ok really stupid question r.e shoes vs barefoot

[GingerCat]

Off topic I know but....

Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.

Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horse’s immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2....

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.

 

[Changes]

Oh good, you're back, what fun

I think I know exactly what the needs of a decent event horse are, and also how eventing and hunting differs.

Eventing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

Hunting:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAArU/i1ToTVuMMkk/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg


I have never advocated everything natural for a horse, there is no hypocrisy in anything that I write.

Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.

Why oh why do you think you are more knowledgeable than the 3/4* riders who compete professionally? Do you think they stud for fun? Another pic of you jumping a plain old fence is not proof that you are right.
And jumping big fences in an arena on grass means studs are essential.

OK, I'm up for veterinary proof that my knowledge of sweet itch may be incomplete - please provide it. Or are you going to dispute it's an allergic reaction to midge bites too?

 

[dizz4]

Hi just wanted to add my two penny worth opinion... we currently have 5 horses in work all Welsh Cobs and only one of them has shoes on at the front.... My horse has such soft horn that it just folds under and it sounds like he is wearing carpet slippers when he is unshod and he has virtually no hoof wall at all.... This works really well for my horse and he competes at County level and dressage...

My daughters pony has had laminitus and is now back competing but she gets a little footy on the hard ground so she wears Easy boots which give her sole protection and she goes really well in these and it really makes a difference.... other than that I would keep them unshod as they seem to work well and have no real problems. We don't do a lot of roadwork so they manage very well......

The downside of having shoes is that when mine was shod all round, he managed to get his foot stuck in a gate pulled a new shoe off and was then subsequently lame for nearly 3 years.... so therebye hangs a tail... he is only shod at the front now....

Dizz4

 

[Tnavas]

Are you saying that nailing shoes on and then turning out in squares is more natural? Or is that following ideals?

The IDEAL would be for them to run wild. Barefoot and muzzles is a better compromise in horse-human partnership than shoes and stable 24/7.

oh and lol about sliding boot... do you wear shoes? You do? Then does all your soft tissue fall off too?

If I wear shoes and run through mud that leaches into my shoes then yes my feet would soon become sore and blistered.

I've seen first hand what some boots can do in less than ideal conditions, raw heels, grooves being dug into the wall of the foot by the friction of the boot against the horn.

My mare is currently overweight - I tried the muzzle - she became very depressed and angry so it has been removed. Horror of horrors she is out in the daytime and in at night with a slice of hay. She is losing weight! and is now far happier without her muzzle.

She has never yet worn shoes is trimmed by my qualified UK farrier - whose comments on 'barefoot training and trimming' is not repeatable on a public forum. She is a Clydesdale and I've had many people complement me on the shape of her feet. She has lovely feet. Except when she forgets where she is putting them! She doesn't need a barefoot trimmer.

A recent study on the wild horses of the Kaimanawa ranges showed horses and ponies with terrible feet. Many had low grade laminitis, splits, chips and poorly shaped feet.

 

[Mitchyden]

This debate on sweet itch is very interesting. Both of my horses suffer from this condition, Lana is just a bit itchy but Zara is one of the most horrendous cases I have ever seen.

I decided in December last year to try my horses barefoot, something I have been very sceptical about in the past. My reason for this is that Zara was lame with a bone spavin so I didn't want to keep forking out for shoes when I couldn't ride and I was fed up with them both coming in from the field with snowballs in their feet.

The minute Lana had her shoes off I could ride her and she changed from a horse that tripped numerous times out hacking and in the school to a horse that has probably only tripped up twice since December last year!

This spring I had to keep them in during the daytime and out at night until end of April but now they are out 24/7 on a track system to keep them moving. I have been careful what supplements they get and what I feed them which brings me back to the sweet itch.

Lana has had her boett rug removed for the last three weeks and hasn't tried to scratch at all. Zara is still wearing hers, but I'm only having to cream between her back legs every two to three days as opposed to twice daily. I thought this was down to the copper and zinc supplement I was feeding them but perhaps it's down to their general health.

I get really cross by people who call us "the barefoot brigade" as I'm only doing what I think is right for my horse and I don't preach to anybody else. It is a very satisfying feeling looking at Lana's feet after doing a 10 mile ride on very stoney tracks and there is not so much as a chip in sight! They are nicely rounded and self trimming and my farrier is very impressed with them.

What annoys me is the other people on my yard who are desperate for me to fail but all I can see are benefits.

 

[cptrayes]

Off topic I know but....



Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horse’s immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2....

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.

I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on.

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass.

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture. I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.

 

[cptrayes]

A recent study on the wild horses of the Kaimanawa ranges showed horses and ponies with terrible feet. Many had low grade laminitis, splits, chips and poorly shaped feet.

Yes, that was "neglect", not "keeping horses naturally". They were left in an area where the forage was far too rich for their genetic make-up. New Forest ponies have terrible feet too. It does not tell us much about barefoot horses to study groups like that.

 

[cptrayes]

Why oh why do you think you are more knowledgeable than the 3/4* riders who compete professionally? Do you think they stud for fun? Another pic of you jumping a plain old fence is not proof that you are right.
And jumping big fences in an arena on grass means studs are essential.

OK, I'm up for veterinary proof that my knowledge of sweet itch may be incomplete - please provide it. Or are you going to dispute it's an allergic reaction to midge bites too?

I don't think I know any better than 3* riders, where did you hear me say that? They don't stud for fun they stud to win. I have already stated that studs are necessary if you want to win. If you are going to put a horse around corners faster than his natural balance would make safe, then you need studs. On a dry dressage arena you need studs.

I rode for fun and I chose not to stud my horse after the first couple of seasons because I do not like the unnatural forces that studs put on the leg joints. It doesn't bother me if other people want to stud, but it is not necessary to stud to event.

Are you aware that there has been a barefoot 3* horse? They could not keep him sound in shoes so they ran him without. There are people currently competing to Intermediate and they will go higher as the horses become more experienced.

I have plenty of other pics Changes, but you'll have to come to tea and look through my albums, I cannot be bothered to post any more, because you are entrenched in your corner and you aren't going to leave it no matter what evidence we come up with that we know what we are talking about.

Plain old fence - I love it Can I see your pics of the fences you jump please? Just to remind new readers, this is what Changes is calling a "plain old fence" To give you the scale I am nearly 5ft 9 and the horse is a very long backed 17.1hh. He has shoes on in this pic, I wasn't using it to show him barefoot but to counter Changes challenge that I did not know what was involved in eventing to "a decent level" :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

But I will just say that as someone who has hunted and evented, you are kidding yourself if you do not think that in the course of a season starting in August and finishing in April, bold hunters do not jump more difficult fences from more treacherous take-offs onto more perilous landings than are found on any 4* event course. I have yet to find an event course with a take-off on tarmac or a landing covered in cowpats. No hunter wears studs.

 

[Changes]

I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on.

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass.

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture. I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.

That's an interesting viewpoint - however - you said it was the liver function earlier? I would still like to see veterinary proof of that.
And until you conduct a study to see what happens with a lot of horses, you are just guessing, so please don't present a theory as fact as you did earlier.
However, that said, have you contacted the Sweet Itch people with your findings? I'm sure they would like to hear about a solution.

 

[Changes]

I don't think I know any better than 3* riders, where did you hear me say that? They don't stud for fun they stud to win. I have already stated that studs are necessary if you want to win. If you are going to put a horse around corners faster than his natural balance would make safe, then you need studs. On a dry dressage arena you need studs.

I rode for fun and I chose not to stud my horse after the first couple of seasons because I do not like the unnatural forces that studs put on the leg joints. It doesn't bother me if other people want to stud, but it is not necessary to stud to event.

Are you aware that there has been a barefoot 3* horse? They could not keep him sound in shoes so they ran him without. There are people currently competing to Intermediate and they will go higher as the horses become more experienced.

I have plenty of other pics Changes, but you'll have to come to tea and look through my albums, I cannot be bothered to post any more, because you are entrenched in your corner and you aren't going to leave it no matter what evidence we come up with that we know what we are talking about.

But I will just say that as someone who has hunted and evented, you are kidding yourself if you do not think that in the course of a season starting in August and finishing in April, bold hunters do not jump more difficult fences from more treacherous take-offs onto more perilous landings than are found on any 4* event course. I have yet to find an event course with a take-off on tarmac or a landing covered in cowpats. No hunter wears studs.

I stud to SJ on grass, I stud to go XC, I stud to do dressage, if not on a surface. I stud to keep my horses safe from slipping, nothing to do with the need to win. Young horses ridden by pros are not studded to win. They are studded to keep them safely on their feet. You really have the wrong end of the stick on this.

BTW, I have hunted for years, on loads of horses in all types of ground and never studded. The ground is far too unpredictable. Why do you assume that I don't know what I'm discussing?

I'm no more entrenched in my corner than you are - it would be funny if you could only see it.
I looked at 'barefoot', read up about it, decided each to their own and let them get on with it. It's the evangelical ones like you that come on and suggest that barefoot is the answer to everything that drives those of us that live and let live to distraction. But you don't see it, you seem to think that those of us that disagree are being confrontational or trolling, simply because we do not buy into the narrow system of barefoot that you have.

I've also seen some serious damage done to horses feet by supposedly qualified trimmers. And some very sore horses being kept 'barefoot'.
We took one on that was going to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound on her barefoot regime. She'd been trying for 18 months or so, and this poor horse was miserable, his legs were filling,he was abscessing etc.
His feet were left alone for the first fortnight away from the owner, a set of shoes were put on and the horse has been sound ever since (over 2 years ago).

 

[cptrayes]

Oh you tease ! You do like an argument don't you???

Does it matter whether it was his liver or his penis, as long as it was the grass that was causing it???? That's the point we were trying to discuss, but you specialise in picking holes in people's arguments which are not material to the main thing being discussed.

 

[tallyho!]

Off topic I know but....



Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horse’s immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2....

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.

Actually that isn't technically correct - sweetitch loosely groups several types of itchyness/skin psoriases/lesions on horses. If you googled sweetitch you DO actually find sources that confirm the liver has a part to play in general health and disease tolerance. The saliva reaction is only ONE kind of sweetitch. It doesn't help those sufferers who are allergic to tree pollen, rapeseed, grass even. Not all sweetitch is an autoimmune disease. Most are simply an immune-reponse which (yes, is excessive) raises levels of histamines & cytokines which cause irritation (in the case of midges). TH2 are T-Helper Cells which are signal cells and in autoimmune disease is very complex and involves genetics and the presence of certain markers.

Auto-immune is when the body attacks ITSELF - like Rheumatoid Arthritis, Spondyloarthropathies, Ulcerative Colitis, Crohnes, Encephalopathy, Psoriasis etc. I'm not sure sweetitch falls into this category. It's more of an allergy category.

We ALL agree - even Dr Eustace who is one of the leading lights in lami - agrees excess sugar makes horses sick. They have sick feet, sick livers, sick skin - not all at once one hopes! He agrees that some have a higher tolerance to sugars than others but not which ones. That is like saying you can tell who has diabetes (i/ii) in a classroom of mixed people. Most doctors could tell you sugar makes humans sick nevermind an animal that wasn't built to handle it at all.

I think what is encouranging is that despite the bickering, people are beginning to question what is right. What you'll be surprised to hear is that, it is the work of conscientious, inquisitive OWNERS not professionals who will be making the biggest leaps forward in equine science, quietly, behind the scenes. It will take many years, perhaps not in my lifetime but I am confident things will change. Epidemics (i.e. laminitis) always bring about change.

 

[cptrayes]

I stud to SJ on grass, I stud to go XC, I stud to do dressage, if not on a surface. I stud to keep my horses safe from slipping, nothing to do with the need to win. Young horses ridden by pros are not studded to win. They are studded to keep them safely on their feet. You really have the wrong end of the stick on this.

They are studded to keep them safely on their feet when they are too young and/or too unbalanced to jump safely without studs. It is quite possible to showjump without studs and there are people who do. But with a young and unbalanced horse you may well have to take things slower. I have had one unshod horse slip and fall over with me. He didn't do it because he had no shoes or studs on. He did it because I misjudged the situation and put him round a 90degree turn on a severe slope on hard ground too fast.

You stud whenever you want to. I don't mind. But don't tell me it's essential. It's not.

BTW, I have hunted for years, on loads of horses in all types of ground and never studded. The ground is far too unpredictable. Why do you assume that I don't know what I'm discussing?

Because you said earlier that hunters did not need studs when eventers did because they were doing jumps that did not need studs like eventers do. I can hardly believe that you do actually hunt and yet you don't think your horse does at least as tricky things hunting as it does eventing. How surprising!

I'm no more entrenched in my corner than you are - it would be funny if you could only see it.

It IS funny, I am finding this discussion immensely diverting from my current task of babysitting an invalid

I looked at 'barefoot', read up about it, decided each to their own and let them get on with it. It's the evangelical ones like you that come on and suggest that barefoot is the answer to everything that drives those of us that live and let live to distraction.

Do please enlighten me where I ever said any such thing.

But you don't see it, you seem to think that those of us that disagree are being confrontational or trolling, simply because we do not buy into the system of barefoot that you have.

If I believe that you are incorrect then I am entitled to say so. You are entitled to disagree with me. Debate is good.

I've also seen some serious damage done to horses feet by supposedly qualified trimmers. And some very sore horses being kept 'barefoot'. We took one on that was going to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound on her barefoot regime. She'd been trying for 18 moths or so, and this poor horse was miserable, his legs were filling,he was abscessing etc.
His feet were left alone for the first fortnight away from the owner, a set of shoes were put on and the horse has been sound ever since (over 2 years ago).

There is good and bad trimming. There are good and bad farriers. There are horse owners who are brilliant and there are horse owners who are so stupid as to be dangerous. I could come up with a dozen stories about shod horses that counter yours and some more barefoot horror stories too. No-one should keep a horse barefoot that is miserable, abscessing etc. The owner was a cruel idiot. Unfortunately, the world has plenty of idiots.

Plenty of horses stay sound all their lives in shoes. But plenty of them could have done perfectly well without them, so why on earth have those ones got them on???

 

[Changes]

Plenty of horses stay sound all their lives in shoes. But plenty of them could have done perfectly well without them, so why on earth have those ones got them on???

To put studs in? And you don't KNOW that they will have done perfectly well without them.
I wouldn't bother debating with you if you weren't so sure you're right and the huge majority of experienced horseowners are wrong. You jump into as many posts as you can telling people to try barefoot.

As I said - you can't tell what terrain you will be on for hunting, so how can you stud. Read what I said, it's not to do with the jumps, it's all about the surface.

 

[cptrayes]

To put studs in? And you don't KNOW that they will have done perfectly well without them.
I wouldn't bother debating with you if you weren't so sure you're right and the huge majority of experienced horseowners are wrong. You jump into as many posts as you can telling people to try barefoot.

As I said - you can't tell what terrain you will be on for hunting, so how can you stud. Read what I said, it's not to do with the jumps, it's all about the surface.

Changes if your horse can cope with any dreadful and unexpected takeoffs and landing out hunting without studs then I am at a loss to understand your argument that he could not event without them. The argument is not that studs are impractical for hunting (and dangerous to fallers). That is a given. The argument is that if you can hunt without them then it's perfectly clear to me that you can event without them. And I have and other people do to higher levels than I did.

A very very very small proportion of the total horses in this country are ever studded Changes. Studs are one of the few genuine reasons to shoe. If you want studs for competition, you need to shoe. Fine.

But I would love to see us stop shoeing the horses who it is blindingly obvious can manage perfectly well without.

I do know that there are thousands of horses who will do fine without shoes because I am aware of hundreds and hundreds of horses doing identical work who do manage perfectly well without them. Those include a high proportion of horses, including my own, where farriers have said that the horse will never cope without shoes. And not a few where the horse was so foot-lame even after meds and remedial shoes that the owner was told to retire the horse or put it down.

If I have a 100% success record in getting 5 horses eventing without shoes and another 5 hacking stony tracks/jumping/dressage without shoes, and not a single failure including one whose feet could be bent with my fingers, then I am absolutely certain that if you gave me another 100 horses I would get at least 80% of them (I actually think 95% or greater, but for the sake of argument let's say 80) doing their current workload without shoes.

Do you really think that every pony in the country who is currently shod, who in the fifties would not have been seen anywhere near metal shoes, needs them?

Do you really think that every cob with great big solid feet with shoes on needs them?

Do you really think that every dressage horse being taken from its stable to a prepared arena to work and back again, with a bit of turnout maybe, needs them?

I don't believe that even you can believe that. And if you don't believe that then it follows that there are thousands and thousands of horses and ponies in this country with shoes on for NO GOOD REASON.

 

[Oberon]

You can't doubt CpTrayes' enthusiasm.

But to be fair to her and the Barefoot Taliban......

There are countless posts on here of owners facing hefty vets bills for diagnosis, drug treatment and even surgery. Remedial shoeing bills (head bangs the desk).

When all they need to do to take the horses pain away is to take the shoes off.

There are AT LEAST two horses from this forum who have been sent to Rockley farm following the BT banging the drum.

These two horses are doing just fine now.

They were facing a bullet before this.

Cptrayes personally saved and rehabbed a horse 24 hours from a bullet that even Rockley Farm didn't want to take on. He is having a great life now.

I'm not saying barefoot cures everything - but if I had a penny for everytime someone didn't do the right prep work and just pulled the shoes off and struggled on without doing the right things - then said, "I tried barefoot and my horse just couldn't cope."
I'd be a very rich woman.

If I had a penny for every time someone just said, "my horse could never cope without shoes." I'd also be a very rich woman

And while there could be a chance that a desperate owner is reading all this and another horse can be saved and be helped sound enough to enjoy life - then Cptrayes and the rest of us will carry on banging the drum - whether others like it or not

 

[Changes]

Changes if your horse can cope with any dreadful and unexpected takeoffs and landing out hunting without studs then I am at a loss to understand your argument that he could not event without them. The argument is not that studs are impractical for hunting (and dangerous to fallers). That is a given. The argument is that if you can hunt without them then it's perfectly clear to me that you can event without them. And I have and other people do to higher levels than I did.

A very very very small proportion of the total horses in this country are ever studded Changes. Studs are one of the few genuine reasons to shoe. If you want studs for competition, you need to shoe. Fine.

But I would love to see us stop shoeing the horses who it is blindingly obvious can manage perfectly well without.

I do know that there are thousands of horses who will do fine without shoes because I am aware of hundreds and hundreds of horses doing identical work who do manage perfectly well without them. Those include a high proportion of horses, including my own, where farriers have said that the horse will never cope without shoes. And not a few where the horse was so foot-lame even after meds and remedial shoes that the owner was told to retire the horse or put it down.

If I have a 100% success record in getting 5 horses eventing without shoes and another 5 hacking stony tracks/jumping/dressage without shoes, and not a single failure including one whose feet could be bent with my fingers, then I am absolutely certain that if you gave me another 100 horses I would get at least 80% of them (I actually think 95% or greater, but for the sake of argument let's say 80) doing their current workload without shoes.

Do you really think that every pony in the country who is currently shod, who in the fifties would not have been seen anywhere near metal shoes, needs them?

Do you really think that every cob with great big solid feet with shoes on needs them?

Do you really think that every dressage horse being taken from its stable to a prepared arena to work and back again, with a bit of turnout maybe, needs them?

I don't believe that even you can believe that. And if you don't believe that then it follows that there are thousands and thousands of horses and ponies in this country with shoes on for NO GOOD REASON.

You are not reading what I'm writing, are you? You CANNOT stud for the variables in terrain out hunting - which part of that are you failing to grasp?
So yes, the horse does run risks of slipping in deep mud. But, unlike on an XC course, you can choose to avoid or bypass terrain that might cause a problem.
However, mostly,when you run on either XC or in a grass arena you can stud for the state of the ground which will generally be fairly consistent, and have already walked what course to take.

I have already specified studs are not needed on a surface, so your dressage horse analogy is unneccessary and irrelevant.

Shod or unshod, if it suits your horse then I don't have an issue with it, and and neither do I believe that every horse needs shoes. Again, read what I am writing!

What I take issue with is your insistence that every horse can be without shoes, and I do not believe that in the slightest.


If you succeed with individual horses then I'm happy the horses are fine. I personally couldn't care less whether or not you shoe or stud, but I do get angry for horses that might well suffer at your insistance and pressure on posts that they can all be barefoot.

It is people like you being so adamant of the notion that every horse can be barefoot that puts so many horses at risk by encouraging people to take shoes off when you have NO idea of their circumstances, experience or situation.

I'm now just repeating myself here, as you clearly don't read what I'm writing before you reply, so I'll bow out. Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.

 

[Clava]

Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.

Just out of interest, what will be the consequences of an owner taking shoes off that would weigh heavily on someone's conscience?

 

[Oberon]

When they don't do the right background work or research. Continue to feed shiny packeted molassed feeds and have Rasping Rambo do the feet

 

[Changes]

Just out of interest, what will be the consequences of an owner taking shoes off that would weigh heavily on someone's conscience?

The case I quoted earlier, for ex? She was so indoctrinated by the barefoot ideology that she failed to see she and her insistence on keeping the poor sod barefoot was the reason her horse was suffering. She's by no means the only case I've come across. I hope her 'trained' EP cared about it. But then I doubt she even knew the damage she was inflicting. Because, having spoken to the current guru in the states who seems to train a huge proportion of these 'registered' trimmers, he doesn't give a toss - he's quite happy to send out people trimming on a week's course from his 'university' whilst accepting zero responsibility for the damage they inflict.

I sent this man photos of various horrors done to horses feet ( one was PTS) under his name and his qualification, and he didn't care. He said he only issues a 'qualification' that they've attended a course, not a guarantee of competence. So he is not accountable for them. And neither are they answerable to him.

Yet this person is held in high regard, and as a standard reference by so many barefooters.

So who does regulate these people? No-one.......

That's why I have huge concerns .

 

[maggiesmum]

Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.

You might just want to check page 1 - this thread was started by someone who's horse was currently barefoot and had decided to shoe anyway.
CP your conscience can sleep easily tonight!

 

[Changes]

You might just want to check page 1 - this thread was started by someone who's horse was currently barefoot and had decided to shoe anyway.
CP your conscience can sleep easily tonight!

Yup, luckily the OP was sensible and made the right decision for her horse, despite pressure to do otherwise.

 

[StrawberryFish]

Does anyone who has a barefoot horse go barefoot themselves or their children? (and by that I mean no shoes or soft soled shoes)
My children wear 'barefoot' shoes as I believe it is incredibly important for their foot health.
Horse wise, if I were to get a youngster I would keep them 'barefoot' for as long as possible, but it's different if your horse has been shod it's entire life (as all my previous ones have) to suddenly take them off, and I personally would only do so with caution.
On an aside our mini shettie is barefoot and very happy foot wise

 

[cptrayes]

You are not reading what I'm writing, are you? You CANNOT stud for the variables in terrain out hunting - which part of that are you failing to grasp?
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I understand perfectly that you cannot stud for hunting. The fact that we do not stud for hunting demonstrates perfectly how unnecesary studs are for eventing.

So yes, the horse does run risks of slipping in deep mud. But, unlike on an XC course, you can choose to avoid or bypass terrain that might cause a problem.
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I cannot choose to bypass terrain that the field master has led me through - I am on his heels, not pootling around at the back of the field. There is no deep mud or any other poor surface on BE cross country fence take-offs or landings, they are all prepared if they are not already on well drained land. All the more reason that studs are unnecessary.

I have already specified studs are not needed on a surface, so your dressage horse analogy is unneccessary and irrelevant.
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You seem absolutely fixated about studs Changes. The discussion at that point was not about studs, we both agree that if you want studs to compete with you have to shoe and that is a genuinely good reason to shoe, as I said. But the discussion by then was that you had challenged my assertion that there are thousands of horses out there are who are wearing shoes with no need. Dressage horses are some of those thousands, as are most ponies, most cobs, and most happy hacker horses.

What I take issue with is your insistence that every horse can be without shoes, and I do not believe that in the slightest.
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Can you please point to me where I have stated this? I have repeated often that not every owner/horse combination can manage without shoes. Not all horses can manage without shoes either, but on the right diet, with the right exercise, and the right living conditions (all of which vary from horse to horse but which not all owners are able to provide) most of them can.

If you succeed with individual horses then I'm happy the horses are fine. I personally couldn't care less whether or not you shoe or stud, but I do get angry for horses that might well suffer at your insistance and pressure on posts that they can all be barefoot.
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I do not insist that they can all be barefoot, I recommended this poster to have her horse shod if she could not restrict its grass intake, and she has done so and thanked me for my advice.

It is people like you being so adamant of the notion that every horse can be barefoot that puts so many horses at risk by encouraging people to take shoes off when you have NO idea of their circumstances, experience or situation.
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It is people like me who have now saved the lives of a number of horses which were to be put to sleep. I cannot help it if there are stupid people who allow their horses to be terribly sore. I state constantly that this is not acceptable, as I have on this thread. I am no more responsible for sore barefoot horses than I am for the army of horses crashing with laminitis because their owners allow them too much food. Or for the lame creatures in shoes with badly balanced feet who you can see in the warm up of nearly every local competition that you go to.

I'm now just repeating myself here, as you clearly don't read what I'm writing before you reply, so I'll bow out. Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.

If you are going to bow out, for that I am grateful I read everything you write carefully but it would be nice not to have to read any more of it.

I push no-one to do anything and I challenge you to find any post where I have pushed anyone to do anything. I have nothing on my conscience, but I sure would have if owners had their horses shot because of navicular and I had not told them that there was another option.

 

[Changes]

Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.

 

[Jesstickle]

Blimey cptrayes. I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye over the barefoot/shod thing but you're getting a right going over today! And actually I think you've been very reasonable in your posts too.

And as to the sweet itch thing, I've heard from the mouth of a vet no less, that sugar intake is suspected to have an impact on the condition in some cases.

 

[cptrayes]

Does anyone who has a barefoot horse go barefoot themselves or their children? (and by that I mean no shoes or soft soled shoes)
My children wear 'barefoot' shoes as I believe it is incredibly important for their foot health.
Horse wise, if I were to get a youngster I would keep them 'barefoot' for as long as possible, but it's different if your horse has been shod it's entire life (as all my previous ones have) to suddenly take them off, and I personally would only do so with caution.
On an aside our mini shettie is barefoot and very happy foot wise

Co founder of UKNHCP Sarah Braithwaite uses barefoot shoes and credits them with solving her back problems. Other half of the other cofounder Nic Barker runs cross country in barefoot shoes. I'll bet your kids love them !

 

[cptrayes]

Blimey cptrayes. I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye over the barefoot/shod thing but you're getting a right going over today! And actually I think you've been very reasonable in your posts too.

And as to the sweet itch thing, I've heard from the mouth of a vet no less, that sugar intake is suspected to have an impact on the condition in some cases.

Cheque's in the post Jess !

 

[cptrayes]

Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.

Well I always know I've won the argument when the poster resorts to personal insult Changes

 

[Jesstickle]

Cheque's in the post Jess !

Hehe. Well, as you were nice about my ridiculous lami ridden TB (vet confirmed what I thought despite them initially thinking I had gone bonkers) I thought I ought to speak up!