New trainer in action 7

[Mongoose11]

Armas, in all of this what do YOU see? What do YOUR eyes tell you? Why does it take over a hundred other people? (I am guessing this is how many have been involved in this conversation at some point).

 

[DabDab]

Some interesting responses. I debated about which trainer to choose long and hard.I asked Cortez by PM which rider she favoured she opted for the guy and gave me a good explanation of why she liked him.

I also asked a friend who is a UK PRE breeder and trainer on his thoughts.They were as follows.

The Guy

Dear James, I watched all the video to see the difference in the horse's way of going and also read the FB comments. From the video I would say the rider is 'confrontational'. He is not trying to calm the horse down before asking for the work but asking for the work and then coping with the tantrums that follow on the basis that the horse will eventually submit. With horses that have no 'engine' I find this approach works well but with hot horses I find it simply leads to tension in the horse and affects their frame-shape and way of going. In all the work he comes behind the vertical and most times his poll is too high, which makes him hollow his back and not step under well behind. The trot and some of the canter is choppy. This is not collection but the result of tension. I felt that from about 12mins onwards there was some relaxation at times and the rider recognised this and rewarded it. Even so Armas never brought his nose forward to the vertical. I think this rider will be able to get Armas to do movements, be light in the hand and quick off the leg. I also suspect that there will be little cadence in the steps because of the tension that arises when his excitement is constrained.

His view on the girl.

I've watched the video and would agree that she has a softer, non-confrontational approach, which in turn made Armas less argumentative and tense. Because of this, and making assumptions about Armas' temperament, I feel she is a more suitable trainer than the other you showed me. What disappointed me was the total lack of imagination she had when riding him. For the best part of 20mins she just had him running round in very big circles and I did not feel that he looked any better in his way of going at the end than at the beginning. I think I have said it before but Armas seems to have two problems in his way of going, especially at the trot. He is consistently behind the verticle and he has no cadence in his strides. put another way, he gives the appearance that he is pulling himself along with the front legs rather than pushing from his hind legs. And there is not moment of suspension between the trot steps so he is not bouncing from one diagonal to the other. No one seems to be addressing these (fundamental) faults and I would have to challenge either trainer to know if they recognise these faults and if they do, what it it that they propose to do to correct them. The pre-occupation here seems to be pushing him forward all the time without thinking about his balance. I would be very interested to here their view of his way of going to see if it agrees with mine; their method of correcting them may well be successful but in this video I was left with the impression that 'If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got!' A very useful tip about knowing if a horse is either on the forehand or uphill is to imagine the horse with it's front legs cut off! if your mind's eye makes you think it would carry on for a few strides, it's up hill. If it looks as if it would nose-dive straight away, it's on the forehand. Test it on some Grand prix horse videos compared with more average horses and you'll see what I mean!

These were the comments regarding the guy from the BAPSH page.

1. unforgiving with his hands, moves in the saddle like a sack of spuds and offers the horse no release, unsteady lower leg with spur movement, posture needs adjusting, head up etc
30 May at 15:54 · Like · 5

2. what she said
30 May at 15:55 · Like · 4

3. D Not a nice rider, and I am being polite.

Why do you look for a rider that knows the breed ? A good rider is a good rider ... and Iberians are the easiest horses to ride
30 May at 16:55 · Like

4. Dont like the rider. Find a good rider
30 May at 17:14 · Like

5. I 'd not even consider taking my horse to such a trainer - well respected or not. I respect my horses health and training

6.Your horse, you do as you see fit but there are soooo many good riders around , much nicer schooling than this video shows !
Best of luck with it all

7. I wouldn't be happy for him to ride my horse....he's bobbing about all over the place, very tense lower leg and rigid 'backward' hands.....but maybe he trains better than he rides. Good luck!
30 May at 18:21 · Like

8. he does't seem a very sympathetic rider at all

I could not find the comments on FB about the girl they were mixed positives and negatives.

So given all the feed back I received I opted for the girl. When people call me arrogant or I don't listen It pee's me of. I care about my boy immensely I researched both trainers, I balanced the feed back I received and plumed for the girl.

My decision was also based on the following factors. The chap is a very busy trainer. He could not guarantee me that he would be the only one to train my horse. He stated that to start with he would only one to ride him until he was happy with Armases movement. After that it would be a mix of him and another trainer who competes at Prix St. George.

As I have stated I am going to give the girl some time and see what happens. If I feel there is no progression or she is hard with my boy then I will revert to plan B the guy. But the girl has a plan and I want to see how that goes.

To all the posters thank you for taking the time to post some interesting food for thought. QB please don't hit me over the head and NO More yawns

Its now 4am I need some sleep as we have a session in a few hrs !

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing what I see when I look at the video of the man schooling. He's not the sort of Iberian trainer I would want near any horse of mine, because I believe that the resulting horse, while very desirable to some people is not at all desirable to me.

 

[milliepops]

Thank you armas, thats really interesting.

Regarding the breed type argument about his way of going, I'm curious as to whether people would approach other breeds in the same way.
E.g. a cob built on the forehand with shuffley paces. Or a TB with a long strung out frame. Would you aim to show them a different way of going? Or leave them to it?

Ok, if you want a modern GP dressage horse it probably makes sense to start with a wb. But I don't think J wants a GP horse, he wants a horse that *he* can ride and do a bit of everything with. That's more difficult with a horse that you have to effectively perch on and that is so tentative down the rein. So I don't actually see a problem in trying to get the horse out into the rein and more over the back.

I've seen PREs in competition that are still typey but loose and through the 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[Armas]

Armas, in all of this what do YOU see? What do YOUR eyes tell you? Why does it take over a hundred other people? (I am guessing this is how many have been involved in this conversation at some point).

As I have said and I am watching the training first hand. I saw to very different approaches I still am happy with the female trainer. She has a good plan and is sticking to it but also adapting on the fly as needed.
She talks about the feel of Armas what she can ask and can not ask of at this point. So my eyes say stick with her. As said by Millipop the BTV is a redhearing but an important one that I am desperat to change.
Armas is a sweet kind horse I ride him with and with out a saddle with out an issue. The only issue is when he is asked to work on the flat.
He has the capacity & intelligence to learn and I love watching him progress and develop.

 

[Armas]

I wonder when it becomes the point that you stop asking everyone else's opinion and choose with your own mind and heart.

I wonder at what point you become less annoying

 

[_GG_]

I wonder when it becomes the point that you stop asking everyone else's opinion and choose with your own mind and heart.

He has chosen and he chose before asking anyones opinion. Further to that, despite many people asking he is continuing to choose to stick with this trainer which only a few of us agree with so I am not really sure there is any basis to that question.

I would much rather see horse owners lay themselves open to criticism but possibly learn something and be constantly trying to do the best by their horse, than do what they want and assume that that is ok.

It is a brilliant forum, but it's just a forum. A place for James to get ideas, many of which he is taking on board and some of which, quite rightly, he is ignoring.

 

[Patterdale]

Anyone who's saying that you should ride an Iberian horse the same as any other horse, clearly doesn't ride many Iberian horses......

 

[cornbrodolly]

When I see a horse being ridden my first thoughts are - is the horse enjoying this/look confident/willing oris he drilled/dominated/bored/jaded.
To me its not the type of training , but how its done. And for OP - what is the end purpose of training this horse?
However, personally I think the second rider is dulling the horse - the endless BTV will jade and antagonise the horse. yes, the first rider is perhaps not as 'controlled' , but the horse looks alive and 'in conversation'. The seconfd vid shows a horse that has 'no voice' but rather dominated and given rigid perameters.
I think Spanish horses are sensitive and noble - it would a shame to train the horse into an automaton.

 

[_GG_]

Anyone who's saying that you should ride an Iberian horse the same as any other horse, clearly doesn't ride many Iberian horses......

Anyone who thinks you should ride any horse the way you do another horse should give up riding alltogether.

The 8 PRE's I trained as a teenager were all different. They had their similar traits, but were still all different so I rode them differently.

The couple of hundred ex racers I have retrained or helped retrain over the years have all been different.

The point you make should be valid...but not for a type of horse...it should be made simply for horses in general...IMO

 

[milliepops]

Anyone who's saying that you should ride an Iberian horse the same as any other horse, clearly doesn't ride many Iberian horses......

I don't often respond to digs but If that was aimed at me, tbh I'm not sure how it adds to the conversation really. I was raising a general question about aspiring towards the scales of training regardless of breed, which no one has responded to. That's fine, I'm happy to put things out into the ether

I am not really pushing one way or the other. I've said before I find myself firmly in the defence corner for the french woman partly because I just hate to see people ripped apart when they are not here to defend or explain themselves. particularly when this trainer has already been selected and has shown some good work


I see positives in all of the riders. I assume people are doing their best with an open heart. I assume they have well thought out aims agreed with owners. I assume riders and owners have their eyes open. Perhaps I'm naive! I like to see the best in people and situations.

 

[DabDab]

I think you have been one of the most balanced and fair posters in this discussion Milliepops, I have no idea why Patterdale decided to have a dig, which was seemingly directed at you

And in answer to your question, yes i do think that PREs are able to be ridden in such a way that they do well in modern dressage - surely the PREs competing at grand prix level are testament to that.

This discussion reminded me of an article I read a while back: http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=20346

 

[milliepops]

And in answer to your question, yes i do think that PREs are able to be ridden in such a way that they do well in modern dressage - surely the PREs competing at grand prix level are testament to that.

I see them at lower levels around me, but at the top I think one I have in mind through all of this is Rubi ridden by Goncalo Carvalho at the Olympics. I know that's a luso but still within the 'Iberian' bracket
I thought that horse did one of the most stunning performances of the show. A VERY happy athlete. Through, active, willing, soft... you name it

 

[Caol Ila]

That video made for interesting watching.

He certainly is not the prettiest or most refined rider I have ever seen and I see what James means by "confrontational." However, in the parts of the video where they weren't getting into wee arguments, the horse looked much more correct than he does in the videos with the female rider on him. He was much longer through the neck and through behind -- flexing the joints of the hindleg and bringing it underneath himself. You can see he is much more open in his throatlatch overall. In the videos with the lassie, he moves very flat and often very strung out, barely tracking up. And while others on this thread seem to be able to see improvement between the first and seventh sessions, I really don't.

I know one of the people James quoted from the Facebook page said the horse lacked cadence. That is surely a measure of the horse's level of training, and to get that cadence you see in an upper level horse, you first need to get the horse stepping through from behind. I think the Portuguese guy has more success at getting this horse to do that.

I suppose neither is perfect. I would have imagined that France is awash in flat-cap wearing classical French dressage trainers, but maybe not!

 

[ester]

I did just watch the day 23 BB video, I certainly think at that point he was well ready to have been out doing some prelim/novice tests (well around here anyway!)

 

[DabDab]

I suppose neither is perfect. I would have imagined that France is awash in flat-cap wearing classical French dressage trainers, but maybe not!

I'm glad I'm not the only one with that mental image of the French equestrian scene

 

[DabDab]

I did just watch the day 23 BB video, I certainly think at that point he was well ready to have been out doing some prelim/novice tests (well around here anyway!)

Yes BB certainly seemed to ride him very well

 

[TrasaM]

I much prefer the bloke James. Yes Armas was going BTV at times but he didn't stay there for long. It was really interesting watching how Armas responded to him and trying to figure out what was expected of him but he was getting some lovely action from him despite riding like a "sack of spuds
I watched the various videos of the woman riding him but they were dull dull dull. Armas just seems to tuck in his chin and endure her on his back and nothing much changes. She keeps doing the same old thing - he keeps doing the same old thing
I'm very much a novice rider so my opinion counts for very little -Nada but I am just saying how I Felt watching the two riding styles.

This whole discussion has been interesting and informative for me too. Thank you James for sharing Armas's journey.

 

[FionaM12]

I wonder when it becomes the point that you stop asking everyone else's opinion and choose with your own mind and heart.

That's very rude and personal.

Tbh I think James does go with his own mind and heart, which doesn't mean he can't open up his decisions for wider debate, or even reconsider those decisions later as a result of input.

I'd rather see a horse owned by someone who asks for advice and opinions than someone who thinks they know it all and never listens to other views.

 

[Patterdale]

Wasn't having a dig at milliepops - didn't get past page 1 tbh, where there were enough silly comparisons made to provoke my response.
Reading back it does look a little like I was having a go at milliepops - but I wasn't this is why we need the quote function in the mobile site!

It just really riles me when people who obviously know bob all about Iberians start comparing them to warmbloods. They're totally different animals!

 

[milliepops]

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying Patterdale - have already been effectively accused elsewhere of riding my own horse into a state of misery by someone who AFAIK has never seen or met me, so forgive me for donning a kevlar suit in this thread I do try to take it all in good humour

 

[Queenbee]

Well, I've said my piece... I think it's a huge sadness that things will continue as they are, and not just because of who he is being trained by and how uncomfortable the sessions are but because he must be bored senseless with the repetition, I have no idea why it isn't more of a priority for James to jump on his own horse and enjoy it.

I simply find some of this madness it may well be that the female trainer gets him going, but at what cost?

 

[_GG_]

Well, I've said my piece... I think it's a huge sadness that things will continue as they are, and not just because of who he is being trained by and how uncomfortable the sessions are but because he must be bored senseless with the repetition, I have no idea why it isn't more of a priority for James to jump on his own horse and enjoy it.

I simply find some of this madness it may well be that the female trainer gets him going, but at what cost?

Well, I put a post up in one of the threads last week kind of along the same lines. As a general comment. I do believe that we are blessed to be able to share our time with these magnificent beasts. I do not believe we have the right to make them do anything for us, because we want it.

How this works for me is that I don't use force on my own horses and don't teach it to any of my clients. There are gadgets available that can work, but I prefer to take a bit more time and get to a better place through choice, not force.

My own youngster will be a great example of this. I wanted her to be either a young dressage horse for me or a project to sell on in a couple of years, when she is well established as honestly, I can train most horses to PSG, but I have my limitations and my complete lack of motivation for competition would hold her back. Her movement is soooo big that even she doesn't really know what to do with it at the moment, the signs are all there that she will make a very special and super talented little dressage horse. BUT...she will do a bit of everything through her training. If she is happiest when jumping but depressed doing flatwork, then you know what...I will search for a really good jumping home for her rather than try and make her fit what I want.

I simply don't believe we have the right to force an animal into something it doesn't want to do. Obviously, they sometimes don't want to do simple daft things like walk through a gate because a new flower has grown and we can make them do that...but even then, a wrap around the legs is not something I would do.

With this horse, Armas, it is very hard to say what would be for the best as we are not there and not riding the horse. There are parts of the training I agree with and parts I don't. Giving this rider a chance, I agree with...working from the ground with side reins, I don't. Working this horse regularly, I agree with. If I were being hyper critical, I would say that I have always found that horses learn best with a three days on, two days off schooling system...but that does vary depending on the horse and the feedback they give me. Put simply, I always find that a lot of what we are trying to teach them is actually absorbed when they are resting. Hacking out is wonderful for in between schooling days as a leveller for the horse, but again, different horses will have different needs specific to them. James knows his horse and knows better than us when his horse is happy and when he is not.

In terms of the horse not looking happy in the videos, well, TBH I find that largely irrelevant.

My reason for that is that, no horse looks happy when it is being worked through issues that need dealing with. On the flip side, they will look much happier when given chances to do what they want. The male rider gives the horse more chances to do what he wants which equals a happier looking horse. The female trainer is trying for consistency and whilst I would change some of the things she does, in all, I feel that she is helping the horse to understand in the simplest form that his evasion will not stop the contact. The more he learns this...and he is not being hurt in the process...the more he will be able to lift his frame and work through properly.

So, a happy looking horse under saddle is great to look at, but if the horse is happy because it is being given periods where the questions stop being asked, then I actually think that that can delay progress and be more confusing to the horse. I prefer to see consistency, not a constant changing of contact. Simple rewards for correct work, then back to the same, with occasional rest periods.

How I determine how happy a horse is is to assess what they are like when not being ridden. Are they still playing with fieldmates? Are they still nudging you and annoying you when you try to do things around them. Are they still happy to see you walk towards them? Are they still alert and interested in what is going on around them? If a horse continues to be the way s/he normally is, then the training is not affecting them mentally in a bad way IMO. If however, the horse starts to lose some of its zest for life, becomes uninterested in things, stops being his normal self, then I think there is a chance that s/he is being mentally affected by the training.

I no longer have any idea what I am saying or if it makes any sense

I just don't think we can say with any certainty that what is being done with this horse is either right or wrong. We can just go on what we see. I don't like it all, but I do see massive improvements. The only thing I would change is the groundwork. I would only lunge freely with a lunge line and cavesson as I feel that side reins will do nothing but reinforce the horses desire to evade the contact...because they cannot give like a riders hand.

 

[Caol Ila]

We may have to agree to disagree on the progress made my Armas under this trainer. I don't see her giving or softening in response to the horse uncurling his neck. Anyway... we can go on endlessly about what we see or don't see.

Interesting philosophical questions about what and when you should make an animal do something. I had a wee bit of a disagreement with a horse the other week because the horse wanted to hang out with its friend in a paddock adjacent to the arena and I wanted her to walk or trot along the rail, away from the other horse. I said to her owner, "We're not making massive demands of the horse here. We are simply asking that, for the thirty minutes we have her in the arena here, that she pay attention and go where we tell her to." Horse at this stage isn't being asked for any sort of outline or demanding work, but simply that she obey basic steering aids and not decide that she'd rather be chatting to her mate over the fence. I'm sure it is more fun, but she has 23 hours per day to talk to her horsey friends.

I think we all draw lines. I have said of horses, "She doesn't want to be a dressage horse so I'm not going to make her miserable by doing lots of dressage." At the same time, I will make it in their best interests to listen to me on some counts. If I point their nose in a certain direction, they really must go there (I have some exceptions to this rule, like the shotgun and mountain lion exceptions, and my horse knows this). Over time, as they come to know you, I suppose you work out a compromise with them: "You really must do as I tell you, but I promise, I won't ask you to do anything that you're physically or mentally not capable of doing, and I will reward you when you try."

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I cannot believe these threads are still running on and on and on and on........

OP- I can see why you would want other people's opinions I can but unfortunately on the internet and a massive open forum such as this one you will always get a variety of opinions and so if you are looking for reassurance or affirmation that you have chosen the correct trainer for your horse...I'm not sure whether you'll get it or just a confused state of mind.

At the end of the day, he is your horse. If you are happy with the trainer that you have picked then really, that is all that matters since you are the owner of Armas.

Honestly, if I were you I would not post another video on here for another few weeks, wait until this partnership is more established and when you can see whether or not she is having the effect you desire with Armas. If so then post another video in a few weeks when a big improvement can be seen.

I think these posts have been really interesting and have raised some good ideas/thoughts. However, how het up and angry some people have got over the matter, I find very weird. Surely people must have bigger things to worry about? Armas is a well cared for, loved horse. You clearly want the best for him and I am certain that he will get there in the end. If you were employing a trainer who was visibly beating him up or being deliberately nasty whilst on board then fair enough. Yes, there is a divide over her riding and yes, perhaps at points she could be more forgiving with the contact, but big deal there are far worse riders/trainers out there and yes, perhaps far better but it's how accessible those trainers are to you.

 

[_GG_]

We may have to agree to disagree on the progress made my Armas under this trainer. I don't see her giving or softening in response to the horse uncurling his neck. Anyway... we can go on endlessly about what we see or don't see.

Interesting philosophical questions about what and when you should make an animal do something. I had a wee bit of a disagreement with a horse the other week because the horse wanted to hang out with its friend in a paddock adjacent to the arena and I wanted her to walk or trot along the rail, away from the other horse. I said to her owner, "We're not making massive demands of the horse here. We are simply asking that, for the thirty minutes we have her in the arena here, that she pay attention and go where we tell her to." Horse at this stage isn't being asked for any sort of outline or demanding work, but simply that she obey basic steering aids and not decide that she'd rather be chatting to her mate over the fence. I'm sure it is more fun, but she has 23 hours per day to talk to her horsey friends.

I think we all draw lines. I have said of horses, "She doesn't want to be a dressage horse so I'm not going to make her miserable by doing lots of dressage." At the same time, I will make it in their best interests to listen to me on some counts. If I point their nose in a certain direction, they really must go there (I have some exceptions to this rule, like the shotgun and mountain lion exceptions, and my horse knows this). Over time, as they come to know you, I suppose you work out a compromise with them: "You really must do as I tell you, but I promise, I won't ask you to do anything that you're physically or mentally not capable of doing, and I will reward you when you try."

Love that last paragraph

 

[_GG_]

I cannot believe these threads are still running on and on and on and on........

OP- I can see why you would want other people's opinions I can but unfortunately on the internet and a massive open forum such as this one you will always get a variety of opinions and so if you are looking for reassurance or affirmation that you have chosen the correct trainer for your horse...I'm not sure whether you'll get it or just a confused state of mind.

At the end of the day, he is your horse. If you are happy with the trainer that you have picked then really, that is all that matters since you are the owner of Armas.

Honestly, if I were you I would not post another video on here for another few weeks, wait until this partnership is more established and when you can see whether or not she is having the effect you desire with Armas. If so then post another video in a few weeks when a big improvement can be seen.

I think these posts have been really interesting and have raised some good ideas/thoughts. However, how het up and angry some people have got over the matter, I find very weird. Surely people must have bigger things to worry about? Armas is a well cared for, loved horse. You clearly want the best for him and I am certain that he will get there in the end. If you were employing a trainer who was visibly beating him up or being deliberately nasty whilst on board then fair enough. Yes, there is a divide over her riding and yes, perhaps at points she could be more forgiving with the contact, but big deal there are far worse riders/trainers out there and yes, perhaps far better but it's how accessible those trainers are to you.

Great post

 

[Queenbee]

Well, I put a post up in one of the threads last week kind of along the same lines. As a general comment. I do believe that we are blessed to be able to share our time with these magnificent beasts. I do not believe we have the right to make them do anything for us, because we want it.

I agree with this entirely, for me, spending my life simply imposing my will and desires on a horse would take the fun out of it, currently I have a beastie whos latest evasion is to throw his head up (waaay up) and charge of in exhuberance when he is cantering behind another horse, now on that level, this is something we have to work on, primarily because its not comfy for me, not safe for either of us and because its not doing him any good physiologically, however, on a weekly basis we have fun in the school, a jump session over a max of 2ft for a max of 5 mins, either at the end of a schooling session or the end of a short hack, we also have a good two or three hacks alone and in company, he loves his variety, and to ride a happy horse who is willing and well adjusted is what makes me want to ride.

How this works for me is that I don't use force on my own horses and don't teach it to any of my clients. There are gadgets available that can work, but I prefer to take a bit more time and get to a better place through choice, not force.

Again, to a certain extent I do agree, although i will say my mare came to me as a huge stargazer, she was also friesian x and had a high natural headcarriage, I used DR on her whilst hacking, to stop her head going all the way up, if her nose was poking out at a relaxed level, just bimbling along, that was fine, all I didnt want was that stupid emu look, which was as above, uncomfortable and physiologically potentially damaging in the long term. Once I had her head a little bit lower than the stars My tactic was to ride for miles with her, taking it slowly, one day her back came up and her head went down, she had a lightbulb moment, realising that it was far easier and more comfortable this way, but it took a fair few months!

My own youngster will be a great example of this. I wanted her to be either a young dressage horse for me or a project to sell on in a couple of years, when she is well established as honestly, I can train most horses to PSG, but I have my limitations and my complete lack of motivation for competition would hold her back. Her movement is soooo big that even she doesn't really know what to do with it at the moment, the signs are all there that she will make a very special and super talented little dressage horse. BUT...she will do a bit of everything through her training. If she is happiest when jumping but depressed doing flatwork, then you know what...I will search for a really good jumping home for her rather than try and make her fit what I want.

This is exactly my philosophy

I simply don't believe we have the right to force an animal into something it doesn't want to do. Obviously, they sometimes don't want to do simple daft things like walk through a gate because a new flower has grown and we can make them do that...but even then, a wrap around the legs is not something I would do.

With this horse, Armas, it is very hard to say what would be for the best as we are not there and not riding the horse. There are parts of the training I agree with and parts I don't. Giving this rider a chance, I agree with...working from the ground with side reins, I don't. Working this horse regularly, I agree with. If I were being hyper critical, I would say that I have always found that horses learn best with a three days on, two days off schooling system...but that does vary depending on the horse and the feedback they give me. Put simply, I always find that a lot of what we are trying to teach them is actually absorbed when they are resting. Hacking out is wonderful for in between schooling days as a leveller for the horse, but again, different horses will have different needs specific to them. James knows his horse and knows better than us when his horse is happy and when he is not.

In terms of the horse not looking happy in the videos, well, TBH I find that largely irrelevant.

My reason for that is that, no horse looks happy when it is being worked through issues that need dealing with. On the flip side, they will look much happier when given chances to do what they want. The male rider gives the horse more chances to do what he wants which equals a happier looking horse. The female trainer is trying for consistency and whilst I would change some of the things she does, in all, I feel that she is helping the horse to understand in the simplest form that his evasion will not stop the contact. The more he learns this...and he is not being hurt in the process...the more he will be able to lift his frame and work through properly.

So, a happy looking horse under saddle is great to look at, but if the horse is happy because it is being given periods where the questions stop being asked, then I actually think that that can delay progress and be more confusing to the horse. I prefer to see consistency, not a constant changing of contact. Simple rewards for correct work, then back to the same, with occasional rest periods.

How I determine how happy a horse is is to assess what they are like when not being ridden. Are they still playing with fieldmates? Are they still nudging you and annoying you when you try to do things around them. Are they still happy to see you walk towards them? Are they still alert and interested in what is going on around them? If a horse continues to be the way s/he normally is, then the training is not affecting them mentally in a bad way IMO. If however, the horse starts to lose some of its zest for life, becomes uninterested in things, stops being his normal self, then I think there is a chance that s/he is being mentally affected by the training.

I no longer have any idea what I am saying or if it makes any sense

I just don't think we can say with any certainty that what is being done with this horse is either right or wrong. We can just go on what we see. I don't like it all, but I do see massive improvements. The only thing I would change is the groundwork. I would only lunge freely with a lunge line and cavesson as I feel that side reins will do nothing but reinforce the horses desire to evade the contact...because they cannot give like a riders hand.

In terms of 'happiness' I do think it does contribute to a horses ability to learn, a happy horse will learn far faster than one begrudging the work he/she is doing. With regards to the male rider giving him more chances to do what he wants vs the female rider keeping a consistent contact throughout, I personally feel that if a horse does what you ask it to then some form of reward should be provided to that horse as an incentive for giving you the behaviour you are asking for, that is what I see the male doing, asking a difficult question, getting the desired response from Armas, then rewarding him by backing off completely... isnt this what we are always taught 'pressure and release' by maintaining that contact all the time, armas is under constant pressure, he may in some way learn he cant evade contact, but he also learns that there is no benefit in doing what this rider asks of him, I personally think the male rider is very clear and consistent in his approach in a different way, he asks, he gets, he rewards, armas knows he will get some down time for doing what he is asked and so he does what he is asked and becomes more willing, in my opinion there simply must be an incentive for the horse to learn, a carrot at the end of the stick.

In terms of happiness and achievement, a bored horse is not a joy to watch, just imagine if I like many people didnt like statistics, I then had to do a degree in the damn stuff... I would flunk and hate every minute of it, I would switch off in class, but say I really found it intersting (which I do) I would achieve far higher because of my enjoyment and interest. I also know of many people who sat through exactly the same lectures as I did, and didnt learn a thing, they then sat down with me and I tutored my group and explained it in a different way... they then got it, were interested in it, asked questions about it and came out with the same 85-95% coursework marks consistently that I did.

You are right of course in that we do not know armas, but we do know what we see, I feel I will find it much harder to watch the female trainer on his back now, since having seen the male trainer.

 

[Queenbee]

We may have to agree to disagree on the progress made my Armas under this trainer. I don't see her giving or softening in response to the horse uncurling his neck. Anyway... we can go on endlessly about what we see or don't see.

Interesting philosophical questions about what and when you should make an animal do something. I had a wee bit of a disagreement with a horse the other week because the horse wanted to hang out with its friend in a paddock adjacent to the arena and I wanted her to walk or trot along the rail, away from the other horse. I said to her owner, "We're not making massive demands of the horse here. We are simply asking that, for the thirty minutes we have her in the arena here, that she pay attention and go where we tell her to." Horse at this stage isn't being asked for any sort of outline or demanding work, but simply that she obey basic steering aids and not decide that she'd rather be chatting to her mate over the fence. I'm sure it is more fun, but she has 23 hours per day to talk to her horsey friends.

I think we all draw lines. I have said of horses, "She doesn't want to be a dressage horse so I'm not going to make her miserable by doing lots of dressage." At the same time, I will make it in their best interests to listen to me on some counts. If I point their nose in a certain direction, they really must go there (I have some exceptions to this rule, like the shotgun and mountain lion exceptions, and my horse knows this). Over time, as they come to know you, I suppose you work out a compromise with them: "You really must do as I tell you, but I promise, I won't ask you to do anything that you're physically or mentally not capable of doing, and I will reward you when you try."

I think the one thing that really sticks out to me with all these trainers is when I watch BB and the male trainer, I feel 'that horse wants to be a dressage horse' when I watch the woman, I feel 'that horse doesnt want to be in the arena and doesnt have it in him to be a dressage horse' Dressage is pivotal on the correct partnership, just look at tortillas and how he spiraled since being sold

 

[_GG_]

QB...I prefer the male trainer too. But I don't think he is without fault. I don't like the female trainer as much as him...but I don't think she is without good points.

I've had draw reins on my ex racer...for the first few hacks as she would flip her head so high I'd have no control. Luckily never had to use them as a good kick on sorted it, but I will try to never be a hypocrite, which is why I say I don't like the use of gadgets as opposed to, they should all be banned, they have no place etc.

 

[Queenbee]

QB...I prefer the male trainer too. But I don't think he is without fault. I don't like the female trainer as much as him...but I don't think she is without good points.

I've had draw reins on my ex racer...for the first few hacks as she would flip her head so high I'd have no control. Luckily never had to use them as a good kick on sorted it, but I will try to never be a hypocrite, which is why I say I don't like the use of gadgets as opposed to, they should all be banned, they have no place etc.

I agree with you completely We are both of the same opinion that the man is better for Armas (as I said, in our opinion) but neither rider is as you quite rightly say without fault or good points.

I also agree with you on the second statement, this is also my standpoint, benny has always been in a loose ring snaffle with a double joint and lozenge... (other than at the big show) he is ridden in a saddle and a cavasson comfort bridle... however, I now have to rethink this on the company hacks to get him to kick the habit and was debating between DR and a standing, Ive opted for the standing as I worry about him getting tangled up on some of the more overgrown routes we go through, gadgets have a place, but for my mind more from a safety aspect than anything else, because like your racer... I simply have bog all control when he does it, and to sort him out I currently have to drop the rein contact... not something I enjoy doing with a four year old careering along behind another horse at canter Anyway, until we get our new saddle, we are taking it easy for a few weeks, all plans have been put on hold so perhaps he will forget his latest game and I wont need a standing on him at all