No winter turnout how does everyone survive??

[ester]

I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .

People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . .

We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.

These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.

Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.

But MP has said that she is a DIY person, with two, and works so not a lady that lunches so how can you say no DIY person will put up with it when the evidence is here for you to see?

Why on earth were you only able to hand walk in the arena not ride? You say it was the only option, I cannot see how or why?

 

[Goldenstar]

I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .

People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . .

We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.

These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.

Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.

It's irrelevant that you had no choice in the matter if you think stabling without turn out is cruel it's cruel it does not matter that you had no choice .

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems.

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will.

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.

 

[Ben2684]

I am lucky especially as I have two horses on DIY; one out 24/7 (due to health reasons) and one in 12 hours/out 12 hours (give or take an hour or two). I was always 100% against no turn out but at the moment the horse that comes in is sluggish to turn out and very keen on coming in. They have plenty of hay for the two of them in the field but come 4:30 the stables horse is wanting to come in (I presume for his dinner) our DIY yard is a little overstocked but we all manage our own fields independently and thankfully my two are pretty sensible. We had six solid days of rain a couple of weeks back and for a few of those days bring in time was rolled back to 2:30/3pm. I dont think I would be happy about continuous lock down but would consider the odd day or two for really bad weather. My stable is a foaling box really so this does help the matter. I think I'd is managed well and the horse is allowed to adapt it could lessen the negative impact. Each to their own, if it works for you and your horse and is the only option who am I to judge??

 

[popsdosh]

I didn't read it as bizarre as it resonated with my experience. You have a stable yard with your house, you are going to keep your own horses in it regardless but have capacity to add more = money you wouldn't get otherwise and no extra input apart from to the tax man etc as you will be maintaining the fields/arena etc yourself.
There is no way my previous YOer would have been doing it if it weren't worth their while (they had 3, 7 liveries) as they were they were very frugal (that is the nice way of putting it), despite being very well off.

The poster was suggesting that people only do it because they keep their horses for nothing.

 

[ester]

Well yes, they are effectively keeping their horse's for nothing if the income from liveries covers the feed/hay/bedding and upkeep of the land etc.
If they don't have liveries that money has to come from a different income.

By it being 'worth their while' keeping 3 horses for free would probably suffice, is it really any different to cash in your pocket if it just isn't cash leaving your pocket?

 

[popsdosh]

I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems.

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will.

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.

Sometimes money isnt everything even if charging 4 x the land is still messed up.

Example people used to come here in the winter because we allowed turnout paddocks get trashed in spring they all move back to cheaper yards that have no damage leaving you with no liveries and messed up fields that cost a fortune to put right.

 

[meleeka]

Mine are actually in through choice. I could turn them out in the usual mud-pit of a field that most yards offer, but they'd only want to come in and be hanging round the gate a few hours later. As I'd then spend a lot of time trekking down to the field to wade through the bog by the gate that none of the horses want to walk through, grooming caked on mud off, hosing wet mud off, breathing in all the dust, and (if there was any time left to ride after all that faffing) dealing with the inevitable muddy tack afterwards, where there was eg wet mud on the face that couldn't be cleaned off, I choose to keep them in. This is so I can get on with enjoying the time I spend with my horses, my 2 favourite things being grooming relatively clean horses and riding. It saves me time on house work too because of not having to get changed several times a day where handling muddy rugs and horses has left me filthy. Basically I keep them in full time in winter because it's ultimately quicker and easier for me with less risk of injury to myself or them. It doesn't bother me that they don't have the perfect life, most people don't have the perfect life either. My experience is that just like most people, most horses are also happy enough with their lot, even if they are frustrated some of the time at not being able to do what they want.

.

Perhaps you'd be better off with a rocking horse?

 

[horsefeed]

So if yards aren't here for the good of society why are they so cheap?

And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?

I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!

Having run a yard, I can honestly say its impossible to keep everyone happy all the time, without exceptionally facilities and lots of time to offer part/full livery and then people who pay full livery usually expect the top facilities as well, that unfortunately leads you down the route of cheaper grass/DIY livery options and in this scenario I would rather have 20 pay £20 a week than 10 paying £40, if 1 person with 2 horses doesn't pay (and most YM in cheaper yards experience, I am skint this week will pay you twice next week, only to get a week and 1/2s worth the 2nd week!) it has far less damage to you cash flow. Cash flow in smaller cheaper yards is/can be a big issue!

That said I had 11 horses on less than 5 acres, I had a sacrifice paddock that was horrendously churned up but good for the youngsters wanting to blow of steam and 2 gravel yard areas. Some horses where yarded 24/7, some had turnout field/yard at least for few hours everyday.

 

[horsefeed]

I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems.

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will.

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.

I ran a yard for a number of years and when I offered to rent additional land so they could have turnout, every single livery complained their rent would go up (was only £25 a month!!) to the extent they threatened to leave if I did! I then refused additional land and a month later the same liveries were complaining about limited grazing! When running a yard you just can't keep everyone happy!

 

[paddi22]

Perhaps you'd be better off with a rocking horse?

Agree with this.

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud?

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you. Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?

 

[paddi22]

Would anyone here like to leave in a 6ft x 6ft room all day, just being able to look out the window? How is it different for horses?

 

[wingedhorse]

Agree with this.

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud?

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you. Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?

I think it's a deliberately provocative post?

I can relate to horses not wanting to be turned out in deep, shoe sucking, horse injuring, grim mud. And have had times when mine really don't want to be out in field very long. I've had the odd day (when on wet clay) when horses preferred to stay in.

But never for my convenience. Not with a horse that is meant to be moving.

There are ways round mud other than grooming - snuggy hood turnouts, oiling legs, rugs with neck covers etc.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Sometimes money isnt everything even if charging 4 x the land is still messed up.

Example people used to come here in the winter because we allowed turnout paddocks get trashed in spring they all move back to cheaper yards that have no damage leaving you with no liveries and messed up fields that cost a fortune to put right.

Yes I can see that would not always solve the problem but it was cited as an issue earlier in the thread.

Maybe it also depends on what else is locally available I know that my yard would have to significantly raise the livery to drive anyone away as it's location and facilities are very good as is the grazing on the whole. A couple of people might struggle but any spaces would soon be filled. People just don't tend to leave though.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I ran a yard for a number of years and when I offered to rent additional land so they could have turnout, every single livery complained their rent would go up (was only £25 a month!!) to the extent they threatened to leave if I did! I then refused additional land and a month later the same liveries were complaining about limited grazing! When running a yard you just can't keep everyone happy!

Some people are never satisfied I agree. People always moan though doesn't mean they'll follow through. Maybe then you'd have got some appreciative liveries in instead? Again local conditions and competition affect what can realistically be charged.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

What a bizarre statement that shows a real lack of thought!! Most livery yard owners I know are actually missing out because they have their own horses ! Why have your own non paying horse taking up space that should be bringing in income?

A lot that I've met aren't doing it for an income, they just want their own horses for free, which they achieve by having liveries to pay the rent for the yard.

 

[Goldenstar]

A lot that I've met aren't doing it for an income, they just want their own horses for free, which they achieve by having liveries to pay the rent for the yard.

So what ?
Why should people not do this ?
One of the only reasons I can think of for having to share your yard with strangers demanding this and that falling out with each other etc etc is having a nice place to keep your horse that's not costing you a fortune .
I have to say the three livery owners I know best don't do this .

 

[ester]

I don't think S+S suggested that was a problem, just as a perhaps why costs are not what they should be to run a true/proper going concern.

I too wonder re. the renting extra grazing for increased bills type thing and others whether if it were insisted upon those that said they would leave do, and if they did whether they would be easily replaced by liveries who could see the benefit of having extra grazing.

 

[ycbm]

Would anyone here like to leave in a 6ft x 6ft room all day, just being able to look out the window? How is it different for horses?

The last time I looked my horses were neither reading nor writing War and Peace. I don't think you can compare what a horse will happily tolerate with what a human will.

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Just ro clarify . .we were walking our horses in hand in the indoor school whilst on lockdown . . At 4.30am in the morning . .monday to Friday for 13 weeks . .because, more than 4 people could walk and stretch their horses legs, then feed breakfast while mucking out . And make it to work , for those of us that have long drives to the office.Then, those (like my self) that hired an outside groom, used this person to turn the horses out in pairs at lunch time . .whilst the stable was,skipped out, water hay topped up. Our horses at least got 'parole' for a while from their prison.

In the evenings it was a made fight to get in the indoor school to again exercise, stretch legs and repeat the morning or mucking out, fed hay etc.

It was 13 weeks of hell. Stress. And worry that horses were stuck, bored, and stressed from being contained in an unnatural environment.

So to be paying to be in a situation of not having turn out . I repeat . .bonkers . .its different if needs must due to weather. . .but crazy and greedy of YO's if they put animals,in this situation on purpose. Cruel.

 

[ester]

It doesn't really clarify though, there is no reason why more than 4 people couldn't work their horses properly unless your school is particularly small?

For the yards that I know that do it well I don't recognise the situation you are describing at all, and it must make milliepops some sort of superwoman?!

 

[cobgoblin]

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud?

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you. Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?

I agree with this...horses are not meant to be kept in a 12x12 box.
I brought mine in for the night when it was sleeting... Stupidly thinking they would prefer it. Their disgust was apparent the next day, I definitely got the cold shoulder. We are on heavy clay, we have mud, we are on top of a hill and the wind can cut through you.... But they would much rather be out and together.
Coming in for a few hours during the day for a snooze seems to be much preferred to hours of incarceration.

 

[popsdosh]

Just ro clarify . .we were walking our horses in hand in the indoor school whilst on lockdown . . At 4.30am in the morning . .monday to Friday for 13 weeks . .because, more than 4 people could walk and stretch their horses legs, then feed breakfast while mucking out . And make it to work , for those of us that have long drives to the office.Then, those (like my self) that hired an outside groom, used this person to turn the horses out in pairs at lunch time . .whilst the stable was,skipped out, water hay topped up. Our horses at least got 'parole' for a while from their prison.

In the evenings it was a made fight to get in the indoor school to again exercise, stretch legs and repeat the morning or mucking out, fed hay etc.

It was 13 weeks of hell. Stress. And worry that horses were stuck, bored, and stressed from being contained in an unnatural environment.

So to be paying to be in a situation of not having turn out . I repeat . .bonkers . .its different if needs must due to weather. . .but crazy and greedy of YO's if they put animals,in this situation on purpose. Cruel.

Surely you have a free choice why not exercise it. YOs make the rules you dont have to agree . many horses cope very well with no turnout at all a good example being army horses in London. Are you sure you are not mixing up turnout with their need for exercise and what suits your lifestyle.

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

OMG, are you for real? . .

Could the 35 DIY people all be in an indoor school with a mix or competition bred animals, ponies, mares, oldies . .all walking around together, and all owners making it to work on time!.

I'm glad I was on a yard with sensible caring owners, where we agreed slots to get put horses through the 13 weeks of lock down.

I was trying to explain, when put in a situation of HAVING to keep your animal in (die to that bad year of weather), to read a thread that people are forced to keep their animals in for x months . . I feel this is cruelty to the animal and owner! . . .

And yes, some people left the yard for those 13 weeks of hell. Done put a plan together to prep for another year by renting local small paddocks . .some that had the land, took the horses hone . .yet some like me, went above and beyond to keep the animals brain ticking over by hired help, while earning my living to pay bills etc.

 

[nikkimariet]

Horses aren't meant to be ridden or kept as pets, they all adapt to what we want in some respect?...

OP, I think your horse will be fine.

 

[thatsmygirl]

I have all year turnout, I have my field and can do as I please with it, every summer it comes back with no issues. Mine are out 24/7 for about 10 months but do come in over night in Jan/Feb normally.
I personally couldn't stable them all winter, it's not fair on any horse in my mind. Even the horses stabled over night show signs off stress, the ones in the fields are chilled and seem so relaxed.
Personally I would look for somewhere else but that's just my view on my beliefs

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Agree with this.

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud?

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you. Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?

No, I wouldn't be better off with a rocking horse, that's ridiculous. You and meleeka might prefer that I didn't own horses, but I only care about whether my horses and myself are happy, not whether other people are happy with my decisions.

Yes mine are happy. They'd be happier if they got to go out into a decent field each day, but they don't actually want to be out in the sea of mud after the first 1/2hr, where socialising consists of various other hungry grumpy horses who get left out from 8am to 6pm whilst their owners work, chasing them and biting them, and all the bickering round the gate and threats to kick because the boss horse wants to come in before mine etc. They're definitely not miserable and actually object to being turned out 24/7 in summer, preferring to come in either during the day or at night (they don't seem bothered which it is).

They do have quite a lot of quality of life and aren't suffering becuse of my choice to keep them out of the mud. Do I think it's fair? Yes totally. I don't pay several thousand pounds a year to work my fingers to the bone without getting any fun out of the situation. They don't pay for their own keep, I do. It's not unfair of me to make some decisions for my own wellbeing and expect them to put up with it. As I said, they're not suffering.

 

[ester]

JJF OMG yes (I felt I was lacking OMGs) I am not a bot.

that yard sounds like a complete nightmare, where must you be to have had 13 weeks of unseasonably bad weather? You seem very martyrish about the whole situation and don't seem to realise that not all yards with no winter turnout - which essentially is what your situation was if it were 13 weeks function- cope quite so badly as yours seemed to.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

So what ?
Why should people not do this ?
One of the only reasons I can think of for having to share your yard with strangers demanding this and that falling out with each other etc etc is having a nice place to keep your horse that's not costing you a fortune .
I have to say the three livery owners I know best don't do this .

I never said people shouldn't do this. I have no problem with it. I just said I think it's a reason why some YOs don't want to put their prices up, because they're afraid (rightly or wrongly) that their liveries might leave and they won't be able to make ends meet.

I was responding to the person who asked why YOs don't put their prices up, with my ideas about why some don't - ie they don't want to take the risk of possibly having to drastically alter their lives if putting the prices up doesn't work out for them. Someone else then said that YOs with their own horses are losing income because those stables could be filled with fee paying customers, which is true, they could. But if a YOs main reason for having the yard in the first place is to keep their own horses for free, not having to pay livery/feed/bedding/hay costs themselves, then how does filling every one of their vacancies with customers horses help them? It doesn't, because it leaves no room for their own.

FWIW I do think that any yard thinking of closing because they're not making enough money from it should just put their prices up and see what happens. I do think there are a lot of people out there whose first criteria isn't how cheap the yard is, but what the facilities/services/setup is like. I moved mine from a cheap as chips yard 2miles from home to one that charged double and was 15miles away, because I thought the yard would better suit my horses, one of whom wasn't happy on the first yard. A friend of mine moved her horse 20 miles away to find a suitable yard, then moved house to make the yard more easy to access. I don't necessarily think YOs are right to be afraid of putting prices up, I can just understand why some might be.

 

[Tyssandi]

Hi, I have just moved onto a livery yard that does not allow winter turnout and am finding it difficult for my horse and myself adjusting. Any suggestions to make life easier for us both would be greatly appreciated. (BTW I had no choice but to move to the yard as we lost our grazing and this was only yard with spaces.)

why is it restricted I wonder???

too many horses? bad drainage?

There is a yard near us that will not allow horses out if icy or snowy or muddy and the horses stay in up to 2 weeks. Another allowed mares in am and geldings in the pm so horses paid for part livery are in the box most of the time, One livery came here as she was fed up with this routine.

Personally unless you are on clay or bad drainage, one of my pet hates is not being allowed to turn your horses out, very poor excuse if the Y/O is not managing the land so this is restricted.

We have NEVER restricted grazing (unless lami) and never will. Horses need to be out and mooching, and not cooped up for hours and hours eating and not moving

We have more horses to land but they are part and diy so no 24 hr grazing so the land copes.


This is poor management IMB