Not sure where I now stand.

[endymion]

Let me clarify....

How many herds do you have a problem with? Is it just one herd which utillises your land, is this all year round and is 30 a good estimate of the average size of the herd at this time of year?

As for hunting pressure I mean how are they hunted and how intensively, e.g are they currently just shot? If so how often and is this seasonally for culling or all year round for sport?
Do u have any idea of how many are shot? I think you'll agree that it is important to have at least some info on births and deaths before you can come to a conclusion on how many need to be culled annually.

 

[endymion]

Woodlands were so vast that they had transitory grasslands and meadows in areas where trees had fallen due to storms ect. The grassland would exist until succession began. Woodlands are too small for this now. There were also coastal grassland.

Monocultures of grass are not really a good thing. Grass habitats should surely be diverse to encourage a diverse range of species?

Forest rides and clearings can provide good habitat if managed correctly.

Grazing is v important in maintaining grassland habitats but the balance has to be right. Often grazing pressure is too high in these days of mass production.

Giles, my point was not that agriculture is always bad for the environment but that very often it is. It has caused enormous destruction. Very few people farm (not always their own fault I know) in an environmentally friendly way.

 

[Hercules]

Endymong,

Who are you? Charles Darwin, Bill Oddie or John Craven?

 

[endymion]

Here comes Hercules with more intelligent and insightful comments, hehe!

When you have nothing of note to say why not revert to name calling, eh?

I love it, keep it coming........ :grin:

 

[Eagle_day]

Tom
I saw Ann Mallalieu recently quoted as saying the Exmoor red deer herd fell by 25% in the year after the ban. I hadn't seen this figure before but I can't say I'm surprised. Typical NuLab law of unintended consequences: invade Iraq to bring democracy to the oppressed and spark a bloody insurgency and civil war; ban hunting because we shouldn't enjoy it and cause the quarry populations to crash ...
ED

 

[endymion]

Why did it fall....?

 

[Shoveller]

Modern farming did do damage to a lot of animals, but why then was there always sufficient hare numbers to hold the Anglia Cup? (Is that what its called?!!). I assume its because as those landowners wanted to see the coursing they farmed in such a way as to benefit the hare. Now, what benefits hares also benefits buttlerflies, insects and lots of ground nesting birds.

There is in my opinion a huge myth surrounding hare numbers. They are in fact the only species that I can think of that benefits from modern prairie farming, as practiced in East Anglia. This is why eastern England has vast hare populations.

Yet, in the west of the country and in the Sussex Weald, where farming is much more unchanged and mixed in the way that we are always told wildlife likes, there are hardly any hares at all. The only places where there are lots of hares in these areas are where there are shooting estates and few predators as a result. Hares like factory farmed prairies, not woods, hedges, grass and small fields.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

There are more hares than you might think in the west country. Try beagling.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

If it did fall then most likely because more are being shot because land owners are starting to see them as just a pest rather than a quarry.

 

[Clodagh]

I understand that hares need a diversity of habitat to flourish. We have grown a lot of rape for the first time this year and we have no hares in it (that I can tell). However, the winter wheat has plenty. I believe that they need rotational type grazing, so in fact prairie type farming shouldn't be of benefit to them.
Can't quote anything at you, cos I can only speak from experience, not, like Endymion, from textbooks.

 

[endymion]

oooh, cheeky!

Yes I am quite studious sometimes but most of the people I learn from really know their stuff. I probably know more about the countryside in the NE of Scotland but I have a room in Essex I use for field work as and when req and I do spend rather a long time in the SE England countryside every Saturday remember!! :grin:

 

[Jerome]

I agree with you that you are "totally confused". Perhaps a few months' self-imposed abstinence from sites like this will help clear your befuddled mind?

 

[Fairynuff]

Jerome, if you have nothing constructive to say, bog off! I expect youll disapear back down the drain youve managed to find your way out of soon enough. Did they give you a map? Where do these irritating eedjits come from? M.

 

[severnmiles]

Jerome, if you have nothing constructive to say, bog off! I expect youll disapear back down the drain youve managed to find your way out of soon enough. Did they give you a map? Where do these irritating eedjits come from? M.

Hahahaha....go Mairi! :-D

 

[wurzel]

"How many herds do you have a problem with?"

I have a problem with the whole Exmoor Red deer herd if they eat my grass.

"Is it just one herd which utillises your land, is this all year round and is 30 a good estimate of the average size of the herd at this time of year?"

Some are particularly local but they do gradually move about. I don't know which individuals utilise my land.

I don't give them names !!!

Yes it is all year round and the numbers vary from day to day. Sometimes I see 30-40, sometimes I see 5.

I also have a sneaking suspision they sneak about at night !!!!!!!!!!!

"As for hunting pressure I mean how are they hunted and how intensively, e.g are they currently just shot?"

They are still hunted by the DSSH. But now we are starting to shoot them as well.

"If so how often and is this seasonally for culling or all year round for sport?"

Are you winding me up?

Both hunting and shooting is in season.

"Do u have any idea of how many are shot?"

None at all. Only those that are shot on my property. And maybe not all those !!

I suspect there are people sneaking about at night as well !!!!


"I think you'll agree that it is important to have at least some info on births and deaths before you can come to a conclusion on how many need to be culled annually."

No I don't agree. The hunt used to study this. Now the culling is down to each individual farmer.

They can kill none or 100 per year.

Up to the individual.

 

[wurzel]

You got it.

Don't know about 25% but it wouldn't surprise me. They will all be gone in 10 years.

 

[wurzel]

More are being shot and poached.

Masters are being thrown in urine and puke soaked cells when they attend police cells voluntarily.

No hunting = uncontrolled shooting.

 

[wurzel]

"Yes I am quite studious sometimes "

Is the bit about stag hunting sinking in?

 

[endymion]

I didnt ask for individuals, dont be silly Thomas!

Some areas only carry out shooting for culling purposes during a very short period.

I'm sure there must be someone surveying the deer. It's bloody Exmoor and it's the Trust! How can you agree with someone on the one hand that the population is falling and on the other say no-one even does an inventory?

No figures on pops ect then it's impossible to anything of note about the deer one way or the other. It's all guess work.

 

[endymion]

I was talking to Clodagh, it's rude to but in to other people's conversations.

 

[wurzel]

"I didnt ask for individuals, dont be silly Thomas!"

Sorry Endy !!!

"I'm sure there must be someone surveying the deer."

Sure all sorts of people do!

Whats your point? When it comes down to it I am only interested in the numbers on my farm.


"It's bloody Exmoor and it's the Trust!"

Come on student !! More than 78% of Exmoor is privately owned.

"How can you agree with someone on the one hand that the population is falling and on the other say no-one even does an inventory?"

Pardon? I said I am not surprised. i say this because I know individuals are shooting them. Individuals who used to rely on the hunt. I have never said no one counts the deer.

I don't.

All sorts of other bodies do. Including the hunt.

" No figures on pops ect then it's impossible to anything of note about the deer one way or the other. It's all guess work. "

There is between 2000 and 2500 deer on Exmoor. The number fluctuates.

Here is a quote from the national park....

"7.7 ‘Exmoor area has one of the largest herds of wild red deer in England. There is a strong association between the National Park and red deer, which is reflected in the use of this species as the logo of the National Park Authority. The wild red deer are an important part of the ecology of Exmoor and people’s enjoyment of the area is enhanced by seeing red deer. The maintenance of a healthy herd in balance with the environment is in keeping with the purposes of the National Park.

7.8 Management by people is essential to maintaining the herd, and traditionally a mixture of hunting and shooting has achieved this. The relationship between the deer, the hunt and those who manage the land is complex and the key to the continued success in maintaining the fine herd of red deer. Should legislation be introduced to ban hunting with hounds, it is essential that adequate arrangements are in place to ensure the continued conservation and management of the red deer herds on Exmoor. Measures will also have to be taken to address any adverse effects on the social and economic well-being of Exmoor’s rural community."


I am still not embarrassed Endy !!!

 

[wurzel]

Don't be so precious Endy !!

 

[endymion]

Thomas I will root around for more numbers. You must accept that numbers outside your land are going to affect numbers inside your land.

Much of Exmoor may be privately owned but I can't believe the trust doesnt take an interest in goings on in it's own back yard.

I believe the embarrased thing was from a different topic when we were discussing agriculture and how it has affected biodiversity. You seemed to think it hadn't. I'm still willing to prove you wrong if you insist.

 

[endymion]

I can't help it, it must be my gay side coming out, haha! I'm sure SBB would say so..

 

[wurzel]

"Thomas I will root around for more numbers."

Happy rooting !

"You must accept that numbers outside your land are going to affect numbers inside your land."

I accept that.


"Much of Exmoor may be privately owned but I can't believe the trust doesnt take an interest in goings on in it's own back yard."

Does this have any relevance? My farm is not the National Trusts back yard.

They are generally quite confused people.

Look at their recent behaviour over Stag hunting.


Do you think the National Trust want the Red deer wiped out?

Or are they relying on the surrounding farmers to feed the deer for them?

The trust and the national park seem somewhat at odds, don't you think?

"I believe the embarrased thing was from a different topic when we were discussing agriculture and how it has affected biodiversity. You seemed to think it hadn't. I'm still willing to prove you wrong if you insist."

Sure. prove me wrong. I don't see how my farm negatively effects biodiversity.


I am probably over twice your age Endy. My days of embarrassment are long past.

 

[wurzel]

So what do you think Endy?

Uncontrolled shooting OR controlled hunting and some shooting ?

 

[endymion]

Well, I'm not huge fan of the Trust and was unaware that you lived so far from their land.

I didn't say your farm negatively affected biodiversity (but to be really technical anything other than the natural ecosystem does), I said agriculture as a whole has had a huge adverse a effect on it.

 

[endymion]

Tom, why is there a need to chase the stag?

If it is selected to hunt why not shoot it then and there?

 

[wurzel]

"Well, I'm not huge fan of the Trust and was unaware that you lived so far from their land."

I am not far from the trust at all. My land abuts trust land.

They are my rather embarrassing back yard.

I don't know what they want. They want me to feed their deer I suppose.




If one jumps off Dunkery on to my hedge I will shoot it.


"I didn't say your farm negatively affected biodiversity "

Thanks. I know it is very diverse. As much as it can be at 1000 feet on the edge of the Atlantic.

With hunting I am even happy to support the largest wild Red deer herd in England.

I am a kind of conservation hero.

 

[endymion]

You are truly are an un-sung hero.

A wildlife martyr. :smirk: