New trainer in action.....

[milliepops]

Only watched the first 6 mins of the lunge video so far but that kind of confirmed to me what I was thinking I think She did exactly what everyone wanted - rewarded him for stretching forward-down-out, which he did after being sent forward when he tried to curl up.

I don't think anyone needs to worry about rollkur!

 

[_GG_]

Only watched the first 6 mins of the lunge video so far but that kind of confirmed to me what I was thinking I think She did exactly what everyone wanted - rewarded him for stretching forward-down-out, which he did after being sent forward when he tried to curl up.

I don't think anyone needs to worry about rollkur!

+1

 

[milliepops]

Speed isn't the problem....excessive speed is.

Oh, absolutely, I do agree with you. And there's an important distinction between forwardness and speed. I suppose I have my own hang up about people (not on here specifically, I'm not wanting to single anyone out) trying to slow down a horse in order to ride 'dressage'.

And I'm another one who has been carrying this thread around in my head all day

 

[_GG_]

Oh, absolutely, I do agree with you. And there's an important distinction between forwardness and speed. I suppose I have my own hang up about people (not on here specifically, I'm not wanting to single anyone out) trying to slow down a horse in order to ride 'dressage'.

And I'm another one who has been carrying this thread around in my head all day

Yeah....I have no idea what page the post is on where I wrote about that. With horses like this, asking for slow can mean asking for collection without even realising it...some just plain get the two confused. Not at all helpful with most hot horses but not typing it all out again...probably written too much already

 

[cundlegreen]

Yeah....I have no idea what page the post is on where I wrote about that. With horses like this, asking for slow can mean asking for collection without even realising it...some just plain get the two confused. Not at all helpful with most hot horses but not typing it all out again...probably written too much already

Having just found this thread, I'll have my two pennies worth. I used to specialise in reschooling horses like this one, they are the most rewarding to work with. I know nothing of his history, but looked up some more videos of him. The man riding him, to my mind suited him much better. He broke the cycle of hurried and tense by lot of transitions and leg yielding, and then THE INSTANT the horse responded, he gave to him. The most interesting video to me was the one of Armas loose schooling. A TOTALLY different horse, no tension, a period of suspension in trot, and head well in front of the vertical. This is why I always want to see a horse loose rather than under saddle. If you see naturally good paces, then its up to the rider to try and replicate them under saddle.
The new rider rides well, but I see no point in just going round and round flat out. The horse is just running away from pressure and the flash noseband doesn't help, its just one more thing for him to fight against. I would have thought lots of spiralling circles, first at walk, then at trot, with frequent transitions and rewarding with a softer hand should be the way forward. Similarly with the two rein lungeing session. Because of the reins' position, Armas has a lot of pressure on his mouth, and is just running through it. Look at how much jerk he gets in the mouth on the outside when his quarters come back. I would always work a horse like this in the Danish method, to keep the rein as light as possible.
By the way, I do know something of this type of horse. I was lucky enough to ride Lusitano stunt horses when I was a teenager, and the first thing I learn't was to not think of getting hold of their mouths, but to do it all from the seat. A good lesson to learn! I do hope that he improves under his new regime.

 

[kerilli]

Again I can only speak from my own experience,I haven't trained lots of spanish horses but they are just that, horses -their basic biomechanics etc are still the same, surely? I've ridden lots of stressy arabs and my own bay ball of tension and personally I often find lots of forward work can be the key to release over the back and neck, esp with a very hot horse. Trying to keep all that energy contained can sometimes just create more resistance.

This is where language fails us, I think. Because slowing it down and 'trying to keep all that energy contained' are not at all the same thing, to me.
I knew a good trainer who called it 'trotting into the hand'... she was adamant that you should use NO leg at all on this sort of horse at this point, just let the horse take you, steady it with your rising, and let it seek the forward-thinking contact. Not necessarily easy...!
I'd like to see him going slowly in relaxation, seeking the rein forwards/downwards while in a rhythm that suits him, not being pushed out of his natural rhythm. Quietly ridden, rather than ridden actively forward, I guess... but even then language fails a bit, because of course he should still be forward, just not fast forward! I wonder if it's easier in German...

 

[Caol Ila]

This is where language fails us, I think. Because slowing it down and 'trying to keep all that energy contained' are not at all the same thing, to me.
I knew a good trainer who called it 'trotting into the hand'... she was adamant that you should use NO leg at all on this sort of horse at this point, just let the horse take you, steady it with your rising, and let it seek the forward-thinking contact. Not necessarily easy...!
I'd like to see him going slowly in relaxation, seeking the rein forwards/downwards while in a rhythm that suits him, not being pushed out of his natural rhythm. Quietly ridden, rather than ridden actively forward, I guess... but even then language fails a bit, because of course he should still be forward, just not fast forward! I wonder if it's easier in German...

When a horse would go forward, but flat and rushing on its forehand, an old trainer of mine referred to it as "vomiting" energy. This was her way of saying that while you certainly don't want the horse slow, lacking in impulsion, behind the leg, you don't want to feel that it's going "blurghhhh!" out the front end, either. The analogy made sense to me anyway! It did result in interesting lesson commentary, with the trainer shouting things like, "Don't let her puke!"

I'm sure the Germans have a better word.

 

[OEH]

I hardly ever post, but I own a similarly hot Iberian (a lusitano). This is NOT the solution with fizzy little Iberians. The classical solution is SLOW SLOW SLOW. This allows them time to find their own balance, and when they are balanced they don't feel the need to go over bent. It has worked wonders for my boy who is now so calm and a joy to ride. I concentrate on keeping a nice even rhythm, within his natural cadence, forward but NOT fast. I do my best to make my hands 'the best hands they can possibly be'- still and quiet so that he can learn to trust them.

Please don't confuse poor Armas.

 

[Wagtail]

Well I really like the rider. She is responding to all Armas's evasions by adjusting hand position to maintain a straight line from elbow to bit. Her contact is light. Her hands move around in RESPONSE to what she is feeling from the horse. Sometimes this gives thefalse impression that she is too active and fussy with her hands. She is not. She also uses her seat and slows her rising to slow the rhythm rather than use her reins. Very nice rider.

 

[_GG_]

More talk of slow and containment of energy and riding from the seat, not the hand and what to do with the legs.

I agree with most points...nice to see so many singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

Love the vomiting analogy. I say to clients, you may as well fill your bath with the plug out! I prefer the puking one

I have said privately to Armas that If it were me riding, I would not be trotting until the horse was ready for it. This beautiful horse can relax really well in walk and canter, but the tension comes in trot. For that reason, I would do just walk work until I had a relaxed Armas, then canter work in a half seat to allow the back to swing, stretch all the muscles out, let him relax and find his rhythm. He seems to like the canter and relax into nicely, so I would use that. When relaxed, start the trot work and I would do this without ever actually letting my weight sit into the saddle. Keeping the half seat even in the rising trot. He can't be expected to take a riders weight when he is struggling to move correctly. If he becomes tense in the trot, I'd push into canter to relax. If he gave a few good, relaxed trot strides, I'd come back to walk and reward.

Constantly doing the same thing will constantly get you the same results.

Don't run before you can walk type approach works a lot of the time.

All of this said, I reiterate that this is not our horse and we can only offer our opinions. I believe Armas is doing the right thing in giving this trainer a chance and believe wholeheartedly that he will not continue with something that will not work for his horse.

 

[Cortez]

I hardly ever post, but I own a similarly hot Iberian (a lusitano). This is NOT the solution with fizzy little Iberians. The classical solution is SLOW SLOW SLOW. This allows them time to find their own balance, and when they are balanced they don't feel the need to go over bent. It has worked wonders for my boy who is now so calm and a joy to ride. I concentrate on keeping a nice even rhythm, within his natural cadence, forward but NOT fast. I do my best to make my hands 'the best hands they can possibly be'- still and quiet so that he can learn to trust them.

Please don't confuse poor Armas.

This This This ^^^^

 

[Honey08]

When a horse would go forward, but flat and rushing on its forehand, an old trainer of mine referred to it as "vomiting" energy. This was her way of saying that while you certainly don't want the horse slow, lacking in impulsion, behind the leg, you don't want to feel that it's going "blurghhhh!" out the front end, either. The analogy made sense to me anyway! It did result in interesting lesson commentary, with the trainer shouting things like, "Don't let her puke!"

I'm sure the Germans have a better word.

I actually really like that expression! It does draw a picture of the energy being churned out but not untilised.

 

[Queenbee]

Not specifically aimed at you QB as several people have mentioned it and yours was just the latest in the thread but I really don't agree that a horse needs to go slowly in order to soften and relax over its back. Granted there are times in the video where he appears pushed out of his rhythm (feeling charitable, I wondered to myself whether the trainer was asking for some lengthening but as there was too much tension she got scuttling instead, it happens).

Again I can only speak from my own experience,I haven't trained lots of spanish horses but they are just that, horses -their basic biomechanics etc are still the same, surely? I've ridden lots of stressy arabs and my own bay ball of tension and personally I often find lots of forward work can be the key to release over the back and neck, esp with a very hot horse. Trying to keep all that energy contained can sometimes just create more resistance.

Anyway, it's a very early view of a work in progress, right? I look forward to future videos.

No, I get what you are saying and a correctly trained horse should be able to soften and work correctly at all paces... I too am one who envokes the practice of taking it up a notch sometimes, but the way I do this is as follows:

say we are having difficulty in walk, I will up the tempo to trot, trot off for a while, bring back to walk and we have better engagement, softness and general way of going.

If we are having issues in trot, up we go to canter and then, suddenly, when we come back to trot, the issues dissolve.

For me the purpose of a 'speedy trot' would be to then, bring that trot back to a nice working steady pace and achieve correct way of going in that pace... if however, they are looking for softness and acceptance in the speedy trot, perhaps I would go up a level to canter and bring it back... in the case of armas... I just dont see that going around at such a speed... looking pretty flattened and not so soft, does anything, since the rider doent really change the rhythm. So yes, I do agree that going up a gear can help, but only if you come back down the gears! Also, completely agree that a horse should be able to work well in a fast pace, but he clearly isnt up to it yet.

edited to say:

Speed isn't the problem....excessive speed is.

it took me paragraphs to write what GG sums up in one line

 

[Jingleballs]

I have mentioned stretching and being allowed to take the head down and out a few times in this thread and to be honest. Didn't think to explain my personal definition of stretching. Someone on this thread a page or two ago mentioned being unconvinced by the stretching trend. We may differ on our reasons, but so am I.

I will explain my reasons now in the interest of transparency...I am not one to hide

So...to many, stretching is about taking the horse long and low. Wanting the make the horse go in a long and low outline with a predetermined idea of what that looks like.

Many people achieve this by use of pessoas, long side reins, long draw reins or even just asking with the hands when riding, trying to push the horse forward into a long and low outline.

To me, all horses are completely different. An approach that works for one will not work for another. A frame that is natural for one will not be natural for another. To push a horse outside of what he finds natural and comfortable will cause tension of some sort, whether we want to admit it or not. Everyone agrees tension is not good.

So, do we try and find ways to make a horse go in that long and low outline we have pictured in our minds? No...I don't think we should.

Again, as I say with everything, I like to listen to the horse first and formulate a plan second. I will lunge with a simple lunge cavesson and lunge line, nothing else. No boots or bandages unless really needed, no other tack. If the horse wants to have mental moments, I let them go for it...I just talk calmly to them and make sure I move with them so as not to pull them into hurting themselves. I let the horse be what it wants to be...go how it wants to go, move how it wants to move and carry itself how it wants to carry itself. I do as little as possible, but just watch, listen and learn.

When a horse starts to relax into the lunging and just move freely around you, you start to see them come down into their own comfortable balance. For my ex racer, this is with her neck long outstretched in front of her, her ears about level with her withers sometimes going just below and her nose just bobbing up and down as her back swinging pushes the motion along her neck. When she is like this, she tracks over by about a foot in trot, more in walk. Her canter is where she lifts her frame up a bit and tucks her chin in a bit. Not because I ask, that is just what she is showing me is where she is comfortable in the canter as opposed to in the trot or walk.

My youngster Molly likes to go around almost all the time with her nose only about a foot off the ground except cant where she lifts up a a bit the same as fly.

Two horses, same trainer (me) two totally different natural ways of going.

So...when riding Fly I will just ride forward, not rushed, but off the leg and give her her head to do with what she wishes. She has a sweet point when doing this where all of a sudden her movement becomes huge underneath me, hard to even rise to the trot let alone sit and to see from the ground, her motion is huge, swinging free relaxed all along the back and my presence on her seems irrelevant to her action.

If I tried to make Molly carry herself the same way, she would tense against it. If however I ride Molly where she is comfortable, then she too will relax and swing freely.

Now, if you want to compete you can't do a dressage test with a horse looking like a beach donkey, no matter how good the movement or how engaged the hind end is. The judges want connection and that is where contact comes in.

In my opinion, if you try to create a contact and self carriage in a more rounded frame from the horses naturally comfortable carriage, you will have a relaxed and happy horse. Doing a few strides of "work" to start then allowing back to natural. Working it up to a few minutes, then just using the natural way of going as breaks during each session. This method seems to keep the horses relaxed. They tend to look for the contact when you start to take it up and they are consistent in it.

If however you are fixated on having your horses head at a certain angle and height in the "stretching" it may not be where that horse is comfortable. It might be where someone else tells you the horse needs to be, but not necessarily where the horse actually needs to be in order to be relaxed. So...if you ask for contact and connection from a horse that is not completely happy and relaxed where his currently is, he won't be relaxed trying to change his frame.

Hope that makes sense.

Is is of course all of my opinion and I am no expert...just being clear on what I mean. I think there is too much emphasis on long and low and stretching which can mean very often that it comes at the cost of what is actually comfortable and natural for each individual horse.

Brilliantly put!

 

[2horsesnomoney]

Ok i dont normally post on this sort of thing but.... Aramas I dont know you personally so please forgive me, IF you choose this rider then that is your choice and none of our businesss.
But I would say her hand position although tense and slightly restrictive is good nice elbow hand bit all in line and this is maintained throughout, your horse is running onto his forehand and "ploughing a field" rushing his rhythm is never going to help this he needs steady rhythmical work to improve this and take his weight behind and work towards a contact, your rider does not know her diaganals and is using the wrong exercises fo this horse. Remember impulsion is NOT speed. The lateral work is hard to watch and this horse needs a sympathetic rider he is consistantly overbent and a restrictive and tense hand will not help this she does not allow him to take the contact forward even on the occasion he offers it, He is weak behind and his soundness is questionable TBH he needs work in walk and slow trot using excersizes to engage his hindq and encourage a forward contact.
to be honest I would not let anyone linked to THAT rider or trainer whithin a mle of my horse rollkur is a vile training method.

 

[milliepops]

OMG I must stop looking at this thread but it's just so interesting Can't get any blooming work done

your rider does not know her diaganals

A couple of people have picked up on this ^^. I seem to remember a discussion (maybe on here, possibly on the BD forum) about how different countries rise on different diagonals. Out of interest, perhaps someone who has ridden/trained abroad can confirm? Either way, in the grand scheme of things it's not really the most significant issue for me in this case

No, I get what you are saying and a correctly trained horse should be able to soften and work correctly at all paces... I too am one who envokes the practice of taking it up a notch sometimes, but the way I do this is as follows:

say we are having difficulty in walk, I will up the tempo to trot, trot off for a while, bring back to walk and we have better engagement, softness and general way of going.

If we are having issues in trot, up we go to canter and then, suddenly, when we come back to trot, the issues dissolve.

For me the purpose of a 'speedy trot' would be to then, bring that trot back to a nice working steady pace and achieve correct way of going in that pace... if however, they are looking for softness and acceptance in the speedy trot, perhaps I would go up a level to canter and bring it back... in the case of armas... I just dont see that going around at such a speed... looking pretty flattened and not so soft, does anything, since the rider doent really change the rhythm. So yes, I do agree that going up a gear can help, but only if you come back down the gears! Also, completely agree that a horse should be able to work well in a fast pace, but he clearly isnt up to it yet.

Get what you are saying and I suppose I was making more of a general point rather than condoning pushing a horse out of its rhythm. Plus while reading through a few posts like this one below stuck out at me, and I suppose are a key example of Kerilli pointing out how we all have different understandings of the same words/concepts depending on our own experiences:

This exactly, I'd much rather see this horse moving forward, relaxed and swinging through its back, with his nose poked out or his head in the clouds.

My own training and experience has been that a horse poking its nose into the sky can't swing through the back, and so taken with a lot of (perhaps misconstrued on my part then) 'slow down' posts... a horse going overly slowly with its nose poking will never become soft and supple, just more resistant and hollow. That's the baggage I bring to the thread based on the horses I've ridden hence the importance I place on forwardness

So much easier to get on and feel than try to put it into words, isn't it!

 

[YasandCrystal]

OMG I must stop looking at this thread but it's just so interesting Can't get any blooming work done

My own training and experience has been that a horse poking its nose into the sky can't swing through the back, and so taken with a lot of (perhaps misconstrued on my part then) 'slow down' posts... a horse going overly slowly with its nose poking will never become soft and supple, just more resistant and hollow. That's the baggage I bring to the thread based on the horses I've ridden hence the importance I place on forwardness

So much easier to get on and feel than try to put it into words, isn't it!

I agree to a degree, but for my training the lowered neck/head carriage comes after the horse starts using their backend and swinging through.

 

[milliepops]

I agree to a degree, but for my training the lowered neck/head carriage comes after the horse starts using their backend and swinging through.

Does it come after, specifically, or do they come together? I would def not want to see the horse ridden from front to back, don't get me wrong, but I often find that a more telescoped forward-down neck and engaged hind legs, soft back etc all tend to come along at the same point, the result of the horse accepting the aids & mentally/physically relaxing.

I don't know if I've ever ridden a horse that swings without being 'round' , whether that's up in a working/comp shape or forward-down-out (not RK, I must add, since that has been mentioned again recently)
Perhaps it's just a gap in my own understanding

 

[2horsesnomoney]

i really really must do some work but..

OMG I must stop looking at this thread but it's just so interesting Can't get any blooming work done



A couple of people have picked up on this ^^. I seem to remember a discussion (maybe on here, possibly on the BD forum) about how different countries rise on different diagonals. Out of interest, perhaps someone who has ridden/trained abroad can confirm? Either way, in the grand scheme of things it's not really the most significant issue for me in this case

This would be interesting to know, and your right it is not the biggest issue with the rider or video. Just an observation.


Get what you are saying and I suppose I was making more of a general point rather than condoning pushing a horse out of its rhythm. Plus while reading through a few posts like this one below stuck out at me, and I suppose are a key example of Kerilli pointing out how we all have different understandings of the same words/concepts depending on our own experiences:



My own training and experience has been that a horse poking its nose into the sky can't swing through the back, and so taken with a lot of (perhaps misconstrued on my part then) 'slow down' posts... a horse going overly slowly with its nose poking will never become soft and supple, just more resistant and hollow. That's the baggage I bring to the thread based on the horses I've ridden hence the importance I place on forwardness

I dont think anyone is suggesting to go really slowly it is important to have impulsion and rhythm for me this horse has been pushed out of its rhythm to creat more speed I think there is a happy middle ground.

God must do some work! its so interesting how we all interpret these things it is also difficult from a video i guess.



So much easier to get on and feel than try to put it into words, isn't it!

 

[weebarney]

I wonder what he would be like bitless?

 

[PolarSkye]

Aramas,

I'm not really up on all with your horse but I have a somewhat difficult mare that I decided this year I would change just about everything. She was jumped at 5 by a "trainer" and of course the draw reins found their way because pretty headset means working from behind. Not really. Anyway long and short of it is that I happened upon a website called Science Of Motion and their Facebook page. So for me things started to make sense. I really wasn't convinced by all this stretching nonsense to be honest.

Anyway long and short, I started my mare back lunging in a headcollar only. Oh the horror not telling them how to use themselves to make them stronger. What I wanted was "lift" in the back not stretch. My own theories here so no technical aspects. So instead of gadgets I used poles. Both raised and flat on my lunge circle. I did not have to use gadgets to get my horse comfortable carrying herself while also using herself. As in to a certain degree they must find a way they suits them within reason. Then I started back riding. I used to find myself letting her make the decisions because she was frazzled after the jumper thing. I thought I was being nice and trying to show her I wasn't going to get upset with her no matter what. Wrong answer. I needed to be definite and positive with her for her to gain confidence in me. So good another little milestone passed. Canter was spurt off and go in a tizzy and panicky. So I got off her back used a pole to ask for canter. Believe it or not I can balance one this way and no it does not mean on their forehand. She has learned self carriage in canter this way and it's relaxed and happy. As she gets stronger my position will change and we will work on adjustability. But now I have a mare willing working on the bit and offering me a lovely rounded lifting position. This has never happened before. Arena's drive her mad and so I keep things short and mix things up with walks. I do not need her competing fit at the moment and I'm more than happy for this foundation to come slowly because it's the first time it's been correct. More surprising is the way she has built muscle correctly by not falling into the trap of "this is the only correct way" that is all modern training.

I am in no means an expert but from watching the video your horse is struggling and it seems forceful to me. I am so glad after 2 years I finally stepped out of the box and said screw it, this will be different. Most of my time is spent starting youngsters and it was racehorses. So continuing on has not been my thing has not been my area. Canter should not be fast to slow down. Finding where they are comfortable and then working on adjustment from there. Even and rythmical not necessarily speed. Anyway, yammered enough and need to go reapply sunblock to noses.

Terri

Terri speaks much sense and I agree with everything written above . . . particularly the highlighted section. You really do seem to want to do right by your lovely horse . . . but you also seem to be casting about a little, and I seem to recall that you have had multiple trainers for Armas - each with a slightly (or not so slightly) different style. I think you need to think hard about what you want Armas to achieve, and then find and stick with the right trainer to get him there.

Best of luck.

P

 

[YasandCrystal]

Does it come after, specifically, or do they come together? I would def not want to see the horse ridden from front to back, don't get me wrong, but I often find that a more telescoped forward-down neck and engaged hind legs, soft back etc all tend to come along at the same point, the result of the horse accepting the aids & mentally/physically relaxing.

I don't know if I've ever ridden a horse that swings without being 'round' , whether that's up in a working/comp shape or forward-down-out (not RK, I must add, since that has been mentioned again recently)
Perhaps it's just a gap in my own understanding

I am just going on all the inhand work I am doing with my trainer on my WB and my Dales youngster. He has a naturally high head carriage, but the minute he becomes supple and moves using his back his head drops and you can see he is comfortable and flowing.

 

[Loulou2002]

I didn't understand what she was doing either.

Her hands weren't very light. I know you say Armas goes behind the vertical as an evasion, but I couldn't see her giving him any opportunities to be correct. She looked heavy and bracey in her contact. And the more she drove him forward, the more on his forehand and "rollkurey" he looked.

I'm no expert but i didn't like her hands either. I have a horse that goes behind the vertical and i'm being constantly told to give to encourage him to stretch down.

 

[_GG_]

This thread gets more and more interesting

My take on the horses ability to move and swing freely with his head poked into the clouds vs being able to move and swing freely as the head also drops a bit (sorry for condensing so brashly) is this...

To put one horses way of going as an expectation on another is only going to do a disservice to both horse and rider.

For one horse the swinging back may come when the head and neck are held in line with the withers.

For another horse the swinging back may not come until the head is a little or a lot lower than the wither...or it may come with the head above the wither.

However...trying to help the horse by using it's natural ability and state as a starting point will be impossible if we have a predetermined idea of where the head should be when the back swings, what tempo the horse is at when the back swings and so on.

If we really want to help our horses, we will serve them better by listening to them. Riding them quietly at different tempos and in different paces always being soft and listening for that sweet spot where it all clicks in and they swing and relax into a fluid movement...we will find that it might not be where we expected it to be.

Never expect a horse to have the ability to alter the motion it was born with. Instead, listen for the moments it gives you to enhance that motion...wherever they may present themselves.

Iberian horses are so very different to ride than big swingy warmbloods. Their motion is so different, so we just can't expect the same results with the same input.

 

[Palindrome]

Iberian horses are so very different to ride than big swingy warmbloods. Their motion is so different, so we just can't expect the same results with the same input.

I don't know, may be because my mare is a Dutch harness horse and only 16hh she wouldn't properly qualify as a big warmblood, but she definitely has the star gazing leg mover tendency. I find that with her as with our 2 PREs, the answer to get more engagement is generally lateral work. Perhaps because I am from the French school, but shoulder-in is definitely part of the warm up every time .
My opinion on tightening the reins when the horse curls in is that it's gonna work but only by making the horse hard mouthed.

I should add I have very very modest competition experience and am not a great rider, but I do pride myself in having turned a hollow backed stresshead into a soft engaged little mare who likes to school. It's all about doing suppling exercises and working in a nice rythm where the horse settles naturally, going for relaxed and correct over flashy.

 

[Goldenstar]

The horses conformation radically affects its ability to go L and L the very uphill horse will find it hard and take longer to develop the ability to do it .
I have one very uphill built horse I have no mirrors at home the first time I saw his stretch in a mirror I got a shock what felt like quite a good stretch for him was in fact a baby stretch in the the mirror but he was in a stretch and was unable to more at that time , a small correct stretch benefits more than a more extravagant at first glance incorrect one where the horse is running onto its forelegs.
Ps he's a ditch harness horse as well ,like Palindrones .
They are bred to 'move with their legs' getting their body's involved is hard work.

 

[doriangrey]

"Equine Anatomy verses Equine Anatomy

There are two types of horse’s anatomy, the one supporting the thought that lowering of the neck stretches upper neck and back muscles and the real horse’s anatomy which contradict such beliefs. Even if they theoretically refer to the same horse, the two anatomies are totally different. One of the strong arguments of long and low proponents is that elongating the head, reaching with his nose forward increases the stretching of the upper neck muscles. The expression commonly use is “stretching through the bit.” The problem with the claim is that the muscles that move the head are not the muscles that lower the neck. There are 21 pairs of muscles moving the head, including reaching the nose forward. They do not elongate at all the upper neck muscles. In fact, reaching with the nose forward shortens the upper element of one of the upper neck muscles.

The two main muscles involved in the lowering of the neck are the splenius and the semispinalis capitis. The splenius is not even inserted on the skull. The muscle is inserted laterally on the nuchal crest. Beside its main function, that is resisting the lowering of the neck, the lateral insertion of the splenius on the upper end of the nuchal crest allows the muscle to bend the head and neck laterally. Instead, the muscle does not elongate at all when the horse nose reaches forward. The other main upper neck muscle, which is the semispinalis capitis, does have its upper element that is inserted on the upper crest of the skull. However, in order to move the horse’s nose forward, the upper compartment of the semispinalis capitis has to pull the skull back and therefore the muscle does not elongate but at the contrary shortens in concentric contraction. I am talking about compartment because the semispinalis capitis is built in numerous compartments. The muscle does have an internal tendon and there are 6 elements situated below the central tendon and 7 compartments situated above. Such architecture is convenient for the horse as it permits numerous variations of movements such as lateral bending, rotations, etc. By contrast, the construction contradicts the stretching theories which think that the muscle elongates as a whole. Due to its architecture of compartments, the compartments situate at the base of the muscle can have a totally different action than the compartments situated at the top.

Most of the stretching theories believe that the lower neck muscles, which are the muscles situated below the cervical vertebrae pull the head and neck down stretching the upper neck muscles. The reality is totally different. The lowering of the neck is not created by the lower neck muscles because they don’t have the power to elongate the upper neck. Instead, the lowering of the neck is created by gravity. The horse’s head and neck weight about 10% of the horse’s body mass and gravity is pulling the neck and head down. The upper neck muscles resist the attraction of gravity and therefore allow some lowering resisting attraction of gravity. Some studies define the upper neck muscles’ resistance as isometric hold, which means that the muscle contract without elongating or shortening. Other studies refer to the muscular work as eccentric, which means that the muscles contract while elongating. Eccentric contraction is also called active stretch. This needs to be soundly interpreted. Active stretch or eccentric contraction is the most powerful type of muscular contraction. Such contraction can be between 15 to 50 times stronger than concentric.

The term relax is often used in the stretching theories. Whatever the neck position, the splenius stiffens as the front hoof impacts in order to resist the acceleration of gravity created by the impact forces. This stiffening that occurs twice per stride is part of the locomotor mechanism at the walk, the trot and the canter. If the neck was relaxed, the head and neck would drop at each impact.
The main argument of the stretching proponents is that the horse “stretches” naturally lowering the neck after work. There is a strong ligament named nuchal ligament that connect the cranial thoracic vertebrae and the skull. The nuchal ligament is not under tension when the neck is up into an alert position. The ligament comes under tension when the neck is lowered into a more horizontal position. The purpose of the nuchal ligament is reducing the work of the upper neck muscles. At the walk, the nuchal ligament eases the work of the upper neck muscles by 55%. At the trot and canter, the nuchal ligament eases the work of the upper neck muscles by 32 to 36%. The horse does not stretch the neck, he simply eases the work of the upper neck muscles placing the neck into a more horizontal position and therefore using the passive resistance of the nuchal ligament.

Proponents of the long and low theory make statements but rarely explain how it works. When they do, they invent a horse anatomy that fit their beliefs. Recently was published a perfect example of “convenient” anatomy. The type of anatomy that fit the belief but is not even vaguely related to the way the horse physique is effectively built and functions. “Since the neck is attached to the withers and the withers to the large muscles over the top of the back, the stretch can reach far back toward the hips.” This is plain false. The two main back muscles are the longissimus dorsi, which is in fact composed of several muscles following the same line, the longissiumus cervicis, capitis, thoracis, lumborum etc. The fasciles of the longissimus system are inserted in oblique down and forward from the dorsal spines to the articular processes on the vertebrae. The fascicle bridge approximately 3 to 5 vertebrae. The fascicles of the Multifidius muscles are oriented in the opposite direction, oblique, down and back covering about 3 vertebrae all along the thoracolumbar spine. During locomotion, there are many circumstances where the fascicles of the thoracic region contract differently than the fascicles of the lumbar region.
Every time that we publish an educated discussion about lowering of the neck we came under nasty attacks of uneducated riders and trainers who want to believe in their stretching theories. Truly, this does not change the real horse’s anatomy. We are willing to explain a little further if you want to know more about the horse’s functional anatomy as advanced research study explain it today. Anyone interested to understand how neck alignment affects or helps the horse is welcome. We have created a course which provides advanced understanding of equine functional anatomy and how to apply new knowledge. Instead, if you think about lowering of the neck as a cult that should not be question and therefore are going to argue base on a horse’s anatomy that does not exist, we are not going to respond because we will not be talking about the same creature. We will simply push the delete button.

Jean Luc"

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/equine_anatomy_verses_equine_anatomy.html

 

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I don't know, may be because my mare is a Dutch harness horse and only 16hh she wouldn't properly qualify as a big warmblood, but she definitely has the star gazing leg mover tendency. I find that with her as with our 2 PREs, the answer to get more engagement is generally lateral work. Perhaps because I am from the French school, but shoulder-in is definitely part of the warm up every time .
My opinion on tightening the reins when the horse curls in is that it's gonna work but only by making the horse hard mouthed.

I should add I have very very modest competition experience and am not a great rider, but I do pride myself in having turned a hollow backed stresshead into a soft engaged little mare who likes to school. It's all about doing suppling exercises and working in a nice rythm where the horse settles naturally, going for relaxed and correct over flashy.

It's a great feeling to turn a horse around...well done

Most of my posts will confirm that I am of the opinion that you can't ever expect one horse to be like another. There are bog moving warmbloods and small moving ones. Tightly wound Iberians and perfectly relaxed ones. That comment was aimed more at the assumption that what works for one will work for another and that is imo a closed view that will not do the horse any good if that method isn't a method that suits.

 

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"Equine Anatomy verses Equine Anatomy

There are two types of horse’s anatomy, the one supporting the thought that lowering of the neck stretches upper neck and back muscles and the real horse’s anatomy which contradict such beliefs. Even if they theoretically refer to the same horse, the two anatomies are totally different. One of the strong arguments of long and low proponents is that elongating the head, reaching with his nose forward increases the stretching of the upper neck muscles. The expression commonly use is “stretching through the bit.” The problem with the claim is that the muscles that move the head are not the muscles that lower the neck. There are 21 pairs of muscles moving the head, including reaching the nose forward. They do not elongate at all the upper neck muscles. In fact, reaching with the nose forward shortens the upper element of one of the upper neck muscles.

The two main muscles involved in the lowering of the neck are the splenius and the semispinalis capitis. The splenius is not even inserted on the skull. The muscle is inserted laterally on the nuchal crest. Beside its main function, that is resisting the lowering of the neck, the lateral insertion of the splenius on the upper end of the nuchal crest allows the muscle to bend the head and neck laterally. Instead, the muscle does not elongate at all when the horse nose reaches forward. The other main upper neck muscle, which is the semispinalis capitis, does have its upper element that is inserted on the upper crest of the skull. However, in order to move the horse’s nose forward, the upper compartment of the semispinalis capitis has to pull the skull back and therefore the muscle does not elongate but at the contrary shortens in concentric contraction. I am talking about compartment because the semispinalis capitis is built in numerous compartments. The muscle does have an internal tendon and there are 6 elements situated below the central tendon and 7 compartments situated above. Such architecture is convenient for the horse as it permits numerous variations of movements such as lateral bending, rotations, etc. By contrast, the construction contradicts the stretching theories which think that the muscle elongates as a whole. Due to its architecture of compartments, the compartments situate at the base of the muscle can have a totally different action than the compartments situated at the top.

Most of the stretching theories believe that the lower neck muscles, which are the muscles situated below the cervical vertebrae pull the head and neck down stretching the upper neck muscles. The reality is totally different. The lowering of the neck is not created by the lower neck muscles because they don’t have the power to elongate the upper neck. Instead, the lowering of the neck is created by gravity. The horse’s head and neck weight about 10% of the horse’s body mass and gravity is pulling the neck and head down. The upper neck muscles resist the attraction of gravity and therefore allow some lowering resisting attraction of gravity. Some studies define the upper neck muscles’ resistance as isometric hold, which means that the muscle contract without elongating or shortening. Other studies refer to the muscular work as eccentric, which means that the muscles contract while elongating. Eccentric contraction is also called active stretch. This needs to be soundly interpreted. Active stretch or eccentric contraction is the most powerful type of muscular contraction. Such contraction can be between 15 to 50 times stronger than concentric.

The term relax is often used in the stretching theories. Whatever the neck position, the splenius stiffens as the front hoof impacts in order to resist the acceleration of gravity created by the impact forces. This stiffening that occurs twice per stride is part of the locomotor mechanism at the walk, the trot and the canter. If the neck was relaxed, the head and neck would drop at each impact.
The main argument of the stretching proponents is that the horse “stretches” naturally lowering the neck after work. There is a strong ligament named nuchal ligament that connect the cranial thoracic vertebrae and the skull. The nuchal ligament is not under tension when the neck is up into an alert position. The ligament comes under tension when the neck is lowered into a more horizontal position. The purpose of the nuchal ligament is reducing the work of the upper neck muscles. At the walk, the nuchal ligament eases the work of the upper neck muscles by 55%. At the trot and canter, the nuchal ligament eases the work of the upper neck muscles by 32 to 36%. The horse does not stretch the neck, he simply eases the work of the upper neck muscles placing the neck into a more horizontal position and therefore using the passive resistance of the nuchal ligament.

Proponents of the long and low theory make statements but rarely explain how it works. When they do, they invent a horse anatomy that fit their beliefs. Recently was published a perfect example of “convenient” anatomy. The type of anatomy that fit the belief but is not even vaguely related to the way the horse physique is effectively built and functions. “Since the neck is attached to the withers and the withers to the large muscles over the top of the back, the stretch can reach far back toward the hips.” This is plain false. The two main back muscles are the longissimus dorsi, which is in fact composed of several muscles following the same line, the longissiumus cervicis, capitis, thoracis, lumborum etc. The fasciles of the longissimus system are inserted in oblique down and forward from the dorsal spines to the articular processes on the vertebrae. The fascicle bridge approximately 3 to 5 vertebrae. The fascicles of the Multifidius muscles are oriented in the opposite direction, oblique, down and back covering about 3 vertebrae all along the thoracolumbar spine. During locomotion, there are many circumstances where the fascicles of the thoracic region contract differently than the fascicles of the lumbar region.
Every time that we publish an educated discussion about lowering of the neck we came under nasty attacks of uneducated riders and trainers who want to believe in their stretching theories. Truly, this does not change the real horse’s anatomy. We are willing to explain a little further if you want to know more about the horse’s functional anatomy as advanced research study explain it today. Anyone interested to understand how neck alignment affects or helps the horse is welcome. We have created a course which provides advanced understanding of equine functional anatomy and how to apply new knowledge. Instead, if you think about lowering of the neck as a cult that should not be question and therefore are going to argue base on a horse’s anatomy that does not exist, we are not going to respond because we will not be talking about the same creature. We will simply push the delete button.

Jean Luc"

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/equine_anatomy_verses_equine_anatomy.html

Thank you DorianGrey,

That is so interesting to read. Would be interesting to know more about how the author does or doesn't stretch horses.

Me personally, as said a few times in just this thread already think if you just listen to the horse enough, he will tell you where he is most relaxed and comfortable.

 

[teabiscuit]

.

It's all about doing suppling exercises and working in a nice rythm where the horse settles naturally, going for relaxed and correct over flashy.

This