Oh Honestly

[monkeybum13]

I think we need to realise sometimes that life is not all perfect and that sometimes we need to do things which work for us. For example I ride in a pelham with d rings and a crank noseband. Have a strong little sod and it works for us.

Terrible, remove that tack at once. Didn't you know everything should go in a snaffle and cavesson for everything...

 

[Hackie]

How odd, that doesn't look like Badminton, Burghley, Kentucky, Luhmuhlen, Adelaide, Pau *or* the Olympics. And it's one horse. Plus she has a bridle on, which is pretty much cheating if you want to play that game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEfm606tDZ8


I wasn't suggesting you need a bit to jump or go XC or in fact do anything with a horse, I was merely making the point that to say it's a lack of riding ability or a lack of schooling which means horses can't do everything in a snaffle and cavesson is faintly ridiculous, because the logical conclusion to that argument is that the event riders at the Olympics can't ride very well and don't bother schooling their horses. Which is clearly nonsense.

No one is suggetsing that all bits don't have their purpose. But from the original couple of messages from the OP, they have indicated that they cannot control their horse (they say that without it they cannot go faster than a walk without pulling his mouth, and he is evasive without the martingale, putting his head up when he is asked to do something he doesn't want to do) under ordinary circumstances without the current set up (which is a very strong combination, is it not).

This is a very different situation, as described by the OP, to requiring stronger bits riding at olymipc level eventing, is it not?

And to then suggest such a horse is well schooled does indicate a lack of knowledge and probably ability, IMO.

 

[SpottedCat]

No one is suggetsing that all bits don't have their purpose. But from the original couple of messages from the OP, they have indicated that they cannot control their horse (they say that without it they cannot go faster than a walk without pulling his mouth, and he is evasive without the martingale, putting his head up when he is asked to do something he doesn't want to do) under ordinary circumstances without the current set up (which is a very strong combination, is it not).

This is a very different situation, as described by the OP, to requiring stronger bits riding at olymipc level eventing, is it not?

And to then suggest such a horse is well schooled does indicate a lack of knowledge and probably ability, IMO.

I am hugely impressed at your ability to infer all that from one post of 4 sentences long.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

No one is suggetsing that all bits don't have their purpose. But from the original couple of messages from the OP, they have indicated that they cannot control their horse (they say that without it they cannot go faster than a walk without pulling his mouth, and he is evasive without the martingale, putting his head up when he is asked to do something he doesn't want to do) under ordinary circumstances without the current set up (which is a very strong combination, is it not).

This is a very different situation, as described by the OP, to requiring stronger bits riding at olymipc level eventing, is it not?

And to then suggest such a horse is well schooled does indicate a lack of knowledge, IMO.

THANK YOU- AT LAST!

SC, I did NOT say the OP didn't know how to ride, not at all. Yes, she may well be a better rider than you or I. All I did was make a SUGGESTION. No she may not have asked for it, so shoot me. It's a public forum and people don't always stick to the exact topic.

 

[snopuma]

without the martingale his head goes sky high... mainly when he wants to do something that i dont want him to

I find that with the gag and martingale he keeps his head and neck relaxed and works into a contact willingly and seems very happy and doesnt fight me

its definitely not a 'schooling issue' as hes very well schooled but can be a bit 'stubborn' and very strong from time to time lol

he'll quickly tell me if there is an issue too

Sounds like it is a schooling issue if he hasn't learnt to respect a snaffle, and he isn't well schooled if you have to put all that lot on.

 

[Hackie]

I am hugely impressed at your ability to infer all that from one post of 4 sentences long.

Its in the first and third posts at 11:21 and 11:28, and admitedly I can only go off what they have posted however its quite clear if you ask me. Sorry, having trouble quoting but to cut and paste :

'I could ride him in just a normal cavesson noseband, no martingale and a snaffle.... IF i wanted to constantly have to pull on his mouth and hold him in a vice like grip and go no faster than walk'

'without the martingale his head goes sky high... mainly when he wants to do something that i dont want him to'

These are quoted directly - the rider is using this bit and tack to keep basic control, its a pretty simple inference if you ask me.

 

[Booboos]

TBH this sounds a lot to me like a lack of confidence in the rider, a lack of feel and a definate lack of softness.

If your release is good, ie the pressure is stopped as soon as you get the slightest response from the horse, it's not long before you get a positive result with the lightest of ask. In fact if you use your seat before the rein you will end up not needing to ask with the rein.

The object of it all is to get the horse concentrating on you, not whats going on around it or other horses, what you ask for you should get, no more, no less.

Do you remember the dressage at the Olympic's? When it was all over Charlotte rode around on a loose rein waving at the crowd on a relaxed chilled out well rounded horse. Adeline Cornelissen on the other hand, and she'd just taken a silver. You would hardly want to ride that horse anywhere. You don't want frenzied jumping rounds, where you've got more tie down crap on the horse, because you are hanging on and not properly controlling whats going on. If the horse is to jump a fence then it jumps it because it can and you asked it too.

Also worth mentioning bronze medal winner Laura B, seen hanging onto Alf for dear life during the prize giving as well

 

[Pale Rider]

PR two horses is not a statistically significant sample, you know?

We dont know (but I think we can guess) the relative calmness of those two horses in their general demeanour. All horses are different.

If that example demonstates anything it demonstrates how utterly ridiculous it is for you to say that every single horse can be trained so that it never needs a bit in its mouth for any discipline.

Take your point about two horses, but what I was trying to illustrate was the two differing training regimes employed by the two stables. Every horse I've seen Charlotte ride and Carl for that matter isn't out of its head like Adeline Cornelissen's mounts.

All horses are different, but you can achieve the same levels of training for different horses just by a differing approach to each individual. What works for one may not work for another, and of course vice versa.

It is ridiculous to suggest every single horse can be trained so that it never needs a bit in it's mouth, for any discipline. I don't think I've said that. However, lots of horses are trained in all sorts of disciplines without a bit. What is even more ridiculous is the crap people rely on to ride horses in all sorts of disciplines with massive holes in the training, thinking its brave, clever and skillful when in fact it is stupid, reckless and far less skillful than training the horse properly in the first place.

 

[Pale Rider]

Also worth mentioning bronze medal winner Laura B, seen hanging onto Alf for dear life during the prize giving as well

Strong German influence there though.

 

[Singing Dawg]

'I could ride him in just a normal cavesson noseband, no martingale and a snaffle.... IF i wanted to constantly have to pull on his mouth and hold him in a vice like grip and go no faster than walk'

'without the martingale his head goes sky high... mainly when he wants to do something that i dont want him to'

These are quotes by the rider.

As I see it:

1. Pony has probably not/never been properly schooled.

2. Rider needs to learn to ride with their seat and independantly of hands.

3. Fashion victim. Grackles, shiny rings, clips and bits with hoops on. They are the "in things", but that does not mean its what you should have!

Get into the school or safe enclosed area and teach your pony to stop simply by taking hold of his neck strap. At first you will need an almighty pull but pony will soon work out what you want and it will make riding so much more fun. I've done it on everything from daft Arabs that run from their own shadows to 17.2 4* eventers, simple, cheap, and not nearly so much leather to clean

 

[siennamum]

really... all the advanced eventers ridden in gags and martingales, are unschooled...

I think a few advamced event riders shoudl be seeking lessons in the new lounge.

 

[Lulup]

I'm sure there are a lot of horses/ponies belonging to forum members that are not correctly schooled, because there are probably many forum members that are not fully aware of what is 'correct' or indeed how to achieve it. The horse world in general is full of examples of this - go and watch the collecting ring at any novice show ( or indeed not so novice shows ) in any equestrian discipline.

We all have to learn and sadly many do not learn correctly - they learn short cuts and ways of coping in the absence of proper riding BUT they do not realise this because their level of competence doesn't enable them to see/understand this. We are all guilty of this to a point because we may know what we want to achieve but may not always be expert enough to do it so our methods may be considered 'incorrect' by the next level of competence up from us. This will always be the case. For example - a flat work session on my horse that may leave me very, very pleased would no doubt leave a lot to be desired if being judged by a seasoned dressage pro.. It's all relative.

The point is that anybody novice enough to be using such a combination in ignorance, and in place of correct riding/schooling will not really understand the principles being discussed here and your arguements would be, if the OP was such a person (I make no suggestion either way) falling on deaf ears anyway.

And if her horse did happen to be in need of such a combination through lack of correct schooling/correct riding then do you really think that the person sat on top would have the
necessary skill level to suddenly realise the error of their ways and teach the horse to stop from a seat aid... Listen to what you are saying - we live in an imperfect world and we are not all Carl Hester/Charlotte DJ

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

This all leads to the argument about nose bands and spurs ect its all relative!

I ride my 4 year old in a grackle, breast plate martin gale and spurs. He doesnt need the martingale but id rather have it on that not (personal choice). He does need a grackle as he likes to carry his jaw crossed meaning I can never get a consistent contact with him (been like this since day 1 so cant say its a training issue. Also had teeth checked) and I wear spurs OR carry a whip as he isnt a very responsive horse in general. He is NOW starting to become responsive and so I dont need to use my spurs or whip as often, only as a reminder to listen to my leg or go forwards.

Its relative. Most 4 year olds I have produced have been in snaffles and plain nosebands in their early years. He is just different. But he isnt a poorly schooled or horrible horse, nor am I an incapable rider


Sorry a bit off topic but I think OPs situation shouldnt be judged unless she requests that. If the horses is happy and safe, and she is happy and safe then who is to say its wrong?

 

[Hippona]

But do you think a horse who puts his head in the air as an evasion is happy though?

Genuine question, because I'd be looking at why, not simply adding more tack....

And no, I'm not a pro rider.... so obviously I won't know anything

 

[siennamum]

But do you think a horse who puts his head in the air as an evasion is happy though?

Genuine question, because I'd be looking at why, not simply adding more tack....

And no, I'm not a pro rider.... so obviously I won't know anything

yes it could be perfectly happy - it could be very excited and wanting to get to a fence before the rider and inclined to throw its head in the air. It could simply have learned that this works

 

[Hackie]

yes it could be perfectly happy - it could be very excited and wanting to get to a fence before the rider and inclined to throw its head in the air. It could simply have learned that this works

Thats evasion and conflict with the rider, not excitement, and again, indicates a lack of schooling...

ETA and in the words of the rider, it does it whenever he wants to do something she doesn't - that not a horse that is going 'happily' under saddle.

 

[Jo_x]

You can't be serious? Have you ever actually WATCHED one in use? The top piece swings forwards, shortening the cheek piece, and applying poll pressure.

That certainly isn't what I observe when I've used a hanging cheek snaffle, it doesnt pull on the poll any more than a loose ring or eggbutt does.

 

[Enfys]

I guess the same applies to all the eventers at the Olympics who went XC in anything other than a snaffle and a cavesson? If only they would actually spend some time learning to ride and school their horses, they wouldn't need the pelhams and gags and grackles

Shhhhhhhh

No-one on here changes bits for parties either of course, and it goes without saying that all the naysayers know this horse and rider combination personally.

As often happens on any forum the discussion has gone off on a tangent, away from the original thread, that happens in conversations.

Possibly some of the opinions will be useful to others and someone may have a lightbulb moment and think "Ah, I'll try that" or "Oh, so that's why....." so in a way, all the lecturing may do some good.

 

[monkeybum13]

I'm surprised some of you manage to type with your heads so far up your own backsides

 

[Hippona]

yes it could be perfectly happy - it could be very excited and wanting to get to a fence before the rider and inclined to throw its head in the air. It could simply have learned that this works

I don't believe OP was talking specifically about jumping? I read it as 'in general'.....

 

[siennamum]

Thats evasion and conflict with the rider, not excitement, and again, indicates a lack of schooling..

So horses which throw their heads in the air in excitement are unschooled. Even if they are competing at a high level....

 

[PandorasJar]

Mine is unbacked, so different view but just in field behaviour, head up like a giraffe and prances round in a position that would have her head in my face.
Only ever does it when very excited and hooning round with herd, very much happy. Thankfully likes to spend most of her life at snail pace!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I don't believe OP was talking specifically about jumping? I read it as 'in general'.....

Me too? I don't get where people are reading XC and jumping from? Equally, OP didn't specify that it was only for general/flatwork use either so I guess we're all guilty of jumping to conclusions.

 

[SuperCoblet]

I ride my cob in a Waterford dutch gag, flash noseband and martingale. I also ride him in a French link snaffle and flash noseband and no martingale.
I could ride him in a headcollar if I really wanted to but he's happy and responsive in what I pit him in, it doesn't mean I'm a bad rider, it's what's best for him for different disciplines without me hauling his teeth out! 90% of the time I just need to touch the reins and he'll listen however he can be a little unpredictable and do the occasion tanking off (less common now than 2 years ago) but I need a strong bit for when he does decide to do one!

I agree with OP here.

 

[Hippona]

So horses which throw their heads in the air in excitement are unschooled. Even if they are competing at a high level....

I don't think anyone said that...

But....not all horse who throw their heads in the air ARE excited...its a recognised evasion. So...why the evasion? Rather than stick more tack on, why not look further?

Not having a go. We all do things differently.....

 

[Christsam]

So horses which throw their heads in the air in excitement are unschooled. Even if they are competing at a high level....

she didnt say excitement shows a lack of schooling. She said that is evasion and conflict, not excitement, which shows a lack of schooling.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I think everyone should just do what they feel is best. I get stick (on here) for my tack choices but if I showed you my happy 4 year old schooling rather than just a picture I wonder how many would moan then?

Boring video of a boring horse (just to say I AM NOT A BUSINESS DONT BUTTON PUSH)
In a grackle, breast plate and spurs for a reason. Without the grackle he just does his own thing as carries himself crossed with ridden (teeth have been checked) This is the first time he was sat on coming back into work as a 4 year old this winter!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yZiF76BTWU


Off topic but its each to their own!

 

[Hackie]

So horses which throw their heads in the air in excitement are unschooled. Even if they are competing at a high level....

No, not all horses that throw their heads are unschooled, thats not what I wrote at all. However, if a horse raises its head to evade the bit as it approaches a jump, then yes, that could indicate a lack of schooling.

If your horse was taking off with the bit and rushing at jumps, resulting in knocking poles, wouldn't you work on that in your schooling at home/with your instructor to avoid it?

I'm not saying that this is correct all the time, but to generalise, people train their horses not to do this for a reason, don't they?

 

[SpottedCat]

THANK YOU- AT LAST!

SC, I did NOT say the OP didn't know how to ride, not at all. Yes, she may well be a better rider than you or I. All I did was make a SUGGESTION. No she may not have asked for it, so shoot me. It's a public forum and people don't always stick to the exact topic.

Well, you actually kind of did say she didn't know how to ride.

In fact you said:

How about you learn to slow down/stop him using your SEAT and not rely on your reins?

Now, someone who knows how to ride wouldn't need to learn that, would they, especially not if they were a better rider than you. Or me.

Then you said:

If he was well schooled you wouldn't need all those gadgets as he would respond to the rider's seat.

Which is a gross generalisation, as proven by all those horses at the Olympics, which I am pretty sure have been schooled to respond to the rider's seat, but which still do get taken jumping in something other than a snaffle and a cavesson. In fact Tim Stockdale says everyone should jump in a running martingale because it's like a seat belt - you don't notice it until you need it (or words to that effect).

And finally you said:

Lots of transitions needed with him I would think to get him listening to the rider and turn your core muscles on when doing it to stop him ploughing forward and pulling you off your seat which will just result on him ploughing along on the forehand, which may be what he is doing also resulting in him feeling 'strong'

If that's not saying 'you don't know how to ride well enough' then I don't know what is!

Poor OP - all she was doing was ranting about people giving her grief when her horse goes perfectly well for her in the setup she uses, and everyone on here assumes she needs a virtual riding lesson even though there's a possibility she rides a lot better than some/all of us since she hasn't shared a picture or a video of her riding on this thread.

 

[Lady La La]

I think a few advanced event riders should be seeking lessons in the new lounge.

Best quote I've seen on here in a long time!