Oh Honestly

[Scarlett]

Don't worry about all these hugely knowledgale people Rockchick. If you are happy and he is happy that really is all that matters.

Some of this stuff has so made me laugh. Your bit is "already on it's strongest setting", errr, yes a 2 ring gag on the lower ring is about the same as a dressage legal Baucher/hanging cheek snaffle.

Sorry but thats completely wrong. A hanging cheek/baucher exerts no poll pressure at all when the reins are pulled. The top rings serve only to hold the bit up and still in the mouth, while a 2 ring gag on the bottom ring exerts poll pressure as when the reins are pulled the bit pivots round the mouthpiece (fulcrum) and the top ring then pulls down on the cheekpieces and thus the poll. There is a big difference in the action of both bits. The gag also serves to increase the amount of pressure that is felt by the horse when the rider pulls on the reins, I believe most gags will increase the pressure 5 fold, so if you pull back on the rein with 5lb of pressure the horse will feel 25lb due to the design of the bit, thats what makes them stronger. A hanging cheek/baucher does not increase the pressure felt by the horse. There is a better explaination online somewhere - I will try to find a link.

To think a horse will stop in a gag with a gentle pull is misleading, the gag amplifys the pressure put on the rein and that gentle pull to us is still a strong pull to them. The gag makes things easier for us but not any nicer for our horses. IMO no-one should use anything other than a snaffle without understanding the effect on the horse and how much force it applies and where - stronger bits are all fine and well but you must understand what the horse feels when you pull on the rein and how the bit works in conjunction with your other tack. A gag, grackle and martingale can all work against each other, incraesed pressure on the bit from the reins is felt on the bars of the mouth and tongue, horse tries to open mouth to evade pressure but mouth is strapped shut and when it lifts its head the martingale adds more pressure which is again amplified by the bit being a gag.... I'm no hippy and have nothing against strong bits and other equipment but thats one hell of a combination.

 

[SpottedCat]

How about you learn to slow down/stop him using your SEAT and not rely on your reins?

If he was well schooled you wouldn't need all those gadgets as he would respond to the rider's seat.

Lots of transitions needed with him I would think to get him listening to the rider and turn your core muscles on when doing it to stop him ploughing forward and pulling you off your seat which will just result on him ploughing along on the forehand, which may be what he is doing also resulting in him feeling 'strong'

I guess the same applies to all the eventers at the Olympics who went XC in anything other than a snaffle and a cavesson? If only they would actually spend some time learning to ride and school their horses, they wouldn't need the pelhams and gags and grackles

 

[cptrayes]

Guys you are missing the point. This girl posted because she and her horse are perfectly happy. How about you go find someone who actually asked for your advice!

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry but thats completely wrong. A hanging cheek/baucher exerts no poll pressure at all when the reins are pulled..

You can't be serious? Have you ever actually WATCHED one in use? The top piece swings forwards, shortening the cheek piece, and applying poll pressure.


EVERY bit which is attached to the cheek piece at a fixed point, with a fixed moutpiece, will apply some level of poll pressure when the rein is activated. This is why simple snaffles with cheek piece holders are not allowed in dressage.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I guess the same applies to all the eventers at the Olympics who went XC in anything other than a snaffle and a cavesson? If only they would actually spend some time learning to ride and school their horses, they wouldn't need the pelhams and gags and grackles

I was refering to flatwork, not jumping??

I have no problem with pelhams gags, grackles or any other type of tack IF it's needed. I just don't think a martingale, gag and grackle is needed on the flat if the horse is 'well schooled' like the OP stated.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I was informed i was cruel the other day because 1 of my cobs is ridden in a 2 ring gag (on the bottom ring) a grackle noseband and a martingale!

I could ride him in just a normal cavesson noseband, no martingale and a snaffle.... IF i wanted to constantly have to pull on his mouth and hold him in a vice like grip and go no faster than walk...

however in his current tack i can stop/slow down in any pace merely by closing my fingers round the reins and giving a gentle squeeze!

i know which i'd prefer!

I am cruel also then....

 

[Pale Rider]

I guess the same applies to all the eventers at the Olympics who went XC in anything other than a snaffle and a cavesson? If only they would actually spend some time learning to ride and school their horses, they wouldn't need the pelhams and gags and grackles

Spot on

 

[Pale Rider]

It's not about being cruel.

It's about confidence, you and the horse and training.

Think about what your saying 'I can't stop my own horse without a massive amount of force.'

Is that good, no it bloody well isn't.

 

[Hackie]

Guys you are missing the point. This girl posted because she and her horse are perfectly happy. How about you go find someone who actually asked for your advice!

Yes, but she's come on a public forum to defend what I (and many others) would consider to be a really strong combination of bit and artifial aids, that she says that she uses to control her horse that she then describes as well schooled. I'd expect advice if I posted something like that...

FWIW I've rarely come across a horse that I would call well schooled that is unable to work nicely in a snaffle, with no need for any other artificial aids.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I am cruel also then....

What a handsome chap.

Have to agree with CPT on this one. I like my lot in a snaffle and no nose band, but its not right for every horse and every situation.

 

[SpottedCat]

Spot on

I'd love to think you were joking, but I've read enough to know you're not.

Any chance of some evidence of you having trained multiple horses to be competitive at 4* XC without anything more than a snaffle and a cavesson being used?

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

It's not about being cruel.

It's about confidence, you and the horse and training.

Think about what your saying 'I can't stop my own horse without a massive amount of force.'

Is that good, no it bloody well isn't.

I dont need force. I dont even do anything to stop. She just goes better in this. To be fair this was a couple of years ago she now goes in a D-ring snaffle and a rope noseband. She goes the same in what shes in now as how she went in the gag and grackle but back then she wouldnt have gone in a snaffle as she was soft in the mouth (not strong) but still used to get faster and faster. In the gag she held herself and was responsive

 

[ImmyS]

I'd love to think you were joking, but I've read enough to know you're not.

Any chance of some evidence of you having trained multiple horses to be competitive at 4* XC without anything more than a snaffle and a cavesson being used?

How about without a bit at all?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM

 

[SpottedCat]

I was refering to flatwork, not jumping??

I have no problem with pelhams gags, grackles or any other type of tack IF it's needed. I just don't think a martingale, gag and grackle is needed on the flat if the horse is 'well schooled' like the OP stated.

Well the OP didn't mention which they were using the set up for at all, so it seems a bit harsh to suggest that a) they were relying on the reins and needed to learn to use their seat and that b) their horse wasn't well schooled. Perhaps they use it for hunting and jumping but do flatwork in another setup entirely.

But then I guess I would say that since despite my eventer having led the dressage several times this year, including with scores in the 20s, and him being entirely able to be ridden off seat aids to slow/stop, you did still need something stronger for XC/jumping. I used a pelham and a grackle, the 3* rider who had him used a Cheltenham gag as she felt he didn't respond well enough to the pelham.

 

[Pale Rider]

I'd love to think you were joking, but I've read enough to know you're not.

Any chance of some evidence of you having trained multiple horses to be competitive at 4* XC without anything more than a snaffle and a cavesson being used?

Nope, lol

This costs real money.

 

[Hackie]

Well the OP didn't mention which they were using the set up for at all, so it seems a bit harsh to suggest that a) they were relying on the reins and needed to learn to use their seat and that b) their horse wasn't well schooled. Perhaps they use it for hunting and jumping but do flatwork in another setup entirely.

But then I guess I would say that since despite my eventer having led the dressage several times this year, including with scores in the 20s, and him being entirely able to be ridden off seat aids to slow/stop, you did still need something stronger for XC/jumping. I used a pelham and a grackle, the 3* rider who had him used a Cheltenham gag as she felt he didn't respond well enough to the pelham.

It doesn't sound like the OP is using these bits to get her around a jumping course or anything particularly advanced, it seems like she is using them for basic control issues...

without the martingale his head goes sky high... mainly when he wants to do something that i dont want him to /QUOTE]

ETA Quote fail!!

 

[ladyt25]

Do you remember the dressage at the Olympic's? When it was all over Charlotte rode around on a loose rein waving at the crowd on a relaxed chilled out well rounded horse. Adeline Cornelissen on the other hand, and she'd just taken a silver. You would hardly want to ride that horse anywhere. You don't want frenzied jumping rounds, where you've got more tie down crap on the horse, because you are hanging on and not properly controlling whats going on. If the horse is to jump a fence then it jumps it because it can and you asked it too.

I don't know as I didn't watch it - did Charlotte RIDE the test in a simple snaffle or indeed a bitless bridle? From what I see in dressage, they usually have double bridles. Surely, with the amount of schooling these top riders do they should just be able to ride the horse using only their seat from what you seem to suggest?

I don't actually think the grakle/martingale combo does much in the OPs post and she should maybe consider switching to a flash/cavesson and standing martiogale and see what the effect is. Then there are no 'conflicting messages' to be concerned about.

For what i'ts worth, I would quite happily ride my horse round and enclosed arena with no bridle, or indeed any tack on. Would I hack on the roads or compete xc/showjumping without the adequate controls? No, I wouldn't. We're talking half a tonne of horse and, at the end of the day if it does take off, could I rely on "using my seat" to stop him? I very much doubt it. Not all of us have the facilities or indeed the time to school horses to perfection and, quite frankly even the most perfectly schooled horse is still an unpredictable animal at the end of the day.

 

[Farma]

I dont think there are many horses that can't be schooled to go well in a snaffle, no martingale combo etc by an experienced rider in normal circumstances but once you get them out jumping especially xc or hunting you can see a whole new side to a horse and you really need the brakes to get you and the horse out of trouble, so if a stronger bit and martingale is needed I am all for it but for that situation only not for every day schooling.

Also whoever mentioned that a hanging cheek exerts poll pressure I really cant see how?

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I don't know as I didn't watch it - did Charlotte RIDE the test in a simple snaffle or indeed a bitless bridle? From what I see in dressage, they usually have double bridles. Surely, with the amount of schooling these top riders do they should just be able to ride the horse using only their seat from what you seem to suggest?

I don't actually think the grakle/martingale combo does much in the OPs post and she should maybe consider switching to a flash/cavesson and standing martiogale and see what the effect is. Then there are no 'conflicting messages' to be concerned about.

For what i'ts worth, I would quite happily ride my horse round and enclosed arena with no bridle, or indeed any tack on. Would I hack on the roads or compete xc/showjumping without the adequate controls? No, I wouldn't. We're talking half a tonne of horse and, at the end of the day if it does take off, could I rely on "using my seat" to stop him? I very much doubt it. Not all of us have the facilities or indeed the time to school horses to perfection and, quite frankly even the most perfectly schooled horse is still an unpredictable animal at the end of the day.

The horses are schooled to be hightly responsive to both bits for different levels of communication - not because they cannot control their horses. Its different

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Well the OP didn't mention which they were using the set up for at all, so it seems a bit harsh to suggest that a) they were relying on the reins and needed to learn to use their seat and that b) their horse wasn't well schooled. Perhaps they use it for hunting and jumping but do flatwork in another setup entirely.

But then I guess I would say that since despite my eventer having led the dressage several times this year, including with scores in the 20s, and him being entirely able to be ridden off seat aids to slow/stop, you did still need something stronger for XC/jumping. I used a pelham and a grackle, the 3* rider who had him used a Cheltenham gag as she felt he didn't respond well enough to the pelham.

Well then perhaps they should've specified in what scenario they are using the set up for?! If it is to hurtle round a XC or a course of SJ some people on the thread may not have reacted in the way they did.

Your replies make it seem that you've assumed they're using it for Hunting, XC or SJing. Perhaps they are but perhaps they're not.

At the end of the day it's noone elses business what tack OP chooses to put her horse in. However if I didn't want these type of replies I definitely wouldn't have posted this type of thread.

 

[cptrayes]

Do you remember the dressage at the Olympic's? When it was all over Charlotte rode around on a loose rein waving at the crowd on a relaxed chilled out well rounded horse. Adeline Cornelissen on the other hand, and she'd just taken a silver. You would hardly want to ride that horse anywhere. .

PR two horses is not a statistically significant sample, you know?

We dont know (but I think we can guess) the relative calmness of those two horses in their general demeanour. All horses are different.

If that example demonstates anything it demonstrates how utterly ridiculous it is for you to say that every single horse can be trained so that it never needs a bit in its mouth for any discipline.

 

[SpottedCat]

How about without a bit at all?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM

How odd, that doesn't look like Badminton, Burghley, Kentucky, Luhmuhlen, Adelaide, Pau *or* the Olympics. And it's one horse. Plus she has a bridle on, which is pretty much cheating if you want to play that game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEfm606tDZ8


I wasn't suggesting you need a bit to jump or go XC or in fact do anything with a horse, I was merely making the point that to say it's a lack of riding ability or a lack of schooling which means horses can't do everything in a snaffle and cavesson is faintly ridiculous, because the logical conclusion to that argument is that the event riders at the Olympics can't ride very well and don't bother schooling their horses. Which is clearly nonsense.

 

[cptrayes]

Well then perhaps they should've specified in what scenario they are using the set up for?!

Why should she? She didn't ask for advice!

If you choose to give it, don't criticise her for giving you inadequate information!!!

 

[SpottedCat]

Well then perhaps they should've specified in what scenario they are using the set up for?! If it is to hurtle round a XC or a course of SJ some people on the thread may not have reacted in the way they did.

Your replies make it seem that you've assumed they're using it for Hunting, XC or SJing. Perhaps they are but perhaps they're not.

At the end of the day it's noone elses business what tack OP chooses to put her horse in. However if I didn't want these type of replies I definitely wouldn't have posted this type of thread.

I wasn't replying to the OP. I was replying to you telling them to go and learn to ride, which I thought was pretty harsh considering that they may be able to ride a darn sight better than you or I ever will, and that they may be using the tack entirely appropriately. After all, they didn't post saying 'what does everyone think of my tack' they posted saying 'I use this, it works really well on my horse, aren't people silly for giving me grief about it'.

 

[SpottedCat]

Why should she? She didn't ask for advice!

If you choose to give it, don't criticise her for giving you inadequate information!!!

 

[*Maddy&Occhi*]

OP its crazy how some peoples minds work. Everything that doesn't look 'natural' is seen as cruel by some people. They seem to forget its not natural to ride horses in the first place.

Totally agree! ... OP you know what works best for you and your horse so ignore nosey irritants! ...one of my pet hates is "un-wanted" comments/ advice from people who should be focussing on their own horses!

 

[Lolo]

I don't get the 'ride in a headcollar' thing. My sister and I would happily ride our ponies bareback, with just a headcollar on them. We'd canter them and mess about and wouldn't need any more than our voice and seat to steady them up. For dressage, they went nicely in a plain snaffle. Put a fence in front of them, and you could "woaahhhh" until you lost your voice, as there was no way they were listening to you!

Henry went XC in a cheltenham gag, running martingale (unorthodox, but worked better than the standing) and a Mexican grakle. With that combo, my sister and him were a happy combination. He was an utter tank of a pony and knew to get his own way he could just use his weight against you. The combination of the above, along with a very determined jockey and a lot of schooling kept him somewhat in line!

 

[monkeybum13]

I have to laugh when people go on about Charlotte using a snaffle, if you were in 'the know' you would know a completely different story!

 

[TheoryX1]

I think we need to realise sometimes that life is not all perfect and that sometimes we need to do things which work for us. For example I ride in a pelham with d rings and a crank noseband. Have a strong little sod and it works for us.

 

[tinap]

Bloomin heck there are some people up their own backsides!!!

The op didn't ask for advice in changing tack, she merely had a moan about people interfering!! (& we've all done a moany post at some time!) She & horse are happy in their tack. We are not all blessed with perfectly schooled horses that wear a snaffle all the time, nor are we all able to remedy stronger horses & ditch the stronger tack.