Oh Honestly

[cptrayes]

Second time I've agreed with you in as many days

Serious problem It must be because I'm ill

You been on the sherry CPT?

Can't stand the stuff PR. Much like I feel about the advice you give generalising about how simple it is to train every horse in the universe. It don't think it helps anyone, and it is calculated only to make those of less robust temperaments feel like failures.

 

[Lady La La]

Can't stand the stuff PR. Much like I feel about the advice you give generalising about how simple it is to train every horse in the universe. It don't think it helps anyone, and it is calculated only to make those of less robust temperaments feel like failures.

Three times now

*Has a little sit down*

 

[Tnavas]

You can't be serious? Have you ever actually WATCHED one in use? The top piece swings forwards, shortening the cheek piece, and applying poll pressure.

EVERY bit which is attached to the cheek piece at a fixed point, with a fixed moutpiece, will apply some level of poll pressure when the rein is activated. This is why simple snaffles with cheek piece holders are not allowed in dressage.

You need to watch the action of the bit at the mouth end too! - I have actually watched one very carefully along with the class of B certificate riders I was teaching - studying bits and their action - we got the rider in halt to use her reins and though the top of the bit tilts, the backward and upward effect of the reins lifts the bit upwards in the mouth and the cheek pieces go saggy - this is why you need the curbchain to get poll pressure - to hold the bit down in the mouth so that when the bit tilts the whole thing tightens.

And a Baucher is dressage legal! It's action is the same as Fulmer (with keepers) without the stearing assistance of the long cheeks

 

[Pale Rider]

Serious problem It must be because I'm ill






Can't stand the stuff PR. Much like I feel about the advice you give generalising about how simple it is to train every horse in the universe. It don't think it helps anyone, and it is calculated only to make those of less robust temperaments feel like failures.

Don't fret CP, it's not rocket science. Certainly not calculated, I feel it would be pretty difficult to convince you you're a failure.

 

[misskerry]

Not all horses like snaffles or riding around in headcollors all horses are different... Some horses dont mind the poll action some horses hate it. Some horses dont mind the nut Cracker action of a snaffle others hate it...
I have a perfectly good cob who I ride around with a head collor and lead rope at home. I can school him in a snaffle and make him stop with a smiple whoo and leaning back just a little.. AT HOME.. But out hunting when other things are happening he wears a 3 ring happy mouth snaffle and a martingale.. He is strong out hunting so I have that set up just to make extra sure he is listening. Like a child when something exiting is goin on they forget to listen. And I like the fact that he get excited it means he is looking forward to it..
I think as long as OP horse is well looked after and happy in his home thats all that matters.. If the horse was starving and his mouth was bleeding non stop it would be a different story..

 

[Maisy]

My horse isn't particularly well schooled....partly because I don't have a school at my disposal and partly because I don't really enjoy it all that much. However, when I do have lessons on him (which I do because he is 5 and I think its important), he is exceptionally responsive to my seat.....I literally have to think about slowing down and he has done it.....

However, day to day, out hacking, when he has got the wind up his tail, I have been known to stand in my stirrups and pull (and release ;-) ) to get him under control....

Granted, he isn't in a strong bit, (we alternate between a NS loose ring, NS hanging cheek and a french link), basically because I actually think it would make very little difference when his adrenaline kicks in and I *can* stop him with a bit of brute force.....

I don't worry that he isn't well schooled enough.....quite honestly I am glad that he can enjoy himself and have a blast occasionally! If I couldn't get him back under control, I would change to a different bit, and if needed, I'd bung a martingale on too...I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be giving me their opinions on the whys and wherefores about my tack choices.....



ETA There is no f'ing way you'd catch me getting on him with just a headcollar!!!!

 

[Tnavas]

Well there's this one, which isn't a snaffle: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/19153700

And this isn't a snaffle either: http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/21671/images/Tim Stockdale 2.jpg

And this definitely isn't a snaffle (scroll down): http://www.zubin-r.com/ben-maher/

The first two are pelhams with just one rein on the curb!

 

[lastchancer]

I'm surprised some of you manage to type with your heads so far up your own backsides

Well thats the best thing I've read this week

Just very quickly skimmed this thread, I'll have a proper look later when I'm at work(!)

OP yes you are appallingly cruel, but not as cruel as me, I ride my horse in a pelham...Shock, Horror:0 Send for WHW at once.

 

[cptrayes]

You need to watch the action of the bit at the mouth end too! - I have actually watched one very carefully along with the class of B certificate riders I was teaching - studying bits and their action - we got the rider in halt to use her reins and though the top of the bit tilts, the backward and upward effect of the reins lifts the bit upwards in the mouth and the cheek pieces go saggy - this is why you need the curbchain to get poll pressure - to hold the bit down in the mouth so that when the bit tilts the whole thing tightens.

And a Baucher is dressage legal! It's action is the same as Fulmer (with keepers) without the stearing assistance of the long cheeks

This is straightforward physics.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

As soon as that bit tilts, it is applying an equal pressure to the poll as it is to the horse's mouth. And the amount of that pressure will depend both on the hand and on how high the bit is placed in the mouth (how much slack there is room to be made).

The only time a baucher/hanging cheek will not apply any poll pressure is if the cheekpiece of the bridle and the rein is at exactly 90 degrees.

 

[Tnavas]

This is straightforward physics.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

As soon as that bit tilts, it is applying an equal pressure to the poll as it is to the horse's mouth. And the amount of that pressure will depend both on the hand and on how high the bit is placed in the mouth (how much slack there is room to be made).

The only time a baucher/hanging cheek will not apply any poll pressure is if the cheekpiece of the bridle and the rein is at exactly 90 degrees.

The physics as you describe will only work when the bit is forcibly held down in the mouth by the curb chain. as in a Pelham

With a Baucher - the mouthpiece is upwardly mobile (there is nothing to hold it down in the mouth) The bit moves upwards with the action of the riders reins. The rein is at the same level as the mouthpiece and so has no leverage.

I will have to go and tack up the horse and take photos!
We physically proved this at Pony Club the other night!

 

[Goldenstar]

The physics as you describe will only work when the bit is forcibly held down in the mouth by the curb chain. as in a Pelham

With a Baucher - the mouthpiece is upwardly mobile (there is nothing to hold it down in the mouth) The bit moves upwards with the action of the riders reins. The rein is at the same level as the mouthpiece and so has no leverage.

I will have to go and tack up the horse and take photos!
We physically proved this at Pony Club the other night!

I agree with you there's negligible poll pressure n a baucher.

 

[dressedkez]

I get the gag - I get the martingale - I might use both in the hunting field - but not out hacking.......schooling dear Liza.........

 

[cptrayes]

The physics as you describe will only work when the bit is forcibly held down in the mouth by the curb chain. as in a Pelham

With a Baucher - the mouthpiece is upwardly mobile (there is nothing to hold it down in the mouth) The bit moves upwards with the action of the riders reins. The rein is at the same level as the mouthpiece and so has no leverage.

I will have to go and tack up the horse and take photos!
We physically proved this at Pony Club the other night!

That is not correct. The laws of physics demands an equal and opposite reaction on the other end of the mouth - the poll.

Photos will not tell you pressure at the poll. Pressure at the poll will be similar to the pressure lifting the bit in the horse's mouth, and there must be some otherwise it would not lift.

This is basic physics. The universe would fall apart if I was not right

 

[Tnavas]

That is not correct. The laws of physics demands an equal and opposite reaction on the other end of the mouth - the poll.

Photos will not tell you pressure at the poll. Pressure at the poll will be similar to the pressure lifting the bit in the horse's mouth, and there must be some otherwise it would not lift.

This is basic physics. The universe would fall apart if I was not right

Photos will show that when the reins are used the cheek pieces of the bridle go slack - therefore there cannot be any poll pressure other than the weight of the headpiece.

 

[cptrayes]

Photos will show that when the reins are used the cheek pieces of the bridle go slack - therefore there cannot be any poll pressure other than the weight of the headpiece.

That depends entirely on how high the bit is fitted. I think you may also be concluding that "going slack" where the pressure would be released, is the same as "going forwards" where it would not. Whatever, your assertion that a hanging cheek snaffle can give no poll pressure without a curb is incorrect. All manner of gags and pelhams and bits with shanks can give poll pressure without a curb chain on.

 

[Ibblebibble]

FGS people, 134 posts and not a single one of you has asked if it's had it's back, sack and crack done, oops i mean back, teeth and tack

 

[Tnavas]

FGS people, 134 posts and not a single one of you has asked if it's had it's back, sack and crack done, oops i mean back, teeth and tack

you are being very wicked!!

 

[Annette4]

It's ok.....I'll post a pic of me on unbroken 4yo.....no hat, just a headcollar and in the dark.....it will distract them all! (yes I did this tonight )

 

[Tnavas]

That depends entirely on how high the bit is fitted. I think you may also be concluding that "going slack" where the pressure would be released, is the same as "going forwards" where it would not. Whatever, your assertion that a hanging cheek snaffle can give no poll pressure without a curb is incorrect. All manner of gags and pelhams and bits with shanks can give poll pressure without a curb chain on.

I am hoping that the bit will have been correctly fitted and No I'm not

Lets go through this step by step!

Rider uses reins - as the rider is above the line of the bit - the immediate action of the bit is to move UPWARDS and BACK.

As the rider applies the rein the bit moves UPWARDS in the horses mouth

At the same time the cheek of the bit moves UPWARDS and FORWARDS

As the bit moves UPWARDS and FORWARDS the cheek pieces go slack.

There is no shank on a Baucher - the rein is attached on a ring level with the mouth - therefore there can be no leverage.

We can agree to disagree but I really think you need to go out to the horse and carefully study the action.

This applies to Dutch Gags too - there is no poll pressure as the bit moves up in the mouth - if there was then all horses wearing a Dutch gag would drop their heads - and they don't which is why many of them wear running martingales as well!

 

[charlie76]

I don't think the op is cruel for her choice tack, i would rather see a rider ask once in a stronger bit than haul teeth out in a baffle! Of course, in an ideal world we would like the horse immaculately schooled but sadly some horses just havent read the right manual, they have ideas of their own! For what its worth, my own horse I can really stop on ky seat. I haven't tried in a headcollar as wouldn't risk it however, he is 18hh, very fit dressage warmblood who is. Working at a fairly decent level (changes etc) and I can control him with ease in a straight bar rubber bit whether in the school or out hacking, even in his fast work. He responds to the lightest of aids.

 

[smellsofhorse]

Id be looking at why the horse put his head up so high.

Is there a back issue?
Teeth?

Does horse need to go back to basics with schooling etc?

 

[FfionWinnie]

Get a physio and feed it micronised linseed. You'll be sorted.


Oh what's that you say, you weren't looking for advice...ah!

 

[maisie06]

If it ain't broke don't fix it!! Do what works for you and your horse. I has a mare years ago who was ridden in a Swales pelham with a kineton noseband or you had no brakes at all!!

 

[millitiger]

This is basic physics. The universe would fall apart if I was not right

So it's your fault the world is going to end on the 21st??

Hanging cheek bits create no poll pressure and yes, it is basic science.

Can't be bothered to go through it all (again ) but if you read this thread other people explain it with less words than I would use

www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=280307&page=2

 

[Rockchick]

FGS people, 134 posts and not a single one of you has asked if it's had it's back, sack and crack done, oops i mean back, teeth and tack

^back, tack and teeth checked at least every 6 months

 

[Kat]

I don't think the op is cruel for her choice tack, i would rather see a rider ask once in a stronger bit than haul teeth out in a baffle! Of course, in an ideal world we would like the horse immaculately schooled but sadly some horses just havent read the right manual, they have ideas of their own! For what its worth, my own horse I can really stop on ky seat. I haven't tried in a headcollar as wouldn't risk it however, he is 18hh, very fit dressage warmblood who is. Working at a fairly decent level (changes etc) and I can control him with ease in a straight bar rubber bit whether in the school or out hacking, even in his fast work. He responds to the lightest of aids.

Sorry Charlie76 your spell check has made your post very entertaining, love the idea of a baffle bit, but I'm not sure KY Seats will catch on with saddle manufacturers, sound a bit slippery to me!

 

[mcnaughty]

Get a physio and feed it micronised linseed. You'll be sorted.

What on earth has linseed got to do with good schooling?

Is this now the test of how good a horse is?!

LOL - yea, if you cannot ride your horse in a headcollar you may as well give up ...

OP, I have a ID x cob mare who can be very strong too. I have tried a whole load of different bits including the gag you describe and have found that if I want to hack/hunt this works well but have you tried a more simple snaffle with a market harborough. It was recommended to me by a top level show producer and have found that it really does help - you cannot jump in it though!! Also I would not put a martingale on anything with a gag or curb action unless you have two reins and you attach the martingale to the "snaffle" rein. Perhaps a standing martingale for jumping would be better. Best of luck.

 

[Amaranta]

Sounds like a really well trained little fellow, lol.

You know, for once PL, I totally agree with you

 

[AbFab]

So *that's* where I've been going wrong in my dressage. Why have I been paying money to trainers?! It's a bit of Brian Cox I need shouting instructions from the sidelines!

 

[Patterdale]

I have a cavesson bridle and nathe snaffle and I'm yet to find a horse I can't hunt and take XC in this set up. But then maybe ive just been lucky.....