Observation from dressage writing

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't want to go in to cliché but the reputation of German and Dutch riding is that it is heavy handed indeed. There are different ways of riding and usually the horses don't get asked what they prefer.
After watching dressage all last week at a championship, from grass roots to very good amateurs and pro, my take home is that the horses ridden on a strong contact seemed really stressed and like the front end didn't match the back end (although they lifted their legs higher and got better scores) and the horses ridden on a soft contact were more relaxed throughout with a flowing test but perhaps less precision.

I think that's a fairly accurate assessment though. It can be a bit crank and spank in this neck of the woods. It's just all so rigid too. Of course not everyone rides like this, but it's definitely a thing and a very hard habit to break for some.

However, they want to see neck low, consistent contact, and forward at the lower levels. At least from what I've observed in my area over the past year or so.

A consistent contact isn't a heavy contact as mentioned, but to some, it is.

 

[milliepops]

Did you need the vet to verify though? I thought that was required.

BD rulebook lists this under abuse of the horse, and indicates that a "second person" should be sought to discuss unless immediate action is needed, so that's possibly why iffy or "unlevel" horses finish their tests and the ones that are very obviously LAME get the bell rung.

 

[splashgirl45]

I have written for many judges at both unaffiliated and affiliated and they are very careful not to say horse is lame but say unlevel steps on most of the movements and mark them down accordingly.. if the horse is very lame the judge has stopped the test and told them..

 

[Rowreach]

By the time a horse has been warmed up enough to enter the arena, any stiffness should have dissipated, and if it hasn’t then the horse is lame/unsound/shouldn’t be doing a test in a constricted area.

 

[Cortez]

Did you need the vet to verify though? I thought that was required.

Yes, that’s why I said that…..

 

[Marigold4]

If you are going to ride with your arms by your side and your horse is not yet ready to collect and lift throught the front ( which is quite likely at Intro or Prelim), then you are going to end up with longer reins than someone riding a more advanced test on a more advanced horse?

 

[daffy44]

I teach a lot of lower level riders, and in my experience my these riders tend to ride with straighter arms, so they lock their arms and open their fingers, which results in a longer rein, whereas when a rider becomes more experienced they (hopefully!) have learnt to bend their elbows and allow their arms to follow the horses movement whilst keeping their fingers closed.

I think it can be difficult for judges, especially at lower levels to call out lameness, because if a horse takes a few unlevel steps on a turn it may well be a lame horse, but it may also be a sound horse made briefly unlevel by an unbalanced rider, so I think a judge wants to see a more blatant lameness before stopping a test.

 

[TPO]

Also what I've experienced with the people I've mentioned is that they don't understand the "cushioned" comments from the judge.

They seemed to translate notes of unlevel steps and inconsistent contact/on a circle etc as schooling issues rather than veterinary iykwim

 

[Orangehorse]

Everyone who does dressage should be a writer - gosh you see so much and think "I must do/not do That" and yes, it is very often hands/contact, plus looking down and not riding accurately.

As for lameness well it can be obvious or subtle. When my vet diagnosed my horse's hind lameness she said she sees worse at dressage shows regularly but that it is very hard for a rider to feel hind leg lameness. There is also the question of is it lame or is it stiff, or is the rider unbalanced and the horse isn't lame but just responding to the rider's position or is it mechanical lameness. A minefield.

Plus my physio said she was at a training day for experienced vets for diagnosing lameness and half didn't get it right one way or the other.

I think you are right that a dressage judge is not a vet and therefore could not say that the horse is lame - showing uneven steps is about as far as it will go unless hoping.

 

[Equi]

For me its more of a "he won't TAKE the space" yet. So i can either have washing lines hes not taking up, or contact that doesn't look like it lets him. That said im only intro and just barely lol. Hes not a dressage horse is our Hec.

 

[Zoeypxo]

When you say you saw unsound horses do you mean blatantly lame rider should not be riding this horse or slightly unlevel on a turn?
i am interested!

 

[Cortez]

Everyone who does dressage should be a writer - gosh you see so much and think "I must do/not do That" and yes, it is very often hands/contact, plus looking down and not riding accurately.

As for lameness well it can be obvious or subtle. When my vet diagnosed my horse's hind lameness she said she sees worse at dressage shows regularly but that it is very hard for a rider to feel hind leg lameness. There is also the question of is it lame or is it stiff, or is the rider unbalanced and the horse isn't lame but just responding to the rider's position or is it mechanical lameness. A minefield.

Plus my physio said she was at a training day for experienced vets for diagnosing lameness and half didn't get it right one way or the other.

I think you are right that a dressage judge is not a vet and therefore could not say that the horse is lame - showing uneven steps is about as far as it will go unless hoping.

It is actually part of a dressage judges remit to stop a lame horse from continuing. There are vets on call to back up (or not) a judge’s decision.

 

[oldie48]

When you say you saw unsound horses do you mean blatantly lame rider should not be riding this horse or slightly unlevel on a turn?
i am interested!

I saw horses that IMO were not sound. I am not a vet but clearly what is obviously unsound to me and which I wouldn't compete, in other people's opinion was OK to compete. I genuinely think some riders are unaware that they are riding an unsound horse. I headed my post as "Observations" because that was what I was sharing.
I'm certainly no expert on lameness but I think there's a reason that at a vetting horses are put on a circle to assess their soundness, having four legs they can become adept at compensating for a problem especially in a straight line but this is more difficult for them if they are put on a circle (or a turn) and with hind limb lameness, particularly if it is bilateral, this is often when it will show up. So although I really can't answer your question as I'm not qualified to do so, is a horse that is clearly nodding on the straight because it has pain in eg the right fore in any less discomfort that a horse that is bilaterally lame behind but appears sound in a straight line?

 

[tristar]

I don't want to go in to cliché but the reputation of German and Dutch riding is that it is heavy handed indeed. There are different ways of riding and usually the horses don't get asked what they prefer.
After watching dressage all last week at a championship, from grass roots to very good amateurs and pro, my take home is that the horses ridden on a strong contact seemed really stressed and like the front end didn't match the back end (although they lifted their legs higher and got better scores) and the horses ridden on a soft contact were more relaxed throughout with a flowing test but perhaps less precision.

true they are still learning about balance, contact at that point

precision is the death in tests at the lower levels

 

[paddi22]

Also what I've experienced with the people I've mentioned is that they don't understand the "cushioned" comments from the judge.

They seemed to translate notes of unlevel steps and inconsistent contact/on a circle etc as schooling issues rather than veterinary iykwim

this is where the vagueness of comments can come in. you also see a lot of tests where horses aren't lame, but the contact is inconsistent because of bouncing hands, riders dropping contact, horse reacting to a tug of rein when rider loses balance etc.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think it is (sadly) probably fair to say that at unaffiliated prelim, probably two thirds of the tests that you'll watch will be horses and riders without core basic understanding of correct work under the scales of training. I think a lot of the core reason for that is probably in poor riding instruction, or total lack of decent tuition, from the start of a rider's education.

Because while it is easy to say 'shorten your reins and rider with a consistent connection' if the rider's position and balance isn't good enough, they can't do that. And if the horse and rider can't move together in a consistent rhythm they can't establish contact. And if the horse can't move in a supple way, you can't have consistent contact.

And I'm not sure what the point of going out competing when you don't have the basics in place is... but I think it probably comes from the naivete of simply not knowing what you don't know.

I'm more ambivalent on the lame steps thing - if horse is clearly lame a judge should pull it up. If it is a 'maybe' lame, judge will have a word at the end. But there are lots and lots of bits of poor balance, rhythm and lack of basic training which will look essentially like lameness too - and probably aren't.

 

[eahotson]

SBloom who frequently posts on these forums wrote in a recent discussion on dressage that bodyworkers for horses found many with twisted pelvises.The higher the level of schooling and the higher the level of compepitor the more likely you are to find this.Can someone explain to me how a horse with a twisted pelvis can a. Be sound and b. be comfortable in their work?

 

[Bernster]

this is where the vagueness of comments can come in. you also see a lot of tests where horses aren't lame, but the contact is inconsistent because of bouncing hands, riders dropping contact, horse reacting to a tug of rein when rider loses balance etc.

True, my ins has just pointed out that I’m wiggling my hands unhelpfully, which is causing a wiggly head nod. I sort my hands out, wiggly head gets sorted out too.

 

[Marigold4]

I think it is (sadly) probably fair to say that at unaffiliated prelim, probably two thirds of the tests that you'll watch will be horses and riders without core basic understanding of correct work under the scales of training. I think a lot of the core reason for that is probably in poor riding instruction, or total lack of decent tuition, from the start of a rider's education.

Because while it is easy to say 'shorten your reins and rider with a consistent connection' if the rider's position and balance isn't good enough, they can't do that. And if the horse and rider can't move together in a consistent rhythm they can't establish contact. And if the horse can't move in a supple way, you can't have consistent contact.

And I'm not sure what the point of going out competing when you don't have the basics in place is... but I think it probably comes from the naivete of simply not knowing what you don't know.

I'm more ambivalent on the lame steps thing - if horse is clearly lame a judge should pull it up. If it is a 'maybe' lame, judge will have a word at the end. But there are lots and lots of bits of poor balance, rhythm and lack of basic training which will look essentially like lameness too - and probably aren't.

I guess the "point" of going out competing at this level is in the name of these early tests: 'Intro' and 'Prelim'. The riders entering are on a journey to a higher level. They video and watch their test, read the feedback and learn something, book a lesson and try to improve . If we could ride like a Grand Prix rider, then we wouldn't be doing these low level tests. We've all got to start somewhere - give us a break!

 

[milliepops]

In fairness i didn't interpret RF in quite that manner, there is a place for intro and prelim tests for horses and riders that are learning their craft, i don't think many people would take issue with that. But there's a difference between a horse and rider combination that are showing off a good level of introductory or preliminary training - understanding and working well at that level, and those who are lacking in the basics even at the foot of the training ladder.

Had a funny discussion with my trainer last week, who had previously worked at a yard where the owner didn't compete AT ALL until the horses were trained to GP. that's some kind of self restraint

 

[RachelFerd]

In fairness i didn't interpret RF in quite that manner, there is a place for intro and prelim tests for horses and riders that are learning their craft, i don't think many people would take issue with that. But there's a difference between a horse and rider combination that are showing off a good level of introductory or preliminary training - understanding and working well at that level, and those who are lacking in the basics even at the foot of the training ladder.

Had a funny discussion with my trainer last week, who had previously worked at a yard where the owner didn't compete AT ALL until the horses were trained to GP. that's some kind of self restraint

Yep, and I think there's a strange flaw in dressage marking at the unaffiliated intro/prelim level that can give people a bit of a false impression of where they are at. Nice green young horse might come in and do a test which is wobbly but showing some evidence of correct training, and scores 65/66% perhaps, with some distracted errors and some lack of consistency and strength, but nice moments.

And then someone can come in without the basics in place who negotiates their way around the test doing things fairly accurately - everything happening in the right place, but showing no fundamental positive quality in the basic training (inconsistent rhythm, no longitudinal suppleness, no (or very inconsistent) connection) and scores maybe 59/60%

And the second rider goes home super chuffed because they were 'only 5% off that really smart young horse' --- but the reality is that they're a world more than 5% away from being close to that horse. That 5% doesn't really give a genuine picture of how much work the basic training and understanding needs to be at to be at a place to build from.

That's why people get stuck at prelim forever - because they're in a cycle of competing and chasing minor % differences, rather than addressing the training needs which would see them consolidating basics until the novice, ele work would suddenly become easy (and much more interesting too).

 

[paddi22]

playing devils advocate here, I would say a massive percentage of prelim riders are prelim riders for life, and could never move to novice.

the understanding of correct balance, contact and bend is complex. It requires feel (which a lot of people don't have) and also an understanding of correct movement/ forwardness/balance (which a lot of instructors for lower level riders just don't go into or explain). A lot of people wouldn't have even ridden a horse going 'correctly' so they wouldn't even know what kind of feel or movement they should be aiming for.

I remember years ago sitting on a trained, balanced dressage horse belonging to my trainer, who had a correct canter, and just being absolutely awestruck because it felt so different to my own wonky horse's canter. It opened a window onto another world. A lot of people don't get that window opened to them and as another poster said 'you don't know what you don't know'.

realistically, if an instructor is teaching a rider who might have physical issues (due to age/injury etc) with a stiff horse, who possibly only gets to ride a few times a week, maybe with bad facilities - unless the rider specifically states they want to learn it, I can see why an instructor wouldn't want to confuse a rider by going into bend, flex, balance, shoulders, hind end working correctly etc. It's a massive amount to take in, and it's really something that requires focused education and exploration.

and I can totally see why someone would want to bring their horse for a day out at a show just for fun, even if they aren't on a dressage learning pathway.

 

[milliepops]

playing devils advocate here, I would say a massive percentage of prelim riders are prelim riders for life, and could never move to novice.

the understanding of correct balance, contact and bend is complex. It requires feel (which a lot of people don't have) and also an understanding of correct movement/ forwardness/balance (which a lot of instructors for lower level riders just don't go into or explain). A lot of people wouldn't have even ridden a horse going 'correctly' so they wouldn't even know what kind of feel or movement they should be aiming for.

I remember years ago sitting on a trained, balanced dressage horse belonging to my trainer, who had a correct canter, and just being absolutely awestruck because it felt so different to my own wonky horse's canter. It opened a window onto another world. A lot of people don't get that window opened to them and as another poster said 'you don't know what you don't know'.

realistically, if an instructor is teaching a rider who might have physical issues (due to age/injury etc) with a stiff horse, who possibly only gets to ride a few times a week, maybe with bad facilities - unless the rider specifically states they want to learn it, I can see why an instructor wouldn't want to confuse a rider by going into bend, flex, balance, shoulders, hind end working correctly etc. It's a massive amount to take in, and it's really something that requires focused education and exploration.

and I can totally see why someone would want to bring their horse for a day out at a show just for fun, even if they aren't on a dressage learning pathway.

yes i can see that people like going out for a fun day too, and I agree that a lot of riders don't necessarily know what it is for a horse to go correctly even at that basic level. In the past i used to ride quite a lot of grass rooty amateur fun type horses for their owners and that's an illuminating experience in terms of how things i consider to be absolute essentials are not essential for lots of people.

The training enthusiast in me thinks that not addressing this even in the most rudimentary way in lessons is doing both horse and rider a dis-service but there are lots of jobbing instructors who also lack that understanding and for as long as people think "going round in circles is boring" they will never be open to seeing how dealing with some of the basics like straightness and balance make all of the horse's work so much easier and more pleasant for everyone. I suppose you don't miss what you've never had

 

[RachelFerd]

playing devils advocate here, I would say a massive percentage of prelim riders are prelim riders for life, and could never move to novice.

the understanding of correct balance, contact and bend is complex. It requires feel (which a lot of people don't have) and also an understanding of correct movement/ forwardness/balance (which a lot of instructors for lower level riders just don't go into or explain). A lot of people wouldn't have even ridden a horse going 'correctly' so they wouldn't even know what kind of feel or movement they should be aiming for.

I remember years ago sitting on a trained, balanced dressage horse belonging to my trainer, who had a correct canter, and just being absolutely awestruck because it felt so different to my own wonky horse's canter. It opened a window onto another world. A lot of people don't get that window opened to them and as another poster said 'you don't know what you don't know'.

realistically, if an instructor is teaching a rider who might have physical issues (due to age/injury etc) with a stiff horse, who possibly only gets to ride a few times a week, maybe with bad facilities - unless the rider specifically states they want to learn it, I can see why an instructor wouldn't want to confuse a rider by going into bend, flex, balance, shoulders, hind end working correctly etc. It's a massive amount to take in, and it's really something that requires focused education and exploration.

and I can totally see why someone would want to bring their horse for a day out at a show just for fun, even if they aren't on a dressage learning pathway.

I don't disagree with what you're saying - but I kind of view it as the instructor's responsibility to start from the beginning and try and teach it - and at least be honest and realistic with clients to help them understand what they do not yet know.

 

[paddi22]

I don't disagree with what you're saying - but I kind of view it as the instructor's responsibility to start from the beginning and try and teach it - and at least be honest and realistic with clients to help them understand what they do not yet know.

I agree, but some people really just ride for fun and they don't have the urge for a lot of self improvement. if an instructor was to start down that path with a client, they would realistically have to spend months on the lunge or in walk explaining bend/flexion/shoulders. and I genuinely think there if a very large percentage of people who won't want to do that or don't care. so the instructor just does what they can. and I can kind of understand it from their viewpoint. if you see a rider maybe once every month or two, you are probably safer leaving them popping around with a poked out nose, rather than have a rider sawing away pulling the head in incorrectly because they aren't investing enough in training to have someone guiding them regularly.

you are taking it from the viewpoint of you being a competitive rider, who loves learning and self improvement. a lot of people just want to potter, get the odd lesson and enjoy the odd show. they don't have inbuilt goals or aims. that's just how they are built.

 

[paddi22]

plus a lot of people use horse riding as relaxation time. I totally get why someone in their 60s nursing their sick husband, or someone struggling with baby blues, or going through a divorce, just don't have the head space or time to focus on training.

 

[RachelFerd]

I agree, but some people really just ride for fun and they don't have the urge for a lot of self improvement. if an instructor was to start down that path with a client, they would realistically have to spend months on the lunge or in walk explaining bend/flexion/shoulders. and I genuinely think there if a very large percentage of people who won't want to do that or don't care. so the instructor just does what they can. and I can kind of understand it from their viewpoint. if you see a rider maybe once every month or two, you are probably safer leaving them popping around with a poked out nose, rather than have a rider sawing away pulling the head in incorrectly because they aren't investing enough in training to have someone guiding them regularly.

you are taking it from the viewpoint of you being a competitive rider, who loves learning and self improvement. a lot of people just want to potter, get the odd lesson and enjoy the odd show. they don't have inbuilt goals or aims. that's just how they are built.

I totally get the idea of pottering around enjoying your horse. What I don't get is how any form of competitive riding fits into that world view. I can't get into the headspace of wanting to do prelim dressage competitions, but not wanting to take it at least seriously enough to make sure that horse and rider are prepared for it. But then I am the lady with a spreadsheet for what my horses need to do every day for the next 3 months....

 

[paddi22]

I totally get the idea of pottering around enjoying your horse. What I don't get is how any form of competitive riding fits into that world view. I can't get into the headspace of wanting to do prelim dressage competitions, but not wanting to take it at least seriously enough to make sure that horse and rider are prepared for it. But then I am the lady with a spreadsheet for what my horses need to do every day for the next 3 months....

I totally get you, I'm the same! but to be prepared for prelim, you are still looking at serious complex understanding of riding. even something as basic as turning a horse left or right after a centre line takes a massive amount of education to do it properly. it's probably muscle memory and automatic to you now as a high level rider. but it's complex stuff - knowing when to half halt, how to balance, knowing where your own balance is, keeping the contact correct on the turn, keeping the rhythm, the flex etc. it's a lot!

 

[RachelFerd]

I totally get you, I'm the same! but to be prepared for prelim, you are still looking at serious complex understanding of riding. even something as basic as turning a horse left or right after a centre line takes a massive amount of education to do it properly. it's probably muscle memory and automatic to you now as a high level rider. but it's complex stuff - knowing when to half halt, how to balance, knowing where your own balance is, keeping the contact correct on the turn, keeping the rhythm, the flex etc. it's a lot!

Yip. And I know full well that, despite being a 'high(ish) level rider' I still do lots of things wrong. I had a lesson with an FBHS recently who took apart my rising trot. And movement of my seat in canter. Was an essential wake-up call (again).

I also teach and finished off a few qualifications at a good training centre recently. It was lovely to do so much practice teaching with horses who could quickly give people the correct feel when they got things right. Most of the (limited amount) of teaching I do is with people on own horses who don't yet have the correct responses to the rider getting things slightly more right. I try to only teach poles/jumping as feel I can have more value add in some ad-hoc irregular lessons in that space. And teaching is just a small hobby to me, not my full-time job.

I honestly think so many riders would benefit from going and having some lessons at the decent BHS training centres to begin to learn that feel. I don't think you can say that 'feel' is something that someone 'doesn't have' - they just haven't had the opportunity to learn feel. I think feel is something that can be taught - and people can have real lightbulb moments about feel by having lessons on horses who are more educated than their own.

 

[DabDab]

It is actually part of a dressage judges remit to stop a lame horse from continuing. There are vets on call to back up (or not) a judge’s decision.

There generally won't be a vet in attendance at an unaffiliated prelim. I'm not sure if it is even a requirement at low level affiliated shows is it?