ok really stupid question r.e shoes vs barefoot

[cptrayes]

I don't think it's a new idea Changes. I refer constantly to the days when all sport horses had their shoes taken off during the closed season for their particular sport. Navicular syndrome was a rare disease then. Now we have no closed season and navicular syndrome is an epidemic. We used to feed horses straights, not mixes full of sugar. Laminitis was something people thought horses couldn't get. Now laminitis is an epidemic, and with it, people think that even ponies need shoes.

It's not a new idea, and I have never claimed it was, we just lost our way in the last 30 years.

If I have been brainwashed by a cult into a situation where I haven't paid for a set of shoes in 6 years even though I evented and now hunt, then it's a cult that I thoroughly recommend everyone succumbs to

 

[Changes]

I don't think it's a new idea Changes. I refer constantly to the days when all sport horses had their shoes taken off during the closed season for their particular sport. Navicular syndrome was a rare disease then. Now we have no closed season and navicular syndrome is an epidemic. We used to feed horses straights, not mixes full of sugar. Laminitis was something people thought horses couldn't get. Now laminitis is an epidemic, and with it, people think that even ponies need shoes.

It's not a new idea, and I have never claimed it was, we just lost our way in the last 30 years.

As I was heavily involved with SJ 30 years ago, I beg to differ. Navicular was the one most terrifying syndrome that everyone feared for their horses. It was the most common cause for PTS when the then treatments failed.

And yes, taking shoes off and on was common then, but it still is today for turned away horses.

So, are we back to talking about sports horses, (who need studs therefore shoes) or happy hackers, who have no closed season?

 

[cptrayes]

Well we have already established that sports horses do not need studs, though most riders want them and that's fine.

Navicular disease in showjumpers may have been common but it was far from common in ordinary riding horses (I was in a 60 horse livery for years and mine was the only horse there that got it). It is now rife to the point where some vets are beginning to use the word epidemic.

Of course turned away horses still have their shoes off. The point is that today horses are not routinely turned away. When there was a closed season for showing, showjumping, dressage and eventing they were. Those horses now compete and have shoes on all year round.

In the old days many happy hackers never had shoes on in the first place, which is why I know that barefoot is not a new approach, just a rediscovery of what works for horses. Unfortunately the rediscovery has coincided with us having lost a lot of good things about the way we used to manage horses, like high fibre, low carb diets, proper exercise (not ten minutes in an arena in the dark and wet after work) and the combination gives quite a few people problems getting their horses working without shoes.

Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it?

Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more?

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?

 

[Changes]

Specify particular questions for debate and I'll answer them. Otherwise, as you move the goalposts everytime, I'm fed up replying to you when you change tack on an issue.

You just mentioned the closed season, not me, so when I answered that, you moved onto happy hackers. Which, IMO, didn't really exist in the way they do now 30 years ago.

 

[cptrayes]

Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it?

Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more?

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?
__________________

 

[Changes]

Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it?

1 - No, not against, IF, and there's the rub (sic) the horses really do cope. And I have unfortunately experienced people who tell me their horses are coping when in fact they are not, so forgive me if I don't believe the words of a total stranger on the internet when in RL I have seen people so convinced they were right about going barefoot that they blinkered themselves to the reality that their horses look sound because they are in fact equally sore on all 4 legs. I'm not saying this is your situation at all, but it's not uncommon.

Your intent to put your opinions (sweet itch being caused by liver problems, for ex) across as facts also makes me doubt you.

Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more?

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?

Trouble is, it's a bit like the old furren rescue whose name can never be spoken, you only ever hear the success stories because they want to broadcast to the world how clever they are. There's not a load of posts saying I failed miserably and my horse died because I was dumb enough to buy into the barefoot nonsense.

I said before, I have researched it - I have one very close friend who is a master farrier (he is also an examiner for new farriers), and I currently ride for a now retired farrier who is very much pro what the horse needs, either if it can or cannot go without shoes. Because the topic interests me, I discuss it.

So yes, there will be success stories, but the nature of the barefoot beast followers is that they never admit that they are wrong.

Those of us that shoe when neccessary, or don't if not neccessary, do what is right for the horse. Your push and belief that every horse can be barefoot is at best misguided.

 

[Changes]

Well we have already established that sports horses do not need studs, though most riders want them and that's fine.

To clarify - we have not established this at all. You might think that, but do not put words into my mouth.

I firmly believe that to keep horses safe at a reasonable level of competition studs are totally neccessary, unless riding on an artificial surface.

 

[Alyth]

What a shame we haven't got a "like" button!! I must also applaud cptrayes for her (I assume you are a "she"!!) patience and logical arguments. Unfortunately sometimes we just have to bang our heads against a brick wall!!
I would like to make a couple of comments....
restriction to grass does not have to = confinement. The track system is amazing and enables horses and ponies to move a lot while searching for their feed. Secondly grass varies a lot. "Cow pasture" is not horse friendly. Long, rank, unimproved, permament pasture is great. Thirdly, there is a big difference between "unshod" and "barefoot trims. There is heel length, "mustang" rolls, and bar consideration for a start.....Also barefoot trimmers do not rasp a flat surface to accomodate a shoe!!! And in this discussion I have not seen the words "hoof mechanism" mentioned once!!! Thank you all for your reasoned arguments!!! Alyth

 

[amandap]

What a shame we haven't got a "like" button!! I must also applaud cptrayes for her (I assume you are a "she"!!) patience and logical arguments.

Ditto.

1 - No, not against, IF, and there's the rub (sic) the horses really do cope.

Some obviously do. Have a look at the hunting mileage on the left column on this blog and at some of the hunting videos. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

The big question for me is HOW/WHY do these horses cope when some others may not? We need to look at these and other horses being successful and learn lessons about management, diet etc.
Or, we can slap a pair of shoes on and carry on regardless of any impact on the horse in the longer term.
For me even if shoes are deemed necessary I'm sure looking at ways of improving a horses health is something we all want to do.

 

[RolyPolyPony]

However many shod hooves have contracted heels.. Heels typically decontract when un shod and correctly trimmed.

and contracted heels/frogs are prone to infections. My lad has VERY contracted heels - que him having VERY bad infections when he arrived. He's been barefoot since i've had him (8months) and for around a year or so before i had him and his frogs are still very contracted from being shod. My barefoot trimmer doesnt think they will decontract

 

[RolyPolyPony]

I said before, I have researched it - I have one very close friend who is a master farrier (he is also an examiner for new farriers), and I currently ride for a now retired farrier who is very much pro what the horse needs, either if it can or cannot go without shoes. Because the topic interests me, I discuss it.

ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort. Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot. I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.

 

[Changes]

Ditto.


Some obviously do. Have a look at the hunting mileage on the left column on this blog and at some of the hunting videos. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

The big question for me is HOW/WHY do these horses cope when some others may not? We need to look at these and other horses being successful and learn lessons about management, diet etc.
Or, we can slap a pair of shoes on and carry on regardless of any impact on the horse in the longer term.
For me even if shoes are deemed necessary I'm sure looking at ways of improving a horses health is something we all want to do.

My horses are fit and healthy, thank you.

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really.

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting.
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?

 

[Changes]

ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort. Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot. I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.

Wrong. What a ridiculous generalisation. Some horses can, some horses cannot.

 

[touchstone]

My horses are fit and healthy, thank you.

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really.

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting.
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?

I don't think any barefooter that I know would suggest that a horse that isn't barefoot or on paddock paradise is being neglected? Quite the opposite in that you do the best for your horse and if that means shoeing then fair enough. It is simply a fact that horses that are on a lot of grass often struggle with going barefoot and so often some restriction is necessary. Nothing whatsoever to do with an owner being neglectful. I prefer to rehab without using shoes or drugs where possible, it worked for mine and so I have no need to resort to conventional methods.

 

[Changes]

I don't think any barefooter that I know would suggest that a horse that isn't barefoot or on paddock paradise is being neglected?

So are you disputing that the general barefoot mantra on this thread is that shoes damage feet, and they shouldn't be on grass to be healthy?

Do what you want to do with your horses, and if they are safe and sound then that is perfect. But don't insult those who do shoe their horses as some on here have done, with the implication being that we need to change to the 'barefoot' way of thinking.

It's like arguing Parelli on here..........

 

[foxy1]

Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?

 

[Izzwizz]

Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?

Hmmmn I'll ask my Farrier that one. Probably due to the domestication and interbreeding of horses amongst many other reasons....

 

[mystiandsunny]

ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort. Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot. I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.

I have one who came to me nearly crippled because someone had assumed the above, and she was a youngster not in work so they hadn't checked she was ok. Congenital weakness in sole/horn (seen it in other progeny from same stallion, severity depends on horn quality passed on by the dam to mitigate it). Sole paper thin, you could see the artery pulsing by just picking up the hoof. Out at grass, moving around all the time, balancer for vits&mins. Shod all round (initially with gel to help protect those soles), now happy as larry, sound and comfy. Ok, it's expensive, but it's what she needs!

Everything else is barefoot except the one who had canker who still needs shoes in front to help correct the growth in the worst affected hoof. Hopefully one day she won't need them any more.

And before you get excited about her - my TB is barefoot and has rock crunching hooves, so it's not like I don't give everything a chance!

 

[Changes]

Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?

Genetics. Why are some mammals predisposed to longevity and others not? Why can some horses jump and others not? Why do some have fine manes and others not?

 

[Natch]

Why is this thread so contraversial? Changes, you bring really interesting stuff to the table, but I honestly think you have misunderstood or are wildly generalising what people who are pro barefoot are saying.

To be honest, who's to say that barefoot can't work for all horses? Who's to say that some - many - horses can't cope in shoes all their lives with never a days lameness? The crux of the reason we are having this debate is that science is trying, but hasn't yet fully caught up with what are still relatively new theories on hoof care. In the meantime its becoming apparent that it never did much about existing theories, (shoeing) either

So we rely on personal experience (obviously widely variable) and generally a collection of people's theories in order to decide.

Changes, what is the core issue that you object to in all of this? Because I don't believe anyone has criticsed you personally, or even made sweeping statements about paddock paradise etc. is it that people have beliefs which don't agree with your own?

I appreciate this post may come across as arsey. I don't mean it to be, but can't work out how to re-word it. I'm curious, not aggressive, but take me as you find me either way

 

[amandap]

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting.
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?

That was not my intention but if you choose to be insulted that's your take. I choose not to be insulted by the many comments about about BF being a load of B****T and that I'm cruel not putting shoes on my horses. I used to but I no longer take comments personally when people are discussing their beliefs.

I prefer to learn and do what makes sense to me, I'm sure you do the same, we just see things differently. Glad you managed to rehab a navicular horse with shoes and drugs. Hope he/she has a long and happy sound life.

Re Rockley I suppose it depends what you mean by success. Many of the horses taken in for rehab are there as it's the last chance saloon where drugs and conventional treatment have failed. To me their success rate is incredible considering previous prognosis of many horses who go there for rehab.
To me success with a horse in severe pain is that horse being sound and free of pain.
Mta... Anything else is a bonus to me.

 

[touchstone]

So are you disputing that the general barefoot mantra on this thread is that shoes damage feet, and they shouldn't be on grass to be healthy?

Do what you want to do with your horses, and if they are safe and sound then that is perfect. But don't insult those who do shoe their horses as some on here have done, with the implication being that we need to change to the 'barefoot' way of thinking.

It's like arguing Parelli on here..........

Excuse me - but I'd like to see where I've insulted over anybody shoeing???

Shoeing long term/incorrect shoeing does damage feet, and feet often are healthier without shoes, I don't even think any farrier would dispute that and most recommend a break from shoes at some point. The fact remains that the type of grazing that many horses are on does have a negative impact on the horse so yes, grass intake may need controlling to keep a horse healthier.
I still don't see how those statements mean that it is insulting to suggest removing shoes or restricting grazing.

 

[cptrayes]

Your push and belief that every horse can be barefoot is at best misguided.

Why do you persist in accusing me of pushing and believing that every horse can be barefoot? I have specifically stated that this is not the case. You come across as really aggressive because you continue, time after time after time, to accuse me of saying things which not only have I not said, but where I have said quite the contrary.

Misguided barefooters are far from alone in believing that a horse marginally lame in all four feet is sound. That applies equally to the owners of shod horses, particularly ones which are bilaterally lame in both fronts, which I see at least one example of at practically every competition I go to. Misguided people exist everywhere, they are not limited to barefooters, more is the pity.

I would trust Master Farriers more if I did not own a horse who two told me would never work barefoot, because he was unable to stand to be shod if both fronts were off at the same time. He has now been barefoot and sound six years and he evented at BE Novice 10 months after they gave me that judgement. And also if I did not have a "navicular" horse who has now worked sound for naerly a year, whose farrier was completely unable to achieve that result with shoes and never attempted to achieve shoeless. Many farriers are unfortunately among those who have lost the art of keeping working horses without shoes and they are ill placed to advise on which horses can or cannot cope barefoot. Some, however, particularly those who are also members of UKNHCP are nothing short of brilliant.

I think other people have established that there is veterinary evidence that sweet itch originates in some horses as a liver disease, so I'm not sure why you bring that one back up again?

Thankyou for your answers, it is interesting to know your point of view.

 

[cptrayes]

I have one who came to me nearly crippled because someone had assumed the above, and she was a youngster not in work so they hadn't checked she was ok. Congenital weakness in sole/horn (seen it in other progeny from same stallion, severity depends on horn quality passed on by the dam to mitigate it). Sole paper thin, you could see the artery pulsing by just picking up the hoof. Out at grass, moving around all the time, balancer for vits&mins. Shod all round (initially with gel to help protect those soles), now happy as larry, sound and comfy. Ok, it's expensive, but it's what she needs!

I am genuinely interested in this case and trying to learn, not cause trouble. PM me with your answers if you prefer.

Did anyone try removing that horse from grass completely before shoeing it? It sounds to me like a bad case of feet weakened by either EPSM or EMS, both of which are now being recognised in a surprising number of horses, and both diseases that were practically unknown until a few years ago. The hereditary aspect in this case could easily be that both diseases are genetic in origin and the stallion may well be a sufferer. As a stallion it is probably kept in most of the time, and if , so the worst aspects of intolerance of grass sugars in him would not show. Did anyone try the EPSM diet of high oil and high vitamin E with the filly?


The reason that the farrier of the rehab mentioned above did not believe the horse could go shoeless was because he had xrays showing his soles to be 3.5mm thick and his feet could be bent with your fingers. On the EPMS diet, he rapidly developed strong hard feet and can now work on any surface. He had been worked barefoot at 3 and 4 and was never comfortable on stones, so with him this started at around the age of that filly.

 

[cptrayes]

DISCUSS :

Can all horses go barefoot?

No, some have medical conditions which I believe require shoes, like pedal bone fracture, keratoma or severe coronary band damage that requires stabilisation.

Can most horses go barefoot?

Probably not. Many people are not in a position to provide what their particular horse needs to go barefoot. For example, some horses could not hack out on stones at the weekend if they did not also get consistent levels of work during the week. Owners who work full time often cannot provide that and shoes are a good alternative for them. Some horses don't do well in wet turnout. Ditto shoes. There are many more examples.


Is "my horse just can't go barefoot" ever correct?

Probably, occasionally. But until you have perfectly balanced your horses diet by analysing every field he grazes and every batch of hay that is delivered, and balanced his work and living conditions to his own particular needs, and had him tested for insulin resistence, EMS and EPSM and Cushings, you just cannot tell whether your horse could work barefoot or not.

This is one of the big sticking points between the "barefoot brigade" and the "barefoot brigade are evil/dangerous brigade".

The best someone with a horse which is sore without shoes can usually say is "in the circumstances in which I have to, or choose to, keep him, my horse cannot work barefoot". And that is fine. In that case, shoe.

There is no personal criticism implied in this. Lots of people, particularly in livery stables and working full time, simply haven't got the chance to give their horse what it would need to work barefoot.

And THAT is why we keep on arguing with those of you who say "it depends on the horse". It does, but not in the way you mean it.

One big problem is that for all the dozens of times I have heard "some horses can do it and some can't" I have only ever ONCE come across an example where the owner of a footie one has tuned the diet, the work, the turnout in the way a committed barefooter would.

And the real frustration in these discussions is that we are working our socks off and emptying our purses to find out how to tune our horses to enable them to work barefoot, as we believe nature intended, and yet when we talk about it we are attacked for "accusing" other people of neglecting their horses.

We can't win, can we?


ps how can you tell it's raining ?

 

[tallyho!]

My horses are fit and healthy, thank you.

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really.

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting.
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?

Who said that? Who insulted you? As far as I can see you have been the only one here dishing out the insults.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Lol i would be better to keep out of this discussion. Might just watch from the sidelines lol.

 

[cptrayes]

We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?

I am reasonably certain that the stats for a successful return to previous levels of work unmedicated, even as a hack, with a shod and medicated rehab is less than 20%.

For Rockley Farm, the success rate with horses which are already among the 80% for which those treatments failed completely, with the horse not in work at all, is 80%. So 4 times as many, even though they were ones who had already failed to recover.
*******
A barefoot rehab at home with a trimmer or farrier costs less than conventional shoeing.

A rehab with remedial shoes and medication costs thousands of pounds, unless you are insured where it may only cost hundreds for the shoes and insurance excess.
*******
Remedial shoes, heart bars or egg bars, are a total pain in the a*rse on a turned out horse and you are lucky to get through a week without one being pulled off.

Barefoot horses never pull off a shoe.
**********
How long did your rehab take to return to full work?

Many Rockley rehabs (and don't forget these are horses who have already failed with conventional treatment) go cross country jumping or hunting with their owner on the day they go to pick them up, generally between 3 and 4 months. My rehab did a farm ride with jumps at 14 weeks.
***********

 

[Changes]

Our rehab took about 4 weeks to become fully sound, and was competing again within the same season. I didn't chart it. He was jumping Grade 'C' and Nov BHTA as it was then. The cost was nowhere near what you suggest.

I am reasonably certain that the stats for a successful return to previous levels of work unmedicated, even as a hack, with a shod and medicated rehab is less than 20%.

Where did you find the stats for that, please? I'd like very much to see them. As I would the veterinary proof for liver damage causing sweet itch that supposedly materialised on this thread.

I'm glad that you now admit that not every horse can go barefoot, because that's not what you said earlier on the thread. Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

 

[Changes]

Who said that? Who insulted you?

If the cap fits..........