and offers the horse no release, unsteady lower leg with spur movement, posture needs adjusting, head up etc
30 May at 15:54 · Like · 5

2. what she said
30 May at 15:55 · Like · 4

3. D Not a nice rider, and I am being polite.

Why do you look for a rider that knows the breed ? A good rider is a good rider ... and Iberians are the easiest horses to ride
30 May at 16:55 · Like

4. Dont like the rider. Find a good rider
30 May at 17:14 · Like

5. I 'd not even consider taking my horse to such a trainer - well respected or not. I respect my horses health and training

6.Your horse, you do as you see fit but there are soooo many good riders around , much nicer schooling than this video shows !
Best of luck with it all

7. I wouldn't be happy for him to ride my horse....he's bobbing about all over the place, very tense lower leg and rigid 'backward' hands.....but maybe he trains better than he rides. Good luck!
30 May at 18:21 · Like

8. he does't seem a very sympathetic rider at all

I could not find the comments on FB about the girl they were mixed positives and negatives.

So given all the feed back I received I opted for the girl. When people call me arrogant or I don't listen It pee's me of. I care about my boy immensely I researched both trainers, I balanced the feed back I received and plumed for the girl.

My decision was also based on the following factors. The chap is a very busy trainer. He could not guarantee me that he would be the only one to train my horse. He stated that to start with he would only one to ride him until he was happy with Armases movement. After that it would be a mix of him and another trainer who competes at Prix St. George.

As I have stated I am going to give the girl some time and see what happens. If I feel there is no progression or she is hard with my boy then I will revert to plan B the guy. But the girl has a plan and I want to see how that goes.

To all the posters thank you for taking the time to post some interesting food for thought. QB please don't hit me over the head and NO More yawns :confused:

Its now 4am I need some sleep as we have a session in a few hrs !
 
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