Oh Honestly

Christsam

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No, not all horses that throw their heads are unschooled, thats not what I wrote at all. However, if a horse raises its head to evade the bit as it approaches a jump, then yes, that could indicate a lack of schooling.

If your horse was taking off with the bit and rushing at jumps, resulting in knocking poles, wouldn't you work on that in your schooling at home/with your instructor to avoid it?

I'm not saying that this is correct all the time, but to generalise, people train their horses not to do this for a reason, don't they?

This. im trying to think hard so dont everyone shoot me for saying this but....... showjumpers use martingales, but how many do you see jumping in gags etc. (and yes i know john whitaker does or has done but think most use a snaffle of some sort)
 

siennamum

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Thats evasion and conflict with the rider, not excitement, and again, indicates a lack of schooling...

ETA and in the words of the rider, it does it whenever he wants to do something she doesn't - that not a horse that is going 'happily' under saddle.

This post says quite clearly that this is not excitement and indicates a lack of schooling. I think it can be excitement and it does not mean a horse is unschooled.
 

siennamum

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This. im trying to think hard so dont everyone shoot me for saying this but....... showjumpers use martingales, but how many do you see jumping in gags etc. (and yes i know john whitaker does or has done but think most use a snaffle of some sort)

or a butterfly bit, double, pelham or american gag even. I actually believe the dutch gag started out called a pessoa cause Nelson Pessoa started using it and it becaome mainstream. - not that he could be described as a sj master or anything (sorry tongue in cheek, couldn't resist it tho)
 

SpottedCat

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This. im trying to think hard so dont everyone shoot me for saying this but....... showjumpers use martingales, but how many do you see jumping in gags etc. (and yes i know john whitaker does or has done but think most use a snaffle of some sort)

Well there's this one, which isn't a snaffle: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/19153700

And this isn't a snaffle either: http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/21671/images/Tim Stockdale 2.jpg

And this definitely isn't a snaffle (scroll down): http://www.zubin-r.com/ben-maher/

:D :D :D
 

siennamum

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Girlracer

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My horse chucks his head in the air. Is it an evasion then?

naughtypone.jpg


If so, he also evades in the field!

600388_195580347234242_437385114_n.jpg


And that's why he wears a martingale.

I don't think it's necessarily bad schooling, although i'm un-sure in what context this horse get's 'strong'. I don't know the full story and have never seen said horse in action so I can't hugely comment.
 

be positive

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This. im trying to think hard so dont everyone shoot me for saying this but....... showjumpers use martingales, but how many do you see jumping in gags etc. (and yes i know john whitaker does or has done but think most use a snaffle of some sort)

Not many top show jumpers are ridden in snaffles, I remember watching Ben Mayers Tripple x at the Olympics jumping in a snaffle and thinking how nice it was to see.
Dutch Gags will not be the bit of choice for many riders as they are rather crude in their action, most riders will be looking for subtlety and fine tuning, something a dutch gag will rarely give.
 

Perfect_Pirouette

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Which is a gross generalisation, as proven by all those horses at the Olympics, which I am pretty sure have been schooled to respond to the rider's seat, but which still do get taken jumping in something other than a snaffle and a cavesson. In fact Tim Stockdale says everyone should jump in a running martingale because it's like a seat belt - you don't notice it until you need it (or words to that effect).

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps my post came accross not as intended. However I will say this, I was NOT talking about jumping. I was talking about dressage and flatwork. I have NOT said all horses need to be jumped in a snaffle, nor have I said all horses need to be schooled on the flat in a snaffle. However, IMO, a well schooled horse on the FLAT should not need martingales, grackles and gags. Hence why we don't see the above in combination in a dressage test. Jumping, I will agree is a different ball game, again IMO, because the horse's attention isn't 100% soley on the rider, but locked onto a jump, there is probably more adrenalin and speed involved, creating the need for stronger bits and martingales.

This is just my opinion.
 

Booboos

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Take your point about two horses, but what I was trying to illustrate was the two differing training regimes employed by the two stables. Every horse I've seen Charlotte ride and Carl for that matter isn't out of its head like Adeline Cornelissen's mounts.

All horses are different, but you can achieve the same levels of training for different horses just by a differing approach to each individual. What works for one may not work for another, and of course vice versa.

It is ridiculous to suggest every single horse can be trained so that it never needs a bit in it's mouth, for any discipline. I don't think I've said that. However, lots of horses are trained in all sorts of disciplines without a bit. What is even more ridiculous is the crap people rely on to ride horses in all sorts of disciplines with massive holes in the training, thinking its brave, clever and skillful when in fact it is stupid, reckless and far less skillful than training the horse properly in the first place.

I don't mean to be rude but how many horses have you seen Charlotte and CH ride? I have seen them ride very few and still seen them have problems and they openly discuss having 'energetic' horses.

For example, a younger Valegro had been known to piss off across the Addington arenas in flight. Or at the BD convention recently Carl spoke specifically about how he likes his horses very sharp. He gave the example of Dances with Wolves who took off with Carl only the week before when he was warming up for the Horse of the Year demo and someone dropped a chair down the stands. DwW by the way was also very much curled up and BTV with tension at the BD convention (not ridden by CH though) and CH was very matter of fact about it. He spoke at length about how the horse is physically capable of GP but not mentally so, therefore the horse needed working in in similar situations until he relaxed (all DwD did for the two days was get worked in trot and canter until he could relax and lengthen his frame).

CH specifically discussed tension in the DR horse and said that he challenges anyone who thinks it is easy to ride GP with relaxation to get out of their chair and do so. It's one thing to be an armchair critic and another to walk from the relaxed warm-up at Olympia straight into the ring with 6,000 people right next to you, bright lights, noise and just 45 seconds to get cantering down the centre line to the perfect halt.

Escapado (when CH was riding him) and Nip Tuck (now) were both competed from the field as CH found them too hot otherwise, so they kind of sound as "out of their heads" (not a term I would use for any of these horses btw) as Alf and Parcival.

The one who appeared (with EG at least) incredibly relaxed was of course Totilas, but that's the benefit of the Dutch method for you! :rolleyes:
 

Christsam

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Not many top show jumpers are ridden in snaffles, I remember watching Ben Mayers Tripple x at the Olympics jumping in a snaffle and thinking how nice it was to see.
Dutch Gags will not be the bit of choice for many riders as they are rather crude in their action, most riders will be looking for subtlety and fine tuning, something a dutch gag will rarely give.

thank god for a sensible correction of my thoughts (of which I did say i was having trouble thinking so was asking the question) instead of ones with all the uncalled for remarks or punctuation.

i am, actually one who does think that its fine to use something stronger for jumping but, there you go.
 

Hackie

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This post says quite clearly that this is not excitement and indicates a lack of schooling. I think it can be excitement and it does not mean a horse is unschooled.

I said it INDICATES a lack of schooling, not that by definition a horse that tosses its head is unschooled. Maybe you can understand the subtlety of that sentance, maybe you can't.

Obviously, horses are animals and things like head tossing happen to the best of them. But lets face it - the OP isn't using the martingale to prevent this, she states in her second post that the horse evades her aids/the bit by raising its head without it.

If she'd said 'He gets a bit excited coming into the jumps so I use it for that' then we'd be hvaing a different comversation.
 
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CaleruxShearer

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:D :D :D
Best quote I've seen on here in a long time!

Ditto - After much much playing around with bits/nosebands etc on my eventer I have found that the grackle/3 ring/martingale combo works really well on my boy cross country to BE Novice, this was on the advice of one of the british event team trainers! He's amazing xc in this combo, I can bring him back as soon as I touch the rein and then just give him his head when I need to. Used to showjump him in this combo as well but he became slightly backward sj'ing in it so now he goes in a french link snaffle, grackle and martingale.
 

Hippona

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I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps my post came accross not as intended. However I will say this, I was NOT talking about jumping. I was talking about dressage and flatwork. I have NOT said all horses need to be jumped in a snaffle, nor have I said all horses need to be schooled on the flat in a snaffle. However, IMO, a well schooled horse on the FLAT should not need martingales, grackles and gags. Hence why we don't see the above in combination in a dressage test. Jumping, I will agree is a different ball game, again IMO, because the horse's attention isn't 100% soley on the rider, but locked onto a jump, there is probably more adrenalin and speed involved, creating the need for stronger bits and martingales.

This is just my opinion.

I agree:)
 

siennamum

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I said it INDICATES a lack of schooling, not that by definition a horse that tosses its head is unschooled. Maybe you can understand the subtlety of that sentance, maybe you can't.

Obviously, horses are animals and things like head tossing happen to the best of them. But lets face it - the OP isn't using the martingale to prevent this, she states in her second post that the horse evades her aids/the bit by raising its head without it.

If she'd said 'He gets a bit excited coming into the jumps so I use it for that' then we'd be hvaing a different comversation.

oh just a bit of backpeddling.

I think what you meant to say was that it MAY indicate a lack of schooling - which is pretty self evident.
 

Bojingles

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As an aside, I once went to a talk given by Andrew Hoy. Now, he may not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it's fair to say he's got a decent amount of experience under his belt. He said that if anyone ever told you they stop their horse with their seat, to say "Really? Take off your reins then; let's see how far you get."

Just sayin' ;)
 

Rockchick

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I bought the horse in question as a 4yr old from my local riding school - he had been in the school from being around 2yrs old, so as you can imagine he was very worn down and had had no 'proper' schooling and could barely manage a canter. i did nothing but hack him out/ gentle schooling for a few months and then turned him away for the winter (turned away at 14.1hh, came back in at almost 15 hands and is now 15.2hh!! - eek)

He came back into work a very bolshy, strong willed cantankerous little swine who would think nothing of napping, spinning, bolting and quite frankly at times scared the hell out of me - even my instructor said he was a lost cause and to get rid! - bring on a change of instructor and methods. He was then NH trained and became much more enjoyable and i was no longer scared of him, he still had (and still does) have his moments (in fact my mum often refers to him as kevin from harry enfield lol) but i now had the help/support/skills to deal with these as opposed to 'thump whack belt and kick' - which incidentally i have NEVER done! we got him riding from my seat and from a halter (which i still can and do do) and then put him back in a snaffle - which incidentally he has no respect for (sorry but he doesnt) and he hates the 'nut-craker' action of bits so the bit he has in at the moment has the centre revolver in and he is happy! and in answer to your questions yes i have tried him with no martingale, a flash/cavesson noseband (not all at the same time) and its obvious he isnt happy. the combination i have him in at the moment is the happiest ive ever known him be in his head/mouth and for what its worth i barely touch his bit, he rides from my seat/voice/leg but i like to know the alternative breaking system is in place and will work should i need it, for example hacking in large groups / fast work. Hes really sharp and switched on and i know for a fact if he was in 'basic tack' (probably the wrong wording) then we could possibly have issues with both of ours safety - which isnt worth the risk imo. i have tried removing various itmes of his tack to 'check' wether its still needed.... the outcome is yes it is!
my other horse is ridden in nothing more than a simple snaffle and cavesson noseband....

horses for courses i think :)
 

Pale Rider

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I bought the horse in question as a 4yr old from my local riding school - he had been in the school from being around 2yrs old, so as you can imagine he was very worn down and had had no 'proper' schooling and could barely manage a canter. i did nothing but hack him out/ gentle schooling for a few months and then turned him away for the winter (turned away at 14.1hh, came back in at almost 15 hands and is now 15.2hh!! - eek)

He came back into work a very bolshy, strong willed cantankerous little swine who would think nothing of napping, spinning, bolting and quite frankly at times scared the hell out of me - even my instructor said he was a lost cause and to get rid! - bring on a change of instructor and methods. He was then NH trained and became much more enjoyable and i was no longer scared of him, he still had (and still does) have his moments (in fact my mum often refers to him as kevin from harry enfield lol) but i now had the help/support/skills to deal with these as opposed to 'thump whack belt and kick' - which incidentally i have NEVER done! we got him riding from my seat and from a halter (which i still can and do do) and then put him back in a snaffle - which incidentally he has no respect for (sorry but he doesnt) and he hates the 'nut-craker' action of bits so the bit he has in at the moment has the centre revolver in and he is happy! and in answer to your questions yes i have tried him with no martingale, a flash/cavesson noseband (not all at the same time) and its obvious he isnt happy. the combination i have him in at the moment is the happiest ive ever known him be in his head/mouth and for what its worth i barely touch his bit, he rides from my seat/voice/leg but i like to know the alternative breaking system is in place and will work should i need it, for example hacking in large groups / fast work. Hes really sharp and switched on and i know for a fact if he was in 'basic tack' (probably the wrong wording) then we could possibly have issues with both of ours safety - which isnt worth the risk imo. i have tried removing various itmes of his tack to 'check' wether its still needed.... the outcome is yes it is!
my other horse is ridden in nothing more than a simple snaffle and cavesson noseband....

horses for courses i think :)

Nice post, kept us all occupied for a while, :D
 

cptrayes

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I bought the horse in question as a 4yr old from my local riding school - he had been in the school from being around 2yrs old, so as you can imagine he was very worn down and had had no 'proper' schooling and could barely manage a canter. i did nothing but hack him out/ gentle schooling for a few months and then turned him away for the winter (turned away at 14.1hh, came back in at almost 15 hands and is now 15.2hh!! - eek)

He came back into work a very bolshy, strong willed cantankerous little swine who would think nothing of napping, spinning, bolting and quite frankly at times scared the hell out of me - even my instructor said he was a lost cause and to get rid! - bring on a change of instructor and methods. He was then NH trained and became much more enjoyable and i was no longer scared of him, he still had (and still does) have his moments (in fact my mum often refers to him as kevin from harry enfield lol) but i now had the help/support/skills to deal with these as opposed to 'thump whack belt and kick' - which incidentally i have NEVER done! we got him riding from my seat and from a halter (which i still can and do do) and then put him back in a snaffle - which incidentally he has no respect for (sorry but he doesnt) and he hates the 'nut-craker' action of bits so the bit he has in at the moment has the centre revolver in and he is happy! and in answer to your questions yes i have tried him with no martingale, a flash/cavesson noseband (not all at the same time) and its obvious he isnt happy. the combination i have him in at the moment is the happiest ive ever known him be in his head/mouth and for what its worth i barely touch his bit, he rides from my seat/voice/leg but i like to know the alternative breaking system is in place and will work should i need it, for example hacking in large groups / fast work. Hes really sharp and switched on and i know for a fact if he was in 'basic tack' (probably the wrong wording) then we could possibly have issues with both of ours safety - which isnt worth the risk imo. i have tried removing various itmes of his tack to 'check' wether its still needed.... the outcome is yes it is!
my other horse is ridden in nothing more than a simple snaffle and cavesson noseband....

horses for courses i think :)



rockchick PLEASE don't explain yourself. You don't need to. You came on here to tell us that you and your horse are happy and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.


I'm afraid with the posters who you are up against, all you will do is give them more evidence to tell you how useless you are and how absolutely perfect they are.

Forget them, go ride your happy horse :)
 

Nightmare before Christmas

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rockchick PLEASE don't explain yourself. You don't need to. You came on here to tell us that you and your horse are happy and THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.


I'm afraid with the posters who you are up against, all you will do is give them more evidence to tell you how useless you are and how absolutely perfect they are.

Forget them, go ride your happy horse :)

agreed
 

putasocinit

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When horse wants to go faster sit deeper in your seat and squeeze your bum, reins are there for direction and the bit is something for the reins to be attached to. If you lean forward your horse will go faster so sit up straight and think your belly button is your eye stick it out, then you will sit deeper in your saddle.
 
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