Oliver Townend Fence 4 (Shallow Springs)

[stangs]

Do you really think it would be practical to have the riders counting how many times they've used a whip? I'd rather they focused on riding the course.

The limit shouldn’t be such that riders have to count to stay under, but rather such that it dissuades riders from relying on the stick to get through a horse on a seriously tiring horse, and using it for most jumps. Somehow jockeys remember how many times they’ve used the stick and still manage to finish the race…

If it’s impractical for the sport to implement rules that could benefit the horses’ welfare and improve public outlook on the sport, then there’s no future for eventing.

 

[ihatework]

Do you really think it would be practical to have the riders counting how many times they've used a whip? I'd rather they focused on riding the course.

Of course it’s practical and feasible.
If you don’t get the response you need from one or two then it shouldn’t be an open book to keep using it.

Elf they have padded whips just like race jockeys. Generally used immediately after a fence, sometimes between. It’s to get a horse back in front of the leg and is essential to get the horse in the right mindset to jump those types of fences.

With the big caveat that it’s essentially a get out of jail card, but the rider has to make a judgement call on safety to continue.

 

[Wishfilly]

Wasn't really picking on him in particular, just his was the one I saw and thought most people would remember given he's a big name so used it to bring the topic up.

Your thread title and first post are solely about him, though? So what's the actual topic you'd like to discuss?

 

[Horses_Rule]

Have you Evented at any level? The smack as you call it is a reminder to the horse to respond to the leg. It is in a XC round akin to using a dressage whip on the flat to reinforce the leg aid. A top level event horse has to be adjustable and responsive otherwise that is when mistakes happen sometimes resulting in falls.

Was there any need for such a comment? You don’t know me or my background so it’s very unjustified. I am merely making an observation and clearly other people saw it too. In my comment I was not ranting and raving about stick use it was an observation so absolutely no need to jump down my throat.

 

[NinjaPony]

Acknowledging that the horse was fine, trotted up sound etc, I still think that kind of incident should result in elimination….Yes Oli was clearly able to feel that the horse was fine, but I don’t think we should be relying on that judgement, particularly at lower levels and I don’t think it sets a great example for the sport.
Not having a go at OT, just thinking that the rules should be changed more generally, to protect the horse. Better safe than sorry in these cases…

 

[Wishfilly]

Acknowledging that the horse was fine, trotted up sound etc, I still think that kind of incident should result in elimination….Yes Oli was clearly able to feel that the horse was fine, but I don’t think we should be relying on that judgement, particularly at lower levels and I don’t think it sets a great example for the sport.
Not having a go at OT, just thinking that the rules should be changed more generally, to protect the horse. Better safe than sorry in these cases…

How would you define it for the rules? Should a horse that goes down on its knees also be eliminated?

I do think it was a particularly hairy moment, but was ultimately considered not to be a horse fall (bearing in mind they initially did eliminate him).

At the moment the rule is:
A Horse is considered to have fallen when, at the same time, both its shoulder and quarters have
touched either the ground or the obstacle and the ground or when it is trapped in a fence in such
a way that it is unable to proceed without assistance or is liable to injure itself.

 

[NinjaPony]

I think I’d probably like to give more powers to the stewards, I’m not an eventing rule expert by any means but I think generally speaking if a horse crumples/collapses significantly after a fence, they should be eliminated. I think it would stop some of the exhausted/tired mistakes later down the line. OT got away with it and seems like no harm done, but I don’t think it’s something that should be happening. Better to be overcautious and protect the horse, and it’s easier to make that call from the ground.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think I’d probably like to give more powers to the stewards, I’m not an eventing rule expert by any means but I think generally speaking if a horse crumples/collapses significantly after a fence, they should be eliminated. I think it would stop some of the exhausted/tired mistakes later down the line. OT got away with it and seems like no harm done, but I don’t think it’s something that should be happening. Better to be overcautious and protect the horse, and it’s easier to make that call from the ground.

I get where you are coming from completely, but I think people would be very reluctant to stop a round half way round unless there was a very clearly defined rule. That was sort of why OT was allowed to continue anyway- if they are unsure then riders are allowed to continue, rather than stop them and have them contest it.

FWIW, I do think saying that the shoulder OR hindquarters touching the floor would be enough, and not hugely open to interpretation.

I do actually think they are very reluctant to stop horses on course- and I can understand why- but perhaps the current "benefit of the doubt" situation needs looking at?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think the elimination was because initially the FJs thought that not enough of the horse had gone through the flags to count as clearing it. If it was deemed a run out, he should have represented before continuing with the rest of the course, or be eliminated. A tricky call for the FJs, it was pretty close.

I had expected the horse to be sore the next day, but he was grand.

 

[NinjaPony]

It’s a tricky issue, and I get why they are reluctant to stop people, but I do think that needs to be readdressed and stewards handed greater discretionary powers/clarification of rules to protect the horses. To use dressage as an example, blood is an instant elimination, no exceptions. It can be very tough if it’s the case of a bitten tongue, but it’s there to protect the horse and the rider has to accept it.

 

[ponynutz]

Acknowledging that the horse was fine, trotted up sound etc, I still think that kind of incident should result in elimination….Yes Oli was clearly able to feel that the horse was fine, but I don’t think we should be relying on that judgement, particularly at lower levels and I don’t think it sets a great example for the sport.
Not having a go at OT, just thinking that the rules should be changed more generally, to protect the horse. Better safe than sorry in these cases…

This topic for people asking ^

 

[ponynutz]

I think the elimination was because initially the FJs thought that not enough of the horse had gone through the flags to count as clearing it. If it was deemed a run out, he should have represented before continuing with the rest of the course, or be eliminated. A tricky call for the FJs, it was pretty close.

I had expected the horse to be sore the next day, but he was grand.

This is true ... did turn out well and I actually loved his round in the SJ - thought he rode brilliantly and had an unlucky pole

 

[Wishfilly]

I think the elimination was because initially the FJs thought that not enough of the horse had gone through the flags to count as clearing it. If it was deemed a run out, he should have represented before continuing with the rest of the course, or be eliminated. A tricky call for the FJs, it was pretty close.

I had expected the horse to be sore the next day, but he was grand.

Theoretically, regardless of reason, they could have stopped him on course though.

I agree it was very close to being a run out though.

It’s a tricky issue, and I get why they are reluctant to stop people, but I do think that needs to be readdressed and stewards handed greater discretionary powers/clarification of rules to protect the horses. To use dressage as an example, blood is an instant elimination, no exceptions. It can be very tough if it’s the case of a bitten tongue, but it’s there to protect the horse and the rider has to accept it.

But that's not discretionary- it's a very clear rule. The ground jury do already have powers to stop people who are riding dangerously, although it does have to be over a series of jumps (but really, given the time involved to make that decision you'd probably see them over a couple of jumps at least?). But I think using your discretion and potentially depriving someone of a top 10 finish is a very difficult call to make.

I think if you want to see more horses pulled up on course/eliminated, there has to be a very clear rule e.g. if X, you must do Y- because otherwise you put the ground jury in difficult situations.

 

[NinjaPony]

That’s why I suggested both options. Perhaps it should be the rule that if either the shoulders or the quarters touch the ground, the horse is eliminated.

 

[scats]

Personally I felt he should have stopped, but then I’m not a professional eventer. I thought the horse would be sore the next day but maybe actually completing the course helped it not to be.

 

[stangs]

At risk of sounding exceptionally suspicious, is there a drug test before/after the second trot up?

 

[ycbm]

People are saying that a rider of that standard would know if the horse was injured, but I don't see how that is true when adrenaline coursing through the horse will prevent pain from registering.

Is there any video of the incident, I haven't seen it and I can't find any.
.

 

[milliepops]

it's probably on that awful youtube compilation of falls and other penalties. it may also be on the BBC highlights which is on iplayer now.

 

[Tiddlypom]

.

it's probably on that awful youtube compilation of falls and other penalties. it may also be on the BBC highlights which is on iplayer now.

It is on the 10 mins youtube video, inc a slow mo replay. Can't find the link atm, but its linked on the Badminton XC discussion thread.

 

[TheMule]

There's a video on the Eventing-Uk Facebook page that has been shared off TikTok

 

[meleeka]

People are saying that a rider of that standard would know if the horse was injured, but I don't see how that is true when adrenaline coursing through the horse will prevent pain from registering.

Is there any video of the incident, I haven't seen it and I can't find any.
.

https://fb.watch/cUvDfbq9Ml/

 

[nutjob]

People are saying that a rider of that standard would know if the horse was injured, but I don't see how that is true when adrenaline coursing through the horse will prevent pain from registering.

I agree, the footage of Amy Tryon continuing on Le Samurai was shocking. Riders don't always do the right thing.

 

[ycbm]

Well that's ugly. I can see why he carries on, I can't see why it wasn't an elimination, the only reason the horse's quarters went between the flags was that he'd knocked the flag aside!

ETA have checked the rule and 50% of the horses body has to be outside the fence as originally flagged for elimination, so I agree it's not an elimination.
.

 

[TheMule]

I agree, the footage of Amy Tryon continuing on Le Samurai was shocking. Riders don't always do the right thing.

No, they don’t, but the vitriol that she received via the internet was most likely a major factor in her deterioration in mental health and eventual death.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I don't think it was an elimination, 3 out of 4 legs made the height of the jump initially and more than 50% of the horse went between the flags. I also don't condemn him for carrying on, he felt that the horse felt okay and it likely would have had a stop at the next fence or he would have felt the horse backing off if it was in pain, just like the Australian horse did.

What I don't think is acceptable is to sit on your horse once it has refused and isn't moving, but standing at the jump, remove your hand from your rein and really put your whole body into giving it a crack with the whip twice, just like that woman did (forgotten the name) at the drop into the water when her horse said no. That isn't encouraging it, or giving it momentum, or waking it up - it's telling it off and that doesn't and shouldn't work. A pop on the shoulder/bum as they're riding away to say 'wake up, get infront of my leg' I have no issue with.

 

[ycbm]

I agree, the footage of Amy Tryon continuing on Le Samurai was shocking. Riders don't always do the right thing.

The rider being mistaken about a tired or injured horse wasn't my point. With adrenaline coursing through the horse and preventing pain from registering, it could be sound when it was actually injured.
.

 

[Polos Mum]

Really? I wouldn't have thought you would/should have needed a back hander eventing! Especially with professionals at that level.

It's one sport I know next to nothing about and don't watch so I am actually surprised about that!

There was one young lady in particular that I saw in person - didn't do herself any favours at all. The BBC then had it on their catch up programme which I was surprised about. I would not want that display on public view if I were her - we all get caught up in the heat of the moment occasionally and regret it very soon after

 

[Velcrobum]

For all of you asking about stopping riders on tired horses. The ground jury is usually positioned in control where they monitor the XC TV feed and listen to the fence judge feed back on the radio net. They can and will tell a Fence judge to stop a combination if they consider them dangerous or the horse overly tired. The flag used is the same as the one for stopping a combination if there has been an issue further along in the course like falls, damaged fence etc. In national competition (normal BE) the XC controller also has the authority to stop a combination as does the BE steward. In both FEI and national competition there are sanctions available to "punish" the rider in the rules.

 

[Orangehorse]

Acknowledging that the horse was fine, trotted up sound etc, I still think that kind of incident should result in elimination….Yes Oli was clearly able to feel that the horse was fine, but I don’t think we should be relying on that judgement, particularly at lower levels and I don’t think it sets a great example for the sport.
Not having a go at OT, just thinking that the rules should be changed more generally, to protect the horse. Better safe than sorry in these cases…

O come on. The horse ws

I don't think it was an elimination, 3 out of 4 legs made the height of the jump initially and more than 50% of the horse went between the flags. I also don't condemn him for carrying on, he felt that the horse felt okay and it likely would have had a stop at the next fence or he would have felt the horse backing off if it was in pain, just like the Australian horse did.

What I don't think is acceptable is to sit on your horse once it has refused and isn't moving, but standing at the jump, remove your hand from your rein and really put your whole body into giving it a crack with the whip twice, just like that woman did (forgotten the name) at the drop into the water when her horse said no. That isn't encouraging it, or giving it momentum, or waking it up - it's telling it off and that doesn't and shouldn't work. A pop on the shoulder/bum as they're riding away to say 'wake up, get infront of my leg' I have no issue with.

You mean Pippa Funnell

 

[Birker2020]

https://fb.watch/cUvDfbq9Ml/

Wow what an incredible rider