ok really stupid question r.e shoes vs barefoot

[cptrayes]

So the 'transition' to barefoot when the horse is frequently sore is not suffering?

The horse should be kept to surfaces where it is not sore. Suffering is not acceptable, nor necessary.

You have posted about restricted turnout times, making your horses wear muzzles etc - all so that you can 'go barefoot'. Not very natural for the horse - more about you following your ideals.

Do you think restricted turnout and muzzles are unique to barefoot horses? I do it to stop the bugs that are poisoning my horses systems from poisoning them. I know they are there because they go footie. Putting shoes on won't take those bugs away. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that I should shoe my horses so that they can continue to be sick?

So you would shoe and stud correctly for XC then?

No, I'd do THIS:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SKsobjsaQpI/AAAAAAAAAU4/Qo7zu6lPsBU/s1600-h/george080110-2.jpg

Take a good look at the landing surface. I have plenty of other pictures of five different horses on every type of going conceivable if you have any doubts about eventing barefoot.

 

[Ladylina83]

Sorry guys I don't know why you are bothering (I gave up about post 5 on the 1st page) She's not interested in learning, she is just going to stick shoes on it end of:-(

 

[cptrayes]

This isn't the OP arguing, and other people read these threads and get good information from them. Besides, I'm babysitting an invalid and I have nothing better to do

 

[Ladylina83]

This isn't the OP arguing, and other people read these threads and get good information from them. Besides, I'm babysitting an invalid and I have nothing better to do

I know, and you always give really good solid advice ,but theres only so many times I can bear to read - My horse is out at grass full time 24/7 and can feel it's feet on stones so I think a full set is best .... why ask the question ? It's almost trollish when you know folk are so passionate about the topic

Sorry

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I know, and you always give really good solid advice ,but theres only so many times I can bear to read - My horse is out at grass full time 24/7 and can feel it's feet on stones so I think a full set is best .... why ask the question ? It's almost trollish when you know folk are so passionate about the topic

Sorry

That's a bit harsh. Most horse owners try to do the best for their horses. Sometimes there are good logical reasons as to why they come to the conclusions that they do. It can be very helpful to post a question on the forum to get other opinions but whatever they decide, they will not please everyone.

 

[cptrayes]

I know the trolls are there, but I also know that there are at least two horses alive and working now because I keep on answering these eejits and people who do want to know, but are afraid to comment, read them because they keep popping up in "new posts". So at the risk of boring others, I just keep going!

 

[tallyho!]

Ypou can't have it both ways - ie claiming it's not natural for a horse to wear shoes, and yet stabling them and restricting them (far more than my shod horses are) from grazing through the daytime? My shod horses, btw, are out 24/7, except in the worst of weather, and when they choose to let themselves stand inside in the shade of the barn.

The ideal is that the horse is as happy and comfortable as we can make him because we have domesticated him.
It's a spurious and ridiculous comment to say that the ideal is the horse running wild when we both know that doesn't and couldn't happen in the current world.
ETA, except in the case of the New Forest ponies, Welshies and the Dartmoors,and that's not going well, is it?

Did I say the sliding boot caused soft tissue to fall off? If you want to question my post, at least read what I've written.

Yes, I wear shoes, but then I'm human. And if your argument is failing to the extent that you have to compare a biped with a quadruped then you are seriously struggling..........

I did read it properly thank you and you were suggesting that boots compromises soft tissue when worn instead of shoes - i.e. damaging it so I exaggerated it just a little - ony a little because what you were saying was ridiculous enough. Don't try and change it.

Good for you that your horses are healthy and happy. Long may it continue.

I AM having it both ways... I do not shoe anymore and I turn out 24/7. According to your ideal standards... I have only gone and achieved it. Hoorah. You putting people down who have already consciously made an educated decision is spurious and ridiculous. What are your bases for this argument?

 

[Changes]

The horse should be kept to surfaces where it is not sore. Suffering is not acceptable, nor necessary.

If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?

Do you think restricted turnout and muzzles are unique to barefoot horses? I do it to stop the bugs that are poisoning my horses systems from poisoning them. I know they are there because they go footie. Putting shoes on won't take those bugs away. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that I should shoe my horses so that they can continue to be sick?

Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part.

As for the second part, have you any idea how much nonsense that sounds?

No, I'd do THIS:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SKsobjsaQpI/AAAAAAAAAU4/Qo7zu6lPsBU/s1600-h/george080110-2.jpg

Take a good look at the landing surface. I have plenty of other pictures of five different horses on every type of going conceivable if you have any doubts about eventing barefoot.

And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface.
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.

 

[tallyho!]

If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?





Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part.

As for the second part, have you any idea how much nonsense that sounds?



And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface.
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.

LOL - what????? You should go and get some facts down on paper and then come back and argue...

 

[Changes]

I did read it properly thank you and you were suggesting that boots compromises soft tissue when worn instead of shoes - i.e. damaging it so I exaggerated it just a little - ony a little because what you were saying was ridiculous enough. Don't try and change it.

So you admit to 'exaggerating' what I said, and then tell me to not try and change it? Don't put words in my mouth and then accuse me of being ridiculous about something I didn't say. Boots can cause soft tissue injury when thew move if the horse is going at any speed- they are not secure enough to guarantee not to move. Unless of course you just walk?

I AM having it both ways... I do not shoe anymore and I turn out 24/7. According to your ideal standards... I have only gone and achieved it. Hoorah. You putting people down who have already consciously made an educated decision is spurious and ridiculous. What are your bases for this argument?

Erm - you jumped on a reply I made to someone who didn't turn out 24/7, so that wasn't directed at you? What is my basis for what argument? You seem to be randomly answering posts selectively.
As far as ideal goes, I said:

The ideal is that the horse is as happy and comfortable as we can make him because we have domesticated him.

My horses are happy shod - you say yours are happy unshod - so what exactly is your problem? You guys are the ones saying that all horses should be barefoot, I'm saying some horses need shoes, and to compete at any significant level on grass, not a surface, horses need to be studded.
Other than that, as long as the feet cope with the workload and the horse is not footy without shoes I couldn't care less what you do.

 

[Changes]

LOL - what????? You should go and get some facts down on paper and then come back and argue...

Too impatient to wait for me to reply to you? Frankly, it would be a waste of time writing facts for you, you've already admitted to changing what I write.

 

[maggiesmum]

changes - you mention suffering so help me out here I had a TB diagnosed with navicular I researched and saw 2 options, I could have remedial shoes fitted and treat him with a whole host of drugs and there was a chance he'd be sound enough to be a hack OR I could try this 'new fangled' barefoot thing that seemed to be having a pretty good success rate? So thinks me, I can always re-shoe him if it doesn't work.

Yes he went through a transitioning period where he was footy while we worked on getting his diet right for him - it was at this point we discovered he was very prone to laminitis and that shoes had been masking the subtle signs for years - hence he'd been branded, nuts, bad tempered, dangerous etc etc no he'd just been in pain and bloody miserable!

So nowadays he's sound and in work and actually pretty nice to be around without his shoes, and this is the bit i'd be interested to hear your opinion on - was I wrong to put him through a period of being uncomfortable to get him sound?
should I not restrict his grazing and allow him to be in pain?
Exactly what other management options does he have?
Its all very well to say if they need shoes put them on - but why on earth would I put on the very thing that made him lame in the first place? To mask the early warning signs of LGL so I can pretend it doesn't exist?

For him there is no other option save a bullet, now i'm no softy and have no problem making the decision to PTS if and when necessary, but with a few management tweaks he's fine so why would I do anything else?

 

[AngieandBen]

Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod?

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots; We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted.

 

[cptrayes]

If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?

I am pushing no-one. No-one on this thread has been pushing anyone. If they do not have the facitilies of a soft grass field and a stable with a bed and their horse is sore (many never are, showing just how many horses wear shoes for absolutely no reason) then they should keep their horse shod.

Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part.

I do not advocate everything natural for a horse. I have never said anything about wild horses. I just advocate barefoot for the majority of domestic horses because they simply do not need shoes.

As to stupidity, which you accuse me of, I can think of nothing more stupid that to shoe a horse to mask the signs of early laminitis, leaving the bugs that cause it in the horse's bloodstream to cause the temperament, liver and itchy skin issues which are so rife in spring and summer. Do you realise that many cases of sweetitch can be completely cured by restricting the horse's access to grass? Does this not suggest to you that such restriction is far from the dreadful thing you make it out to be, but a matter of the health of the horse, since the sweetitch is resulting from a poorly functioning liver?

And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface.
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.

You asked me what I would do and I showed you. Studs are not "necessary" for any discipline. I have done them all barefoot. No hunter jumping 6ft hedges has studs and yet every eventer arguing about barefoot says they need them to jump event fences. They may help you win, but they are not "necessary" and they put huge strain on the horses joints. You can do that to your horses if you like, I don't like.

You really are looking for a fight over this, aren't you Changes?

 

[Brambridge04]

Ok, i would like to thank you ALL for your replies.

Due to my current plans / circumstances, she will be shod, for summer, they will be off over winter regardless.

I will re-assess earlier next spring, when hacking and road work increases and ground hardens, i will attempt then to see if she can be accustomed to staying barefoot, as by the my circumstances will be different.

HOWEVER, if she shows signs of struggling, for more than what could be classed as transitioning / getting used to it etc, she will be reshod for summer.

Again, thank you for your opinions and responses.

 

[tallyho!]

Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod?

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots; We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted.

Does it bloody matter?

 

[Zuzan]

Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod?

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots; We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted.

I think it's to do with intention.. unshod is not intentional.. but simply because the horse / pony is precieved not to need shoes..

With Barefoot there is an intention to look at the hoof as fully functioning as the rest of the horse it is very much about getting the conditions and diet right and there are differences between a pasture trim as per unshod and a trim to encourage the hoof to function as well as it possibly can.

I kind of think that shoes just plaster over hooves that really aren't up to much.. just as I wouldn't want to ride with girth galls (or cause them) I wouldn't want to ride if the hoof wasn't up to work either..

 

[tallyho!]

Too impatient to wait for me to reply to you? Frankly, it would be a waste of time writing facts for you, you've already admitted to changing what I write.

Impatient? No, I had to go off and ride my unshod/barefoot horse across some fields that have just been cut for silage 'cause farmer said I could use it as a "gallop" Can't turn such offers down these days..!!!! I also had to practice couple of SJ fences as got a comp on Sun. Boy do I feel good after that

I only change what you say because what you write is a load of bullsnot and it's all the better for making sense of you dear.

 

[tallyho!]

Ok, i would like to thank you ALL for your replies.

Due to my current plans / circumstances, she will be shod, for summer, they will be off over winter regardless.

I will re-assess earlier next spring, when hacking and road work increases and ground hardens, i will attempt then to see if she can be accustomed to staying barefoot, as by the my circumstances will be different.

HOWEVER, if she shows signs of struggling, for more than what could be classed as transitioning / getting used to it etc, she will be reshod for summer.

Again, thank you for your opinions and responses.

It went off on a tangent regardless Bambridge, as is usual. Whatever, you know what is best for your horse... we're just having fun arguing about nothing...

 

[intouch]

I think it's to do with intention.. unshod is not intentional.. but simply because the horse / pony is precieved not to need shoes..

With Barefoot there is an intention to look at the hoof as fully functioning as the rest of the horse it is very much about getting the conditions and diet right and there are differences between a pasture trim as per unshod and a trim to encourage the hoof to function as well as it possibly can.

You might enjoy this -

http://thehorseshoof.com/pdf_articles/BarefootParadigm.pdf

 

[GingerCat]

I'm still undecided over the whole 'barefoot V shoes' debate as I can see valid points in both sides of the arguements.

One thing that always gets me riled though, is barefoot advocates who use the wild mustang as an example of the 'natural foot' ...yes, I can see that it is , but what on earth does a wild mustangs foot have in common with a hoof that's been trimmed by human hand?
The foot of a wild horse is shaped by it's conformation, it's way of going and the terrain that it travels over, it's not shaped by trimming.
So how can it be held up as an example of how things should be?

 

[cptrayes]

Because lots of us who are barefoot do have horses whose feet are "shaped by it's conformation, it's way of going and the terrain that it travels over, it's not shaped by trimming. "

I very rarely trim height off my horse's feet, I just smooth off sharp edges if I do anything. Hardworking baerfooters are self trimming. It a joy to see a horse produce feet which are perfectly tuned for its body and its work. Check out the blog for the rehab yard, Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com Horses there are rarely trimmed, they are given the perfect environment to trim themselves and by doing so many written off "navicular spectrum" lame horses have come sound and back into full work.

It's held up as an example, not by me by the way, because it is an ideal to aim for. Like many other ideals it is unacheivable for many people but that does not make it any less of an ideal.

 

[Changes]

I am pushing no-one. No-one on this thread has been pushing anyone. If they do not have the facitilies of a soft grass field and a stable with a bed and their horse is sore (many never are, showing just how many horses wear shoes for absolutely no reason) then they should keep their horse shod.





I do not advocate everything natural for a horse. I have never said anything about wild horses. I just advocate barefoot for the majority of domestic horses because they simply do not need shoes.

As to stupidity, which you accuse me of, I can think of nothing more stupid that to shoe a horse to mask the signs of early laminitis, leaving the bugs that cause it in the horse's bloodstream to cause the temperament, liver and itchy skin issues which are so rife in spring and summer. Do you realise that many cases of sweetitch can be completely cured by restricting the horse's access to grass? Does this not suggest to you that such restriction is far from the dreadful thing you make it out to be, but a matter of the health of the horse, since the sweetitch is resulting from a poorly functioning liver?



You asked me what I would do and I showed you. Studs are not "necessary" for any discipline. I have done them all barefoot. No hunter jumping 6ft hedges has studs and yet every eventer arguing about barefoot says they need them to jump event fences. They may help you win, but they are not "necessary" and they put huge strain on the horses joints. You can do that to your horses if you like, I don't like.

You really are looking for a fight over this, aren't you Changes?

No, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm disagreeing with you, which I am perfectly entitled to do. Jumping 6ft hedges out hunting is not comparable to eventing. The fact of you using it as a comparison shows how little you understand the needs of a decent level event horse.

I don't disagree about restricting turnout, for whatever reason for a horse's health, it's the hypocrisy of the argument for the 'natural' foot, when 'naturally' horses are not on restricted grazing with stabling. As I said, you can'y have it both ways.

As far as sweet itch goes, restricting grazing does make sense, to avoid the times of day when the midges are at their most vicious, early morning and evening. Sweet itch is an allergic reaction to the bite of the midge.

 

[Changes]

changes - you mention suffering so help me out here I had a TB diagnosed with navicular I researched and saw 2 options, I could have remedial shoes fitted and treat him with a whole host of drugs and there was a chance he'd be sound enough to be a hack OR I could try this 'new fangled' barefoot thing that seemed to be having a pretty good success rate? So thinks me, I can always re-shoe him if it doesn't work.

Yes he went through a transitioning period where he was footy while we worked on getting his diet right for him - it was at this point we discovered he was very prone to laminitis and that shoes had been masking the subtle signs for years - hence he'd been branded, nuts, bad tempered, dangerous etc etc no he'd just been in pain and bloody miserable!

So nowadays he's sound and in work and actually pretty nice to be around without his shoes, and this is the bit i'd be interested to hear your opinion on - was I wrong to put him through a period of being uncomfortable to get him sound?
should I not restrict his grazing and allow him to be in pain?
Exactly what other management options does he have?
Its all very well to say if they need shoes put them on - but why on earth would I put on the very thing that made him lame in the first place? To mask the early warning signs of LGL so I can pretend it doesn't exist?

For him there is no other option save a bullet, now i'm no softy and have no problem making the decision to PTS if and when necessary, but with a few management tweaks he's fine so why would I do anything else?

I'm not going to argue with your personal experience, because you know far more about this particular horse than I do, obviously. I don't agree with him being footy and sore when you took the shoes off. Luckily, it seems to have worked for your horse. There are a lot that it doesn't work for.
If his diet was the problem, then how is it the fault of the shoes? If a horse is sore, he's sore. Shoes won't mask laminitic pain.
If the NS is the fault of the shoes, then that is poor farriery, no more, no less.

 

[cptrayes]

No, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm disagreeing with you, which I am perfectly entitled to do. Jumping 6ft hedges out hunting is not comparable to eventing. The fact of you using it as a comparison shows how little you understand the needs of a decent level event horse.

I don't disagree about restricting turnout, for whatever reason for a horse's health, it's the hypocrisy of the argument for the 'natural' foot, when 'naturally' horses are not on restricted grazing with stabling. As I said, you can'y have it both ways.

As far as sweet itch goes, restricting grazing does make sense, to avoid the times of day when the midges are at their most vicious, early morning and evening. Sweet itch is an allergic reaction to the bite of the midge.

Oh good, you're back, what fun

I think I know exactly what the needs of a decent event horse are, and also how eventing and hunting differs.

Eventing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

Hunting:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAArU/i1ToTVuMMkk/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg


I have never advocated everything natural for a horse, there is no hypocrisy in anything that I write.

Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm not going to argue with your personal experience, because you know far more about this particular horse than I do, obviously. I don't agree with him being footy and sore when you took the shoes off. Luckily, it seems to have worked for your horse. There are a lot that it doesn't work for.
If his diet was the problem, then how is it the fault of the shoes? If a horse is sore, he's sore. Shoes won't mask laminitic pain.
If the NS is the fault of the shoes, then that is poor farriery, no more, no less.

Shoes DO mask laminitic pain. Shoeing is used as a therapeutic tool to reduce pain in critically laminitic horses and ponies. Check out the Veterinary thread for the vet Alsiola advocating their use for that very purpose. Horses with very mild laminitis causing them to be footie on gravel go sound with shoes on. That's why people shoe them.

 

[AndySpooner]

Doing something drastic like shoeing a horse, needs time to recover from if you decide to remove the shoes. Not to expect some footiness seems unreasonable to me during the transition period. This discomfort can be managed with boots and pads until it is passed, and is no reason not to go barefoot.
The very idea that short do not mask early signs of laminitis displays gross ignorance and stupidity, especially now there is so much information available.

 

[AndySpooner]

Doing something drastic like shoeing a horse, needs time to recover from if you decide to remove the shoes. Not to expect some footiness seems unreasonable to me during the transition period. This discomfort can be managed with boots and pads until it is passed, and is no reason not to go barefoot.
The very idea that shoes do not mask early signs of laminitis displays gross ignorance and stupidity, especially now there is so mu. ch information available.

 

[Tnavas]

Well something causes this Jemima !

(this horse has one shoe on - can you guess which leg ?? )

I would be concerned if I saw a thermograph with areas showing blue as this shows that the area is cold showing poor circulation!

This horse has shoes on the front - is in his early 20's is a riding school horse working at least a couple of hours daily. He has been in the school for 19yrs since coming off the race track. His lameness issues were ligament. Note the white areas (coronary band) are the same in the hind feet which have not had shoes on for 19yrs.

Apart from my youngsters all my horses have been shod, all have had excellent feet - lovely shape, well defined frogs no lameness bar an abscess or two over 40+years. None had contracted heels, I had an excellent farrier both in UK & in NZ. My current farrier in NZ spent some of his training time with my old farrier - small world!

 

[Brambridge04]

UPDATE

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=459147