ok really stupid question r.e shoes vs barefoot

[Changes]

Well I always know I've won the argument when the poster resorts to personal insult Changes

Hmmm .... truly, it was an observation? No more or less than you have demonstrated in reply.

But I'm guessing your response kind of proves my assessment.......

 

[tallyho!]

Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.

CPTrayes does not have an ego...but you do. You go back on your words... you make things up and are very aggressive and not really making any sense with it. Which is why I think you are aggressive. Read it all back and I think you'd have to agree that YOU are the bully.

No barefooter on here has ever forced anyone into doing anything. What we have done is shared our experience.

Thing is... I was once someone like you (except for the horrid bully bit) who couldn't imagine an unshod horse then had a problem which couldn't be fixed and I tried what convention spat upon... but now I have sound healthy horses. Without shoes. That does not mean to say I (or, we, barefooters) think ALL horses should be barefoot in the UK. I'm saying hey, it worked for me, it might for you? After all this is a forum where we can share things like this. You know, ideas that may work. If they don't, too bad but at least we are not saying go on nail more wedges on, cut the tendon, pts - we are just offering another chance. (Not the OPs horse, I think conversation moved on from a simple "shall I put shoes on?")

For anyone who has ever made the leap - that takes guts! To stand up to your vet, farrier, mum, dad whatever and say "no - I do not want to sever his tendon or resect his hoof".

Go on... mock us. Call us evangelists, taliban, we don't give two hoots because what matters is that the horses we save get us through the day... smiling and frankly that is all we need.

Well done CPT for carrying on with Changes and his/her ignorance. Hats off!

 

[cptrayes]

Gosh this is gonna cost me a fortune! Cheque in the post Tallyho

Could'a sworn Changes said he/she wasn't going to write any more, must be going a bit senile

 

[cptrayes]

Just reread that and realised that it could be read two ways. I meant *I* must be going senile Now I'm sure I am!

 

[Tnavas]

Yes, that was "neglect", not "keeping horses naturally". They were left in an area where the forage was far too rich for their genetic make-up. New Forest ponies have terrible feet too. It does not tell us much about barefoot horses to study groups like that.

Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of.

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet.

These horses and ponies are mixtures of many breeds, some were army horses crossbreds, some UK natives and other european natives, some are escapees or stolen by stallions. The herds vary in different areas of the desert where a particular stallion has stamped his type on the herds.

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml

 

[Amaranta]

My horses are barefoot. Any old horse can be ushod, only a barefoot horse can do what any shod horse can do, but without shoes on

Sorry but this is complete and utter rubbish, neither of my two riding horses are shod, they both hack, hunt and compete with no problems whatsoever and both have beautiful feet.

In an earlier post you also said that laminitis is a gut not a foot issue and in the main this is correct BUT concussive laminitis is not a gut issue but as the name suggests a foot issue.

 

[Amaranta]

I am unable to take her off the grass. I do not have stable access and school is used by others so cant use it for a week to try it

Do not allow anyone to bully you into going barefoot, if you need to put shoes on your mare do so, some horses cannot cope and some can. Mine are unshod but I would put shoes on in an instant if they needed them.

 

[Amaranta]

I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on.

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass.

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture. I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.

Hmmm anecdotal then, not supported by veterinary research. You do have a habit of posting your opinions as pure fact, this is misleading at best and dangerous at worst.

 

[touchstone]

Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of.

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml

However in this veterinary research article http://www.kaimanawa.com/articles.shtml the pasture is said to be too rich:-

"The aetiology of the chronic laminitis described in this study is potentially linked to pasture-based nutrition. As Kaimanawa feral horses have unlimited access to pasture and browse through all seasons of the year, the importance of controlled nutrition for laminitis prevention is highlighted."


As for the 'bullying into barefoot" accusations, as far as I have seen the poster has been supported in her decision to shoe by the barefooters and the aggressive and sarcastic/ridiculing posts tend to be from pro shoers in my experience. They certainly seem to be the ones who get more worked up about things. I don't bother to post my experiences on the subject anymore due to the vitriol these threads create.

 

[cptrayes]

Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of.

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet.

These horses and ponies are mixtures of many breeds, some were army horses crossbreds, some UK natives and other european natives, some are escapees or stolen by stallions. The herds vary in different areas of the desert where a particular stallion has stamped his type on the herds.

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml

Then I have been misinformed about that study and I apologise, but I still do not see what relevance the study has at all to the keeping of horses barefoot in the UK. I do not myself advocate the wild horse model.

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry but this is complete and utter rubbish, neither of my two riding horses are shod, they both hack, hunt and compete with no problems whatsoever and both have beautiful feet.

In an earlier post you also said that laminitis is a gut not a foot issue and in the main this is correct BUT concussive laminitis is not a gut issue but as the name suggests a foot issue.

There is a theory, to which I subscribe, that horses do not get concussion laminitis unless the foot function is already compromised. In addition to that, the wearing of shoes creates a much higher concussive force on the foot, so would those horses who have concussion laminitis have it if they had not been wearing shoes?

No-one disputes that there are other types of laminitis. Post-partum failure to shed the placenta, for example. Stress, cushings etc. The discussion was about dietary laminitis in its early stages causing footiness in barefoot horses which can be masked with shoes - but should it be so masked?

 

[cptrayes]

Do not allow anyone to bully you into going barefoot, if you need to put shoes on your mare do so, some horses cannot cope and some can. Mine are unshod but I would put shoes on in an instant if they needed them.

The OP has, at my suggestion and the suggestion of others already had the horse shod and made a point of thanking ALL posters for our advice. She did not feel in the slightest bullied, and why would she, she wasn't.

 

[cptrayes]

Hmmm anecdotal then, not supported by veterinary research. You do have a habit of posting your opinions as pure fact, this is misleading at best and dangerous at worst.

Tell me where in that quote that I have posted anything as fact that I cannot substantiate. And if you read the thread back there are posts from other people explaining that there is veterinary support for reducing sugar in the diet of some sweet itch sufferers, and that it is a disease which originates in a malfunctioning liver in some horses. Please read the thread if you intend to participate in such a forceful manner as to describe what I write as dangerous.

Now, do you have anything to actually add to this discussion?

 

[Amaranta]

Tell me where in that quote that I have posted anything as fact that I cannot substantiate. And if you read the thread back there are posts from other people explaining that there is veterinary support for reducing sugar in the diet of some sweet itch sufferers, and that it is a disease which originates in a malfunctioning liver in some horses. Please read the thread if you intend to participate in such a forceful manner as to describe what I write as dangerous.

Now, do you have anything to actually add to this discussion?

Ahh, I disagree with you so I have nothing to add?

The way you write your posts DOES indeed infer fact, you write things in such a way that the reader is led to assume this.

Yes you did tell the OP to shoe her horse, but not after you had called her 'too sugar ignorant' to go barefoot, therefore implying that she was actually not good enough to become one of the enlightened. You also inferred that she could not be bothered to take her horse off grass. That was insulting to the OP and not a little patronising.

I actually agree with you on the subject of sugar (you might also want to consider starch too), the majority of leisure horses in the UK are fed far too much of it, and yes there IS anecdotal evidence that sugar in the diet can affect sweet itch, but it is just that, anecdotal, there is no hard and fast research on it and it is misleading to infer otherwise.

As mentioned, my own horses are unshod and carry out a workload that is probably harder than many leisure horses so I have no problem with anybody going shoeless, I do have a problem with those that are so evangelical that they seem to think that barefoot is a cure all, I do not deny that SOME horses have been improved or 'saved' (such an emotive word) but there have also been many shod horses 'saved' by shoes, not least those with laminitis.

Live and let live shoeing is right for some and wrong for others, just let people make up their own minds and stop influencing them with psuedo science.

 

[cptrayes]

Ahh, I disagree with you so I have nothing to add?

The way you write your posts DOES indeed infer fact, you write things in such a way that the reader is led to assume this.

Yes you did tell the OP to shoe her horse, but not after you had called her 'too sugar ignorant' to go barefoot, therefore implying that she was actually not good enough to become one of the enlightened. You also inferred that she could not be bothered to take her horse off grass. That was insulting to the OP and not a little patronising.

I actually agree with you on the subject of sugar (you might also want to consider starch too), the majority of leisure horses in the UK are fed far too much of it, and yes there IS anecdotal evidence that sugar in the diet can affect sweet itch, but it is just that, anecdotal, there is no hard and fast research on it and it is misleading to infer otherwise.

As mentioned, my own horses are unshod and carry out a workload that is probably harder than many leisure horses so I have no problem with anybody going shoeless, I do have a problem with those that are so evangelical that they seem to think that barefoot is a cure all, I do not deny that SOME horses have been improved or 'saved' (such an emotive word) but there have also been many shod horses 'saved' by shoes, not least those with laminitis.

Live and let live shoeing is right for some and wrong for others, just let people make up their own minds and stop influencing them with psuedo science.

She did not seem to have the problems with my post that you have on her behalf, why do you feel such a need to fight for her? I stand by what I said and she has thanked me for my opinion. First of all the poster said that she was sugar aware, and then when questionned she said that the horse was on grazing 24/7 and that she had no facilities whatsoever to remove her from that grazing if it became necessary. For me, that is a person who is not sugar aware enough to safely keep a footie horse barefoot and she should shoe, which is what she has done. It is nothing to do with judgement on her as a person, it simply relates to the fact that if you have a barefoot horse which is going footie due to excess grass consumption, and you cannot reduce that grass consumption, then you have no option but to boot or shoe. She has chosen to shoe. Fine.

I have never inferred that there is scientific evidence for the reduction of sugar leading to reduced sweetitch. Another poster said that her vet said there was "some" evidence". Not me. I simply described what I have seen with my own horse and what others then reported when I asked if anyone else had seen the same. What IS your problem with this??? What harm do you think it can possibly do if someone with a sweet itchy horse reduces its grass for a month to see whether it stops itching?

You have no more proof that shoeing has saved any laminitic or navicular spectrum horse than I do that they would have been as well, or better, off without them. The scientific research that has been done on both was on numbers so small as to be statistically insignificant, without proper control groups. We have already had this discussion with a vet and every study she came up with was numbered at or below 10 horses, without shoeless control groups at all. There is no evidence whatsoever that those horses saved from laminitis and navicular spectrum lameness by shoes would not also have been saved without them.

What I do know is that there are now dozens of horses which had been through the whole gamut of navicular spectrum treatments of drugs and remedial shoeing who were still lame and about to be retired or shot. They, including one of my own, are now in full work without drugs. I call that a cure. I don't know what the definition for a cure is if it is not "in full work long term, drug free and sound". I also find that miraculous, after all the years of being told that navicular was incurable. If my enthusiasm for that annoys you, so be it. You'll wait until hell freezes over for me to stop trying to influence people to try a barefoot rehab before they have a much loved horse with pedal bone rotation or collateral ligament damage or navicular disease put to sleep.

I agree with you. Shoeing is right for some and wrong for others. I say so myself. Often.
You are not disagreeing with me to put a constructive alternative point of view that we could all discuss, you just don't like the way I write things. If you don't like the way I write feel free to put me on ignore.

 

[Serephin]

*applauds cptrayes*

 

[tallyho!]

*applauds cptrayes*

 

[Clava]

*applauds cptrayes*

*stands and applauds too*

 

[soloequestrian]

More applause for cptrayes - where do you get your patience from?? I need to shop there.

 

[MissMistletoe]

More applause for cptrayes - where do you get your patience from?? I need to shop there.

Agreed!

 

[kickonchaps]

My thoughts on the sweet itch front...

I don't presume to be an expert by any means, but would guess that keeping a horse off grass completely also means keeping it stabled and away from the worst of the midges, in which case it would be hard to say which thing caused the improvement, or if it was a combination of both.

Cptrayes, I'm guessing from what you post that you're also pretty clued up on nutrition and go for the natural basics, so the horse you mentioned earlier that used to rub itself raw until it came to you would presumably have had a change of diet as well? From my point of view, there's no point keeping a horse off the grass if you then go and stuff it full of cereals and molasses, not to mention the amount of c**p that gets sprayed on feed before it even makes it in the bag, so if the horse you had was sensitive to sugar in general (and if his itchiness was that severe, one could probably presume there was a heck of a lot of other stuff it couldn't tolerate as well) then the change of bucket feed could have had just as much effect as the grass restriction? I obviously know nothing about this case beyond what you've said, so would be interested to know the other changes you made besides restricting turnout?

Personally, both my competition horses have been shod, and while I've learned a lot about barefoot/unshod from these types of discussion, I freely admit that I'm not prepared to take the time out of riding and competing to give either of my horses the time they would have needed to potentially go barefoot (both had/have rubbish feet, though improved when I got them thanks to my genius farrier!) That said, I DO believe in the most natural diet possible, and my horse competes on a purely forage diet, so if I had a baby to bring on I'm pretty confident I've got the diet right, and I'd be prepared to give it a go

 

[cptrayes]

I guess you haven't had time to read back over what I wrote. I was told that the horse had to be rugged 24/7 inside a stable and out. The reduction was nothing to do with him being stabled, he was never stabled for longer than half an hour a day.

His diet for the last nine months has been sugar beet (including molassed beet when he was with me), ad lib haylage and commercial horse and pony cubes. The change really was the grass, as has also been reported by other people.

A good diet will help the feet whether you have shoes on or not. It is astonishing when you look at the bag labels how much sugar is added to feed these days. As has been stated by someone else, some horses are also sensitive to carbohydrates in general, particularly barley. These do appear to be the minority, though, when it comes to footie barefoot horses. Most of those are happily dealt with by removing their access to grass during daylight hours when the sugars are highest, but a small proportion (I have one) need more restriction than that. I muzzle mine at night. With him it is definitely grass. He is not fat and he has ad lib commercial ryegrass haylage all day and a nice breakfast of molassed sugar beet and commercial cubes.

There is just something about grass sugars which appears to be unrelated to total calorie intake that a fair proportion of horses simply cannot deal with, and it shows in their feet, but only if they are barefoot.

I completely understand that you do not want not to lose your competition season. I was forced to do my first horse or he would have been permanently lame and that helps focus the mind a little It is rare to see someone in your situation with horses with difficult feet post without saying that your horses could not possibly manage barefoot. And it is great that you are aware that you would probably have to step down their work for a good amount of time while their feet improved in quality. You have exactly the right atttitude to make it work with a horse with bad feet, if you choose to give it ago in the off season.

Thanks for the support all you others guys, I can't afford to send any more cheques It's lucky I touch type or I'd be at this PC all day. I have to admit I love a good argument too, so that helps. I have another few days of needing to be close to hand for a recovering invalid, which hopefully will coincide with weather in which I will actually want to ride my horses instead of just feeding them, and I won't be around as much. I hear a collective sigh of relief from some quarters !!

 

[tallyho!]

Hope your invalid recovers soon cpt (hope nothing too serious either), and happy riding when you get chance! Don't go too mad though in case you slip or something... you know, not wearing shoes an all!!!!

 

[cptrayes]

Spotty bum, lovely! Appaloosa or Knabstrupper? Looks knabstrupper to me ? Very serious, but all over now bar the shouting, thankyou Where DOES that expression come from ???

 

[tallyho!]

Reg. Appy PB but he's a bit of a kaleidoscope isn't he? To think it was Aug last year I was questioning his ridden life....

hmmm... bar the _____ yes, where does it come from... ?

 

[kickonchaps]

I guess you haven't had time to read back over what I wrote. I was told that the horse had to be rugged 24/7 inside a stable and out. The reduction was nothing to do with him being stabled, he was never stabled for longer than half an hour a day.

Sorry, you're absolutely right, didn't have time to re-read and must have got muddled up with the comments later (half of which probably aren't even from you!!) about restricting grazing!

I think horses and grass is a whole other thread, how many of us know well meaning owners of laminitics and fatties who turn their horses out on 'starvation paddocks' and wonder why they're still laminitic/fat? Take him off the grass for a week, the difference between today and 7 days ago is what he's eaten and there's your answer!! Just got back from hacking my TB who has gone completely loopy, to look at our bare paddock you would wonder why, but we've gone nearly 2 months without rain and all that grass has been doing in that time is making sugar, and not using it to grow because there's no moisture... but anyway. I think this thread seems to be reaching it's natural conclusion so will leave my ramblings there

 

[MotherOfChickens]

anecdotally: I know of two natives who developed SI after a photosensitivity problem caused by eating a certain plant (bog asphodel). After a few years of preventative SI measures they appear to be growing out of it. vets and breeder are convinced it was due to liver damage caused by eating this plant.

just throwing that in there.

 

[Changes]

Thing is... I was once someone like you ...........

I very much doubt it - I'm several decades past needing or railing against parental approval and I've always had an open mind.

 

[cptrayes]

and I've always had an open mind.

You hide it well, I'll give you that

 

[Changes]

You hide it well, I'll give you that

But I've listened and looked and watched and seen, and mostly, it's a crock of......

See - that's trouble with your tunnel vision for what you perceive to be a 'new' idea, you think you're open minded when in fact you've just been brainwashed.

Never mind, you're just one of a couple of cults out there. I'm just trying to let other worried or less experienced people see just what cults you are.