New trainer in action.....

[_GG_]

Looking forward to seeing how she progresses.

 

[Tickles]

Saw the video, thought what I wanted to say and then realised this thread probably already has 10 pages of people saying it...

Would not be happy to see my (or indeed any other) horse ridden the way OP's was in the initial video. The WB above looks much happier but that is no excuse for how miserable Armas looked and how over bent he was.

No point messing around with different speeds within a pace/lateral work next week etc if you can't have him going forward willingly to start.

Sorry to hear that you're sticking with her for now OP. Hope something changes before horse's mouth ruined and/or he gets totally sick of schooling.

 

[YasandCrystal]

This video of her riding the WB is much better - but I took a look at the other videos and if that is her riding the Gribaldi KWPN then he is btv again in the video and looks very tense.
Totilas was not ridden in competition in the manner in which he is purported to have been trained in by Edward Gal; if you understand my reasoning. So a competitive dressage test is really no proof of the training ability of a trainer imo, especially if you want to go the classical route. The WB in the video's hind leg gait in no way matches the front and that would raise a question to me on the training methods used.

 

[Booboos]

I know this thread is very long but just two things if I may.

Firstly, I hope the trainer has consented to having her videos publicly and openly (her name is on the second video) criticised on HHO. Posting one's own videos is one thing, posting someone else's always requires the courtesy of asking them for permission (and maybe warning them about the ensuing 10 page critique!!!).

Secondly, I honestly think most horses benefit from training and most people benefit from lessons, but on this occassion I think by far the best riding of Armas is by the OP. Some horses are sensitive and prefer to bond with one person. Why not try taking some time off from training with others and riding him exclusively by yourself to see what happens?

 

[Armas]

I know this thread is very long but just two things if I may.

Firstly, I hope the trainer has consented to having her videos publicly and openly (her name is on the second video) criticised on HHO. Posting one's own videos is one thing, posting someone else's always requires the courtesy of asking them for permission (and maybe warning them about the ensuing 10 page critique!!!).

Secondly, I honestly think most horses benefit from training and most people benefit from lessons, but on this occassion I think by far the best riding of Armas is by the OP. Some horses are sensitive and prefer to bond with one person. Why not try taking some time off from training with others and riding him exclusively by yourself to see what happens?

Its a youtube video thus in the public domain. Videos I don't want to share I set to private.

I want to progress both of our training hence enlisting help.

 

[Mongoose11]

Has that second vid been posted to suggest that the trainer is brilliant really? She didn't ride Armas like that though...she was very hard on him.

Still really dislike how much she braces.

Hoping that the next vid is better and you can tell me to stick it

 

[_GG_]

Has that second vid been posted to suggest that the trainer is brilliant really? She didn't ride Armas like that though...she was very hard on him.

Still really dislike how much she braces.

Hoping that the next vid is better and you can tell me to stick it

The proof will be in the pudding I guess. No two horses are the same and so one training method will not suit all, but I have spoken with Armas by PM about this and I do feel this rider deserves to be given a chance. She isn't doing anything necessarily damaging or irreversible, she isn't pulling the horse anywhere he doesn't put himself. The biggest issue is that she doesn't give him opportunites to come out of that place, even when he asks for them.

I have laid my feelings out for all to see...but I am still open to having them changed. We can't learn new and better ways of doing things if we don't give ourselves a chance to see them.

Put aside any reservations and wait for the results. I don't expect any of us will be pleasantly surprised, but it is when we completely close ourselves off to new ideas that we start to do our horses a disservice if that makes sense.

 

[Caol Ila]

I too will be watching Armas' progress. I have my reservations (and would not want to see my own horse ridden like that) but hey, her methods might work for him.

The video of the WB didn't totally sell her to me. Like someone else pointed out, the hind end didn't quite match the front. However, the horse looked happy enough in his work and not held in the outline.

Now here's someone who knows his way around an Iberian horse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbWh_VpIN8Q&feature=youtu.be

If I lived in France, I'd be seeking out someone of the Saumur school. But that's just me.

 

[Bexx]

Thanks....and +1 to the comment os collection.

If however the rider just works on allowing him to relax, she will be better able to "hear" when he gives her opportunities to allow for proper stretching. In the video it appears that every attempt Armas makes at taking the contact down or out are heard by the rider as deeper evasion, so he is never given the opportunity.

I would work on the principal of relaxation first, contact second.

If he isn't at first relaxed and swinging without contact, you won't get him relaxed and swinging with it...hence tension, hence rushing, hence firmer contact, hence evasion.

This exactly, I'd much rather see this horse moving forward, relaxed and swinging through its back, with his nose poked out or his head in the clouds. Once he is happily moving forward in a relaxed manner then you can work on his head carriage. He did not look happy in my opinion. As a fairly new member, I have not seen any other video of this horse. He is very nice and I can see obvious potential, which to me is hindered by the rider. She may not be asking him to come behind the vertical, but she is not giving him any opportunity to come above

 

[wildwest]

awful just bloody awful ..........i wouldnt let her groom my boy let alone ride him .
your boy will be back at square one very quickly

 

[angelish]

another one here finding this thread and some of the more constructive comments on it very interesting , looking forward to seeing how Armas gets on with this trainer

thanks for posting the video op and thanks to the more experienced posters taking the time to reply in such depth

 

[Cortez]

I too will be watching Armas' progress. I have my reservations (and would not want to see my own horse ridden like that) but hey, her methods might work for him.

The video of the WB didn't totally sell her to me. Like someone else pointed out, the hind end didn't quite match the front. However, the horse looked happy enough in his work and not held in the outline.

Now here's someone who knows his way around an Iberian horse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbWh_VpIN8Q&feature=youtu.be

If I lived in France, I'd be seeking out someone of the Saumur school. But that's just me.

Ah, the beautiful Odin; yes that's the way to do it, but that is the finished horse and Armas is a long way away from that, however he gets there. Best of luck to you and your horse, I look forward to following his progress with this new trainer.

 

[meesha]

I am a numpty when it comes to dressage and schooling but thinking on a very basic level would it not be an idea to remove schooling for the time being, hack etc and see if he will relax and stop trying to go btv, a break is sometimes a good thing. Get him interested in new surroundings and experiences and it may break the habit.... Like I said I am a numpty novice so I am prepared to be shot down in flames....

 

[_GG_]

I am a numpty when it comes to dressage and schooling but thinking on a very basic level would it not be an idea to remove schooling for the time being, hack etc and see if he will relax and stop trying to go btv, a break is sometimes a good thing. Get him interested in new surroundings and experiences and it may break the habit.... Like I said I am a numpty novice so I am prepared to be shot down in flames....

I think he had an enforced break recently due to choke so has had time away from work. Some horses are just testy and difficult. Just like some people are.

 

[meesha]

Didn't realise had already had break just thought if only work he ever does is in the arena it may help. Reading with interest as great input from people, not least u GG

 

[Armas]

Didn't realise had already had break just thought if only work he ever does is in the arena it may help. Reading with interest as great input from people, not least u GG

We hack out on a regular basis and have not long returned from 3 days beach riding. Plus he has just had a few weeks rest from a choke.

 

[Queenbee]

A really interesting thread, GG I think I am in love with you, your posts are spot on and really good to read. Bright Bay, I couldnt agreemore, contact should always be sought by the horse, if it is obtained by some other means, then in my opinion, it is not true contact.

With regards to the video, it doesnt make for comfortable viewing, and to an extent I do agree with other posters. For the most part, I like to set a horse up to suceed and enjoy, this makes training and their mindset so much easier. The ongoing battle between rider and Armas does not look like he is either being set up to succeed or even rewarded or encouraged for trying. That being said, I do know what it is like to own/train and ride argumentative, hot headed horses... its no mean feat, and I have had some messy sessions in years gone by, I prove my point and the next session, they make strides of progress. with strong willed horses with bags of attitude, sometimes this battle of wills is needed. From watching the video, Im not certain it is needed here, but I do not know the horse, or the reality so will leave it there.

I do however, believe that there is no possible chance of contact or correct work being achieved by running a horse around to an extent that it flattens out... that trot is far to fast for anything good to come out of it in terms of Armas' training. I to am a supporter of the belief that you should be slowing that riiiiiight down.

Someone mentioned that Armas does not look sound behind, I would not exactly go that far, he does look a 'little short/stiff/off' but the improvement back there is very noticeable.

FWIW: I do agree, such a dramatic change in trainers and training methods will be blowing his brains and I would far prefer to see a classical trainer on his back, one who would undoubtedly be far more used to training his breed. I would not be happy with him being ridden in that manner, or by someone who is taught under a 'rolkeur' trainer. To be fair, its not even the rolkeur thing... the rider herself looks tense, doesnt seem to get him, her hands, and her method with him... I personally think will send him backwards. However, I do get that you want to let it run for a few more sessions to see if they settle in a bit together, but if they dont... boot her off him... I dont think he likes her

 

[rhino]

Didn't realise had already had break just thought if only work he ever does is in the arena it may help. Reading with interest as great input from people, not least u GG

It was a good idea As already said, Armas has had some time out due to injury but has also had periods where he was only being hacked.

I don't know the horse but get the impression he is a very sweet little horse until he is asked to put some real effort in, in which case he immediately resorts to overbent and rushy. As I've said to A, I think there are some gaps in the horse's basic training which hopefully will be addressed

Another who has found the discussion here fascinating

 

[Cortez]

I once had a private conversation with a certain Carl Hester about a Spanish horse he had in for training a while ago (no names). He said it was one of the most difficult processes he's ever gone through as the horse was so utterly different and reacted differently from the type of horses he was used to, he (Carl) found it very, very difficult and admitted that he was uncomfortable as his usual "tool kit" was not working.

 

[Caol Ila]

When the Spanish trainer started working with this horse and Armas posted videos, you could see that the horse's first port of call, when he didn't know what the trainer wanted, was to overbend and rush. The trainer was very quiet through all that and every time Armas reached his nose out and looked for the contact, even if it was only a tiny change, the trainer would give him a big, obvious release. Those releases were what seemed to be missing from this video. As other posters have pointed out, the horse did uncurl himself on several occasions but only found resistance from the rider.

 

[kerrieberry2]

I'm no professional but I've watched quite a few of your videos in the past and I've always enjoyed watching them but I honestly don't like the way this woman is riding him, it just look really uncomfortable

sorry!!

 

[Caol Ila]

I once had a private conversation with a certain Carl Hester about a Spanish horse he had in for training a while ago (no names). He said it was one of the most difficult processes he's ever gone through as the horse was so utterly different and reacted differently from the type of horses he was used to, he (Carl) found it very, very difficult and admitted that he was uncomfortable as his usual "tool kit" was not working.

Somewhere on the web is a video of Carl riding a Spanish horse at some kind of demo thing and talking about how the horse was different to his usual collection of warmbloods. He spoke at length about how he was riding and training the horse and the sorts of issues typical of Spanish horses. I was hunting for that video this afternoon to post on this thread and utterly failed to find it again.

 

[Mongoose11]

So have we concluded that Armas needs a trainer who is experienced in working with Spanish horses? Didn't someone suggest that about 6 months ago

Armas isn't an alien species and he isn't the hottest horse in the World. I just can not fathom, still, why Armas stood and watched that and wasn't alarmed?

Why does it take a hundred random women to tell how what is wrong with that picture?

I know I just need to shut up, I am doing my own head in so apologies. It just makes me Aaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[_GG_]

So have we concluded that Armas needs a trainer who is experienced in working with Spanish horses? Didn't someone suggest that about 6 months ago

Armas isn't an alien species and he isn't the hottest horse in the World. I just can not fathom, still, why Armas stood and watched that and wasn't alarmed?

Why does it take a hundred random women to tell how what is wrong with that picture?

I know I just need to shut up, I am doing my own head in so apologies. It just makes me Aaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhh!

Why?

It's not a pretty video and we have all voiced our opinions, but also, this rider was chosen for a reason. I have seen another video of her riding this horse and it was completely different. I feel I need to point that out here as the assumption is that this is just how this rider rides.

I say it often, but assumption is a talent of the foolish. We don't know everything from one video.

Whenever you watch something, you have to allow for the fact that it is just a snapshot of a much bigger story.

I totally understand why you're frustrated...just remember, the more you shout, the less likely you are to be heard!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Okay, my two penneth worth (not that it's worth a lot) after now having watched the video.

I'm going to be honest. I think she rides well but not GREAT. She is okay. Don't get me wrong, I am no Charlotte Dujardin myself but her riding isn't actually that great, or at least not in this vid, however I know this is just one video and her position is okay so I'm not saying she isn't a good rider.

It is all a bit too braced and tense for me. I can see what she is trying to do with him re pushing him forwards into the contact and yes, obviously, with horses that have a tendency to go BTV this can work but not to the extent that she is pushing him. There is no rhythm or softness over the back. It is rushed and tensed.

If it were my horse I would like to see him worked long and low and through and swinging over his back and relaxed, once he is at this point and it could take 30 mins or 3 sessions, I would gradually start to pick him up, all the time whilst pushing him through with the leg. I would basically break it all back down again from scratch and 'rebuild' him so to speak. Going BTV is probably Armas's way and he will probably always have a tendency to do this is worried or tense etc but I don't think the above way is the best way to get him out of it.

I do not know Armas's history so my comments may me totally null and void (and no doubt are) I am unaware of what he has done previously and what training he has had.

It is very easy for me to sit behind my screen and criticise and I am well aware that he probably isn't an easy horse and don't get me wrong, I think she rides well, I just don't think in that video she rides great.

I also don't get the slapping of the neck thing? Is she telling him off or rewarding him? If the latter, I think a gentle stroke to encourage him to come down into the rein/contact and lengthen more would be more effective than a slap when he's got it right.

I will follow with interest as we will probably all eat our words Lovely horse btw.

 

[Mongoose11]

Why?

It's not a pretty video and we have all voiced our opinions, but also, this rider was chosen for a reason. I have seen another video of her riding this horse and it was completely different. I feel I need to point that out here as the assumption is that this is just how this rider rides.

I say it often, but assumption is a talent of the foolish. We don't know everything from one video.

Whenever you watch something, you have to allow for the fact that it is just a snapshot of a much bigger story.

I totally understand why you're frustrated...just remember, the more you shout, the less likely you are to be heard!

I know, I know. My biggest weakness. I am an idiot. I have much more of a handle on it in real life

 

[Armas]

As I said I am going to give her time I like her plans and what she wants to do.
The work we are carrying out is a mix ridden work lunge work hacking out and long reining. So he is going to have a very varied time.


[youtube]afqBYLplnh8[/youtube]

 

[_GG_]

I also don't get the slapping of the neck thing? Is she telling him off or rewarding him? If the latter, I think a gentle stroke to encourage him to come down and lengthen more would be more effective than a slap when he's got it right.

I will follow with interest as we will probably all eat our words Lovely horse btw.

My girls love having their necks scratched...so when I do this, i just quietly drop my hand below the wither and give them a little scratch.

I know, I know. My biggest weakness. I am an idiot. I have much more of a handle on it in real life

Me too...I never normally post so much on any one thread/topic, lol. No idea why this one has got me so involved. Maybe it's just that I love seeing horses improve and seeing owners so willing to help that.

If only I could ride as well as I could teach or coach, lol. Even the great Carl Hester said that to me many many years ago so I have no hope

 

[milliepops]

I do however, believe that there is no possible chance of contact or correct work being achieved by running a horse around to an extent that it flattens out... that trot is far to fast for anything good to come out of it in terms of Armas' training. I to am a supporter of the belief that you should be slowing that riiiiiight down.

Not specifically aimed at you QB as several people have mentioned it and yours was just the latest in the thread but I really don't agree that a horse needs to go slowly in order to soften and relax over its back. Granted there are times in the video where he appears pushed out of his rhythm (feeling charitable, I wondered to myself whether the trainer was asking for some lengthening but as there was too much tension she got scuttling instead, it happens).

Again I can only speak from my own experience,I haven't trained lots of spanish horses but they are just that, horses -their basic biomechanics etc are still the same, surely? I've ridden lots of stressy arabs and my own bay ball of tension and personally I often find lots of forward work can be the key to release over the back and neck, esp with a very hot horse. Trying to keep all that energy contained can sometimes just create more resistance.

Anyway, it's a very early view of a work in progress, right? I look forward to future videos.

 

[_GG_]

Not specifically aimed at you QB as several people have mentioned it and yours was just the latest in the thread but I really don't agree that a horse needs to go slowly in order to soften and relax over its back. Granted there are times in the video where he appears pushed out of his rhythm (feeling charitable, I wondered to myself whether the trainer was asking for some lengthening but as there was too much tension she got scuttling instead, it happens).

Again I can only speak from my own experience,I haven't trained lots of spanish horses but they are just that, horses -their basic biomechanics etc are still the same, surely? I've ridden lots of stressy arabs and my own bay ball of tension and personally I often find lots of forward work can be the key to release over the back and neck, esp with a very hot horse. Trying to keep all that energy contained can sometimes just create more resistance.

Anyway, it's a very early view of a work in progress, right? I look forward to future videos.

Speed isn't the problem....excessive speed is.