Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
But as OP said she lost her grazing suddenly the yard she's on was the only place with space so she has to manage the issue until she can get to some where better .
No winter turnout how does everyone survive??
- Thread starter polly123
- Start date
But as OP said she lost her grazing suddenly the yard she's on was the only place with space so she has to manage the issue until she can get to some where better .
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Yup I think you're probably right there... and if we ever get to that point, that's when I'll have to give it up.
If they are full regardless of whether they can offer turnout or not, then I'd say the yards don't *need* to do anything as people are still keeping their horses there. Do you not see what I'm getting at? It's all very well getting irate about it, but that doesn't change anything.
It's great that you can move to different places, other people might not have the choice, freedom or finances to be able to do that but that doesn't automatically mean that they aren't attending to their horses needs.
FWIW I don't consider hand walking around an indoor school to have much value tbh, I still think it sounds like you'd have had better use of the space and time available by doing ridden exercise, it's possible to have several horses trotting or cantering around each other quite safely and that way they can really work off some energy :wink3:
.... but we're all different! you make your choices and leave other people to make theirs
paddi22
Well-Known Member
there was an article recently that said if you replace stable with 'cage' then it makes people reconsider what restricted turnout means. If someone came on here and said they had a dog kept in a crate for 23 hours, but they let it out to run around their sitting room for an hour a day, there would be murder.
I've been an yards with very restricted turnout and i've moved to one much further away and at a higher cost because its important for horses to get out. If it was a scenario where turnout wasn't an option then, much as it would kill me, i don't think i would own a horse if that was my only option.
I've been an yards with very restricted turnout and i've moved to one much further away and at a higher cost because its important for horses to get out. If it was a scenario where turnout wasn't an option then, much as it would kill me, i don't think i would own a horse if that was my only option.
Damnation
Well-Known Member
They do - it's called restricted turnout or no turnout.
Land is expensive, the market dictates that people won't pay the money for YO'ers to be able to even cover maintenence let alone adapt grazing to drain better so they get more horses in just to pay the bills.
When people say "oh just move". Move to where? I live in an area where land is rarely up for sale/rent. Farmers hate horses, they won't rent to you if they know it is for horses. They see horses as dead money and a nuisance that just churn up fields and spread weeds - more hassle than they are worth.
To make things worse, yards are few and far between ranging from a huge Equestrian Centre with restricted turnout and nearly an hours drive from my house to another yard with individual turnout, restricted winter turnout and no summer 24/7 turnout (have to come in at night all year and at that they are lucky to be out til 2-3pm), to the 3rd big yard which only does full livery.
I found my little yard through sheer luck which suits me perfectly.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
That's obvious surely? They'd rather have 20 livery payments per week than 10... Why wouldn't a YO do this?
It's good business sense and that's what they're running - a business - not a public service for the welfare of peoples horses. If all the yards in the area are full so the OP goes to the only one with spaces, which happens to have no winter turnout, what does that tell you? That people will accept it. From a business point of view if people will accept something and it's bringing in the money then why change it. I just don't understand why people are so surprised that yards are the way they are.
I read threads like this and think some people live in a parallel universe. I've never met a single person who thinks their life is set up well for a pet so lets get one, just to provide it with a good home. People get pets including horses for their own reasons, then keep the animal to the best of their ability using whatever facilities are available. There's this fluffy notion (in the UK at least) that animals are equal to people, but they're not, it's that simple. They're sort of slaves really. And if one species is selfish enough to keep another species as a slave for their own purposes (companionship, hobby, sport) in the first place, why is it so surprising to some that there are people who put their own needs/wants before that of their pets and decide to keep one, even though they can't provide anywhere near the perfect lifestyle for it?
Maybe someone in government should define in law the perfect lifestyle for each animal species and if someone can't meet that, they're not allowed to keep it as a pet. All the unwanted animals could be culled then. So apart from farming there would be hardly any animals, because most people wouldn't be rich enough to provide animals with the perfect lifestyles, which would probably include employing staff to look after them whilst they were at work or owning fairly large amounts of land. It would solve a lot of welfare problems and the animals wouldn't care, they'd be dead. It's only us humans that would care because we wouldn't have our pets any more. But I don't expect anybody really likes that as a solution, including me.
To answer the OP's question, I survive winter with no turnout by not overfeeding and feeding only forage, ensuring my horses have at least the minimum amount of work they need to stay sane, and having a system for the stable chores that means I never walk anywhere empty handed to cut down on the time it all takes. A yard close to home with an indoor stables and indoor arena is quite high on my list of must haves too. It makes all the difference to not be soaking wet and freezing cold every day, and the closer the yard is the easier it is to make multiple visits daily without it taking up half the day.
Mine are actually in through choice. I could turn them out in the usual mud-pit of a field that most yards offer, but they'd only want to come in and be hanging round the gate a few hours later. As I'd then spend a lot of time trekking down to the field to wade through the bog by the gate that none of the horses want to walk through, grooming caked on mud off, hosing wet mud off, breathing in all the dust, and (if there was any time left to ride after all that faffing) dealing with the inevitable muddy tack afterwards, where there was eg wet mud on the face that couldn't be cleaned off, I choose to keep them in. This is so I can get on with enjoying the time I spend with my horses, my 2 favourite things being grooming relatively clean horses and riding. It saves me time on house work too because of not having to get changed several times a day where handling muddy rugs and horses has left me filthy. Basically I keep them in full time in winter because it's ultimately quicker and easier for me with less risk of injury to myself or them. It doesn't bother me that they don't have the perfect life, most people don't have the perfect life either. My experience is that just like most people, most horses are also happy enough with their lot, even if they are frustrated some of the time at not being able to do what they want.
I think most of the people saying they don't have a bog for a field in winter are people who have their own land. In my area the land is very wet and I don't know of any livery yards at all which have decent fields in winter. If I win the Lotto, I'm going to have a large field with good drainage installed, a big barn for when they need to stay in and staff to do all the land/barn maintenance.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Lol I was thinking about this just the other day. TBH though I'm not sure there'd be a huge amount of farmed animals either in this utopia - lots of them are kept indoors esp at this time of year for one reason or another...
Thankfully for those of us with less than perfect lifestyles I think the Govt is a bit busy right now so our horses will escape the cull for now :wink3:
DD
Well-Known Member
relevant and interesting thread. what it all amounts to is not enough land for the number of horses on it .I'm not saying out 24/7 is the best it sometimes isn't in driving rain and wind and mud horses need shelter and somewhere dry. that can be a barn or a stable with suitable bedding. being stood in mud with their faces in a round bale all the time isn't good they might as well be in the dry warm stable. I think we should all assess how we keep our horses and be realistic. if we cant afford to provide decent shelter and turnout of some kind and exercise then we should ask ourselves should we be keeping horses at all?
Charlie31
Well-Known Member
Quite often when there are these sorts of threads it all comes down to money and people not being prepared to pay the true cost of livery. But, and this is a genuine question, have livery yard owners ever discussed this with their liveries to see what they're actually prepared to pay? If so then fine but I do wonder if they just assume people won't pay and so keep their prices down out of fear of people protesting and leaving.
My yard is a typical large yard with too many horses in the fields. We are lucky in that we do get turnout in the winter unless it's really horrible (they were in quite a lot last winter), but as the number of horses on the yard has increased so has the amount of time we have to keep them in for, and the fields do get pretty trashed. I completely understand that there are large overheads associated with running a livery yard, and that the owners have crammed the horses in to make ends meet. However, I would quite cheerfully pay double what I do now if it meant more turnout on fields that were in better condition. I know there are several other people on my yard who feel the same.
Of course there would be those that would grumble and leave but then that would solve the problem of how to significantly reduce the number of horses on the yard! Those people could go elsewhere and pay lower prices for a crappy field and restricted turnout.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
My yard is a typical large yard with too many horses in the fields. We are lucky in that we do get turnout in the winter unless it's really horrible (they were in quite a lot last winter), but as the number of horses on the yard has increased so has the amount of time we have to keep them in for, and the fields do get pretty trashed. I completely understand that there are large overheads associated with running a livery yard, and that the owners have crammed the horses in to make ends meet. However, I would quite cheerfully pay double what I do now if it meant more turnout on fields that were in better condition. I know there are several other people on my yard who feel the same.
Of course there would be those that would grumble and leave but then that would solve the problem of how to significantly reduce the number of horses on the yard! Those people could go elsewhere and pay lower prices for a crappy field and restricted turnout.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
Asha
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with you.
When I was on livery I just didn't get the costs involved. Having my own place now, I can see that £25/week for DIY cannot be a viable option for a business to make a sustainable return. Unless, they compromise on something.
No idea what the answer is.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
So if yards aren't here for the good of society why are they so cheap?
And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?
I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!
And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?
I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Personally... I wouldn't pay double what I pay now. for me, what makes DIY work is having 2 horses, I keep 2 on the same routine so they always have company- I never have the problem of being the last horse left out etc and they are settled & happy together. If I had to pay twice the livery then I wouldn't be a livery client I'm afraid. I've always kept my horses on a shoestring, always been overstretched and I know it only works because there are cheap options out there. I can spare the time in my private life to cope with the shortcomings.
That said.... I do think my YO must be turning a profit, because it's not her land and the horses have to pay to make the yard worth running. There are continuous little improvements being made and the upkeep is good. I know she raised the prices a few years ago, she's not backward about coming forward and the whole set up is businesslike, I do feel that they would come forward if it was a black hole and say that things needed to change.
That said.... I do think my YO must be turning a profit, because it's not her land and the horses have to pay to make the yard worth running. There are continuous little improvements being made and the upkeep is good. I know she raised the prices a few years ago, she's not backward about coming forward and the whole set up is businesslike, I do feel that they would come forward if it was a black hole and say that things needed to change.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I know that not everyone would but I am wondering where the slight 'stack it high sell it cheap' culture has come from and why we keep being told that it is impossible to make a DIY livery pay because if the yard down the road with exactly the same set up charged less and made no money it would go bust which would leave everyone paying more again.
tristar
Well-Known Member
i was on a yard with no turn out when between buying houses, and i thought it was the worst thing ever i have known with horses.
to go to hell and back to get your own place was the only way out,
my horses go out 8 - 6 minimum everyday. excepting heavy rain or snow, i have made large yards of hard hard standing to use when ground is wet, and it is worth every penny.
we know horses need to move constantly for their health, and roll, and the difference in a horse`s work that goes out every day is amazing.
you need to aim high to get there.
to go to hell and back to get your own place was the only way out,
my horses go out 8 - 6 minimum everyday. excepting heavy rain or snow, i have made large yards of hard hard standing to use when ground is wet, and it is worth every penny.
we know horses need to move constantly for their health, and roll, and the difference in a horse`s work that goes out every day is amazing.
you need to aim high to get there.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I cannot imagine owning a horse on DIY/assisted/part livery if there was no winter turnout. I'm afraid I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice other aspects of my life in order to meet the needs of a horse stabled 24/7.
That said, in a professional set up with good facilities, I can understand that in a way 24/7 in is almost better than the odd hour here and there out. The expectations are set for the horse and they get used to their routine. Provided that supplies sufficient time out of their stables exercising then I can live with that.
I'm seeing signs of declining turnout, declining livery options. I'm also planning a natural decline in my own equine numbers to the point when I only have one - and a big part of that is down to not wanting to compromise on how I keep them.
That said, in a professional set up with good facilities, I can understand that in a way 24/7 in is almost better than the odd hour here and there out. The expectations are set for the horse and they get used to their routine. Provided that supplies sufficient time out of their stables exercising then I can live with that.
I'm seeing signs of declining turnout, declining livery options. I'm also planning a natural decline in my own equine numbers to the point when I only have one - and a big part of that is down to not wanting to compromise on how I keep them.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
Can someone explain to me why livery yards are allowed to have more stables ( and horses) than the land can support all year round?....but...if you apply for stables on your own property, you are restricted in the number of stables by the land area and most planning offices are very strict in this.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
I actually don't think people are *better* than animals, but we do rule the planet, so we're in charge and animals aren't equal to us in rights.
As for the rest, I agree with you. My theory is that most YOs aren't really business-minded people and have put very little thought into the whole process at all. Lots of the smaller yards are only doing it to subsidise the keep of their own horses, not to make a living. Maybe those ones think if they charge proper prices people will expect a more professional service? Maybe some of the bigger yards think that too and can't be bothered to provide it?
crabbymare
Well-Known Member
I am lucky that mine are at home and retired. not sure that I could go back to livery after this as I can keep them the way they I like and if its very wet I shut the field gate and they are able to mooch around the old hard standing and concrete area and go in a small ancient (but safe) barn for shelter bed and hay so they are not cooped up in stables. when they eventually go I will get my horsey fix by having another lease or loan broodmare abroad as where I would have them has 365/24/7 turnout and very good cctv so I can see the horse as often as I like and its as good as I can afford on a lot less than it would cost here. I think unless people are prepared to compromise they will need to double or more the cost of diy or basic stable and lost profit on part and full livery to find somewhere that allows winter turnout. if those who have horses on restricted turnout cannot get the horse out and worked properly then they need to either get a sharer or freelancer to ride the horse in daylight. there is always going to be compromise and no yard will be perfect for everyone but as long as people do their best and make sure their horse is not in the stable 23 hours a day the horses will adapt and be ok. its the people who spend the winter going up at night and think ooh its cold/wet/snowy/windy so horsey can have a 20 min walk round in hand and go back to its stable again and eat hay then cannot ride at weekends because for some reason horsey is off its head that are the problems.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I know lots of people running livery and they all pretty well say the same the market won't take DIY being over £50 a week round here .
It's simply not enough to run a Livery on the a proper buisiness footing most of the liverys I know are piggy backing on another buisness like a farm .
Charlie31
Well-Known Member
I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I am quite business minded and I get very frustrated because a lot of things seem really obvious to me and yet the yard continues to be run in a fairly chaotic fashion. Our yard owners are lovely people but they don't tend to think ahead at all and everything gets done in a rather reactive kind of way. Maybe you're right that it's actually easier for them to charge less and provide less of a service than to charge more and provide more. I know if I had a yard it would be bloody expensive but you would get really good service in return. Sadly I can't afford to buy a yard though.
In real terms though I do think livery prices have gone up substantially less than inflation over the last 15-20 years and I wonder what's driving that.
tristar
Well-Known Member
cobgoblin, i thought that it was eu rules that if keeping a horse at grass, ie it is dependent on grass for its main food you had to have 1 acre
however on a livery yard with stables the same does not apply as they are fed supplementary food while they are in.
however on a livery yard with stables the same does not apply as they are fed supplementary food while they are in.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I think we are nearing crunch time.
At what point will yards close because it's just not worth staying open for livery?
If there are alternative uses for land and buildings who could blame the yard owners?
Interestingly I've been in group email copy of a local yard that I had a horse on retired grazing on recently. It's an agricultural yard, nothing fancy about it, but has all year herd turnout, stabling, storage, floodlit school and a walker. Typical of many of the slightly run down DIY yards all over the country. It cost £35 a week for stable, facilities, hay & straw (of various quality!). Recently they tried to raise it to £45 and met with some backlash from liveries, I think it was eventually settled on £40 now and a further raise once some additional improvements made. The guy that runs it is a nice, laid back and fair guy. I did feel a bit sorry for him with the flack he got. I think he should have called their bluff - there is no where locally that could offer what he does at the price he does!
crabbymare
Well-Known Member
are the livery yards that do not have much grazing all registered? there is some eu rule about having enough land for the horses but I am not sure of the wording. however I did hear something about yards in germany needing to have a certain amount of grazing for the number of stables and horses they keep but am not sure what it is or if its eu law. country law or state law but now I am thinking about it will ask next time I chat to my friend over there. the problem in the uk will be that there are so many unlicensed livery yards that until the local councils have the spare funds and personnel to go round and check random properties at a time thats normally out of work hours (being the time most people would visit their horses) to prove that it is a livery yard and not just a private yard then any law for x amount of land per stable/horse is not going to be enforced and I do not think there will be sufficient people reporting unlicensed livery yards to the councils to make enough of a difference
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
My experience of it is that none of the smaller YOs I've known have applied for planning for new stables, they just put them up, live on site, own the land, and presumably figure someone else can sort out the resulting mess when they die. On the larger yards I've known, all the stables have been converted from buildings which were already there, so maybe that makes a difference with the planning, or maybe they also just did it and didn't inform the planning. Also if you apply for your own property is it different rules if you're saying it's for private use for your own horses versus if you admit you want to run a business from the property? Maybe if it's for private use they say you can only have a few stables so they think you'd be less likely to go running an unofficial business from the property without telling them?
ljohnsonsj
Well-Known Member
Mine haven't had winter turn out for years. It's unheard of in my area to be fair. They are getting to go out on a weekend on the yard I am at now and they will soon get to go out every other day once it dries up a bit but they always manage as long as they are out their stables for some time each day, they do seem quite happy and content with a big haynet
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
I share your frustration. The amount of yards I've left thinking "if only the YO actually *ran* and *maintained* the place, instead of just collecting money and having a few haphazardly enforced rules".
The prices I think is because the cost of everything, in real terms, has gone up. All except wages, which have stagnated a bit by comparison. People are feeling the pinch and for a lot of people, especially those who don't want to live on a shoe-string, when money gets tighter the horse is the first thing to go. Then there's those already living on a shoe-string, who are already compromising on clothes, heating and food and who have nothing else left to give up - they can't afford a sudden raise in livery fees without either reducing the number of horses they own, or giving up altogether. I think this is what fuels the YOs fear that they'd have no customers if prices went up dramatically.
Then there's the hassle of trying to raise prices. People who are very attached to their pets and see them as part of the family, or who have a family tradition of keeping pets for generations, do sometimes seem to see animal ownership as some sort of right and sometimes take it personally if something happens which means they can't afford to keep their pets. With an attitude of "what am I supposed to do?", as if them not being able to afford to have a pet is somebody/everybody else's problem.
A lot of YOs won't want to close their yards because their own horses stay there for free and if the yards closed all the costs would then fall to the YO with no money coming in at all to offset those costs. So they'd risk having to either work full time somewhere else for their income, which they might not want to do, or sell their own horses and give up renting/sell their big detached house and land and go live in a smaller property to make ends meet. Not an appealing prospect for many, I expect.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Back in my younger days there was not the number of yards around or the facilities ,if you couldnt afford to keep one you didnt have one . However nowadays a lot of liveries are of a mind that its their right! Even though we lost income initially when we closed the livery yard (35 horses) several years back we have never regretted it as we felt we had lost the ability to do things as we wanted . We found eventually we were a lot better off as other parts of the business could be done properly and increase output after being held back by the liveries always being in the way. There is only a certain number of phone calls on sunday nights you can cope with when somebody has forgotten to order hay that has run out!!!!
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
What a bizarre statement that shows a real lack of thought!! Most livery yard owners I know are actually missing out because they have their own horses ! Why have your own non paying horse taking up space that should be bringing in income?
caitlineloise
Well-Known Member
My mares in at the moment, and she's never been happier. Echoing others, it's all about routine and forage.
We have a walker and she goes on that in the morning and is ridden/lunged/back on walker in the afternoon/evening.
She's miserable if she's out and wants in anyway.
I'm lucky enough to have a 'day stable' and 'night stable' which certainly helps great deal in the management of it all.
But honestly, she's never been more settled in winter, and is 100% no different in her attitude when worked. The only day she's had the hump is when she was out on a rare nice morning!
We have a walker and she goes on that in the morning and is ridden/lunged/back on walker in the afternoon/evening.
She's miserable if she's out and wants in anyway.
I'm lucky enough to have a 'day stable' and 'night stable' which certainly helps great deal in the management of it all.
But honestly, she's never been more settled in winter, and is 100% no different in her attitude when worked. The only day she's had the hump is when she was out on a rare nice morning!
jumping.jack_flash
Well-Known Member
I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .
People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . .
We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.
These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.
Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.
People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . .
We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.
These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.
Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I didn't read it as bizarre as it resonated with my experience. You have a stable yard with your house, you are going to keep your own horses in it regardless but have capacity to add more = money you wouldn't get otherwise and no extra input apart from to the tax man etc as you will be maintaining the fields/arena etc yourself.
There is no way my previous YOer would have been doing it if it weren't worth their while (they had 3, 7 liveries) as they were they were very frugal (that is the nice way of putting it), despite being very well off.