Oliver Townend Fence 4 (Shallow Springs)

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

O come on. The horse ws


You mean Pippa Funnell

I don't, she went through it then retired... it was a young girl, possibly first 5* but if not first she isn't super well known at this level yet. Horse refused, it turned slightly and she cracked it twice and then represented and it still said no then she retired

 

[ihatework]

I don't, she went through it then retired... it was a young girl, possibly first 5* but if not first she isn't super well known at this level yet. Horse refused, it turned slightly and she cracked it twice and then represented and it still said no then she retired

Mollie?
Horse won 5* last year

 

[TheMule]

Mollie?
Horse won 5* last year

?

 

[Ratface]

Townend himself has been penalised for exactly that behaviour, hasn't he?


ETA I have checked and he was warned for that kind of whip used after Badminton 2018 and again after Blair 2018.
.

Indeed he was. I remember being horrified with his brutal whipping of his horse during the 2018 Badminton.
If people behave like that in public, one wonders what they do in private . . .

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Mollie?
Horse won 5* last year

That's the one - my memory clearly fails me in more ways than one! Now you say it I remember the commentator saying she won Luhmuhlen

 

[southerncomfort]

There was one young lady in particular that I saw in person - didn't do herself any favours at all. The BBC then had it on their catch up programme which I was surprised about. I would not want that display on public view if I were her - we all get caught up in the heat of the moment occasionally and regret it very soon after

I know who you mean and I thought the same.

Their is a world of difference in using a whip to sharpen up a horse thats backing off, and raising your arm as high as you can before hitting the horse as hard as you can two or three times. The latter is pure temper I'm afraid. She let herself down there.

 

[Annagain]

That's the one - my memory clearly fails me in more ways than one! Now you say it I remember the commentator saying she won Luhmuhlen

Yes I didn't like that. The horse stopped, she turned away gave him two really good cracks while facing away from the fence then re-presented and he stopped again. Had she been using it to back up her leg on approach to the fence that would be fine but she was hitting him while standing still with their backs to the fence. There was a lot of pressure on her though having won Luhmuhlen at her first 5* as a 23yr old and being touted as the next big thing. I can understand why it happened and have some sympathy for her as well as the horse.

Pippa Funnel had a stop, let him have a little look, re-presented and he went the second time. I don't recall her using her whip at all, a look at it was all he needed (not ideal but she dealt with it well and kindly).

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Yes I didn't like that. The horse stopped, she turned away gave him two really good cracks while facing away from the fence then re-presented and it stopped again. Had she been using it to back up her leg on approach to the fence that would be fine but she was hitting him while standing still with their backs to the fence. There was a lot of pressure on her though having won Luhmuhlen at her first 5* as a 23yr old and being touted as the next big thing. I can understand why it happened and have some sympathy for her as well as the horse.

Pippa Funnel had a stop, let him have a little look, re-presented and he went the second time. I don't recall her using her whip at all, a look at it was all he needed (not ideal but she dealt with it well and kindly).

Absolutely, completely agree. I don't want to condemn her, we are all criminal to feeling the pressure and getting caught up in the moment, but it's not acceptable an dI hope one of her team pulls her aside and says as much!

 

[NinjaPony]

This is another reason why I think the rules need to be clearer and stewards given more powers to pull up inappropriate riding. With adrenaline running high, pressure, nerves, frustration etc, riders don’t always make good decisions in the heat of the moment, and it should be very clear what is and what is not acceptable, so that a good standard of riding can be enforced.

 

[Kat]

There's a real contrast in the way Oliver is discussed compared to other riders. There were several really close calls that people recovered from and continued. Tom Rowland and Possible Mission had an incident that was also very close they picked up a pin penalty and continued with no criticism, I think it was Joris Van Springel who had a similar near miss. Heck Laura and London 52 were only praised for recovering after their sticky moment at the quarry.

Then there was the comment by the commentary team about how it was a shame that Ben Hobday and Shadowman couldn't continue after their fall.

I know that Oliver has been at the centre of controversy before but so have other riders and none attract quite the same hatred as Oliver.

 

[Kat]

I think the incident did show that the "benefit of the doubt" perhaps isn't a great principle.

It is pretty poor for someone to be in a position where they don't know whether they have cleared a fence or not. I'm not sure what the answer is but the choice to jump again and risk being eliminated for jumping the fence twice or to continue and risk being eliminated for failing to jump the jump is an impossible situation for a rider.

Surely better to have a penalty that can be added or removed without elimination so that everyone is clear when they can continue or not.

 

[Peglo]

That fall did look really shocking. Glad all was ok.

I don’t know the rules but my first instinct after something like that would be to jump off and walk him out. Obviously he couldn’t get off but would he be able to ride him in walk for a bit to check for lameness? Or should you always be going forward at speed? Just out of curiosity

 

[05jackd]

I think the incident did show that the "benefit of the doubt" perhaps isn't a great principle.

It is pretty poor for someone to be in a position where they don't know whether they have cleared a fence or not. I'm not sure what the answer is but the choice to jump again and risk being eliminated for jumping the fence twice or to continue and risk being eliminated for failing to jump the jump is an impossible situation for a rider.

Surely better to have a penalty that can be added or removed without elimination so that everyone is clear when they can continue or not.

Having judged BE and actually had this exact same argument with one of the riders mentioned in this thread - whether the horse is inside the flags can be very tricky especially on courses which are not videoed to the same level as Badminton.

Ultimately had he represented he is admitting that he felt the horse had run out and thus is accepting the penalties, however if he continues it is simply an argument to be had with the ground jury later and they may or may not see it in his favour. If you're aiming for a pole position you cant afford to give away points so really there was probably only one option in his mind. But in this instance I would agree that the horse did NOT run out.

 

[Annagain]

There's a real contrast in the way Oliver is discussed compared to other riders. There were several really close calls that people recovered from and continued. Tom Rowland and Possible Mission had an incident that was also very close they picked up a pin penalty and continued with no criticism, I think it was Joris Van Springel who had a similar near miss. Heck Laura and London 52 were only praised for recovering after their sticky moment at the quarry.

Then there was the comment by the commentary team about how it was a shame that Ben Hobday and Shadowman couldn't continue after their fall.

I know that Oliver has been at the centre of controversy before but so have other riders and none attract quite the same hatred as Oliver.

I agree. Some of the criticism of him in the past (e.g. the very tired horse a few years ago) is valid but a lot of the social media pile-ons on him are horrible and go way beyond criticising his actions. I've not always been his biggest fan but don't think he did anything wrong on Saturday - having walked the course there's quite a long gallop between the quarry and the next fence - which was one of the easier fences on the course. He had plenty of time to feel whether there was anything wrong and the next fence would have told him how the horse was feeling.

The fact he got through the final inspection and went on to jump a very good SJ round shows he was fine.

 

[Kat]

Having judged BE and actually had this exact same argument with one of the riders mentioned in this thread - whether the horse is inside the flags can be very tricky especially on courses which are not videoed to the same level as Badminton.

Ultimately had he represented he is admitting that he felt the horse had run out and thus is accepting the penalties, however if he continues it is simply an argument to be had with the ground jury later and they may or may not see it in his favour. If you're aiming for a pole position you cant afford to give away points so really there was probably only one option in his mind. But in this instance I would agree that the horse did NOT run out.

Yes very tricky decisions.

I think he cleared the fence too. The trailing leg left the ground, had it been a wider fence rather than a corner he would have slithered over, it wasn't a run out, the horse jumped.

 

[Polos Mum]

I know who you mean and I thought the same.

Their is a world of difference in using a whip to sharpen up a horse thats backing off, and raising your arm as high as you can before hitting the horse as hard as you can two or three times. The latter is pure temper I'm afraid. She let herself down there.

She came past us in the stand maybe 50 meters before the turn to the fence shouting at the horse and smacking on the shoulder so she knew he wouldn't go over that particular fence or they'd had a big problem the fence before - either way it wasn't endearing riding

 

[Velcrobum]

Yes very tricky decisions.

I think he cleared the fence too. The trailing leg left the ground, had it been a wider fence rather than a corner he would have slithered over, it wasn't a run out, the horse jumped.

The ground Jury obviously agreed as he was reinstated without penalty. Fences like this have a judge with usually an i-pad or similar positioned to film a head on view for this type of situation. The ground jury will only accept official video evidence when making decisions.

I wonder how many on this thread who seem to have strong views on this have actually competed BE? I have to Novice level and schooled over Intermediate XC fences before anyone challenges me for asking the question. I also volunteer having done many roles including in XC control so have experience of "behind the scenes" and how things are done. I have been in control when a decision to stop an unsafe rider was made so it does happen.

 

[Ossy2]

I’m struggling to understand why Oil needs a whole thread dedicating to his incident? Yes he’s had some controversy in the past and he’s not a fan favourite for various reasons but I just don’t get the constant vendetta against him in particular. There are plenty of examples of where others have had sticky moments, how did Andrew Nicholson get his nick name of Mr stickability?? Even London 52 left a leg, should Laura have stopped to check him or continued and leave it to feel?
I’ve seen oli at local events pull up horses as they haven’t felt right.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I wonder how many on this thread who seem to have strong views on this have actually competed BE?

Is this actually relevant, though it seems to make you feel superior to those who haven't?

No, I haven't competed at BE, but I have fence judged for BE many times and have reported riders for riding tired horses and for misuse of the whip. I have written for dressage and done XC timekeeping. I once had to stop Jeanette Brakewell on course when another international rider had a bad fall at the fence after ours - she was lovely and was just concerned about the fallen rider btw.

Mollie Summerland's three hard cracks with the whip to her horse after he stopped at fence 17 but before she had re presented him were unacceptable - her temper got the better of her - and IMHO she deserves to be sanctioned.

Oli rode superbly, it was the horse who made the mistake. Questioning whether the horse should have been pulled up by the ground jury is fair comment though - maybe the glance off looked worse to onlookers than it felt to the rider.

 

[TPO]

I thought Oli rode two great rounds.

SS took off a stride early of his own accord; maybe he misread the fence/groundline or maybe he was feeling "enthusiastic", either way I don't see how it can be attributed to Oli's riding in a negative way. If anything he should be applauded for his superhuman core strength and balance!

I'm sure Oli more than anyone is aware that there are eyes on him, especially at Badminton, and would have pulled the horse up should he have felt anything off. As it was the horse had a cracking round despite a long hold.

 

[AmyMay]

I wonder how many on this thread who seem to have strong views on this have actually competed BE?

Ah, you can only comment if you’ve participated argument….

 

[TPO]

Ah, you can only comment if you’ve participated argument….

Didn't take long did it ?

 

[Kat]

The ground Jury obviously agreed as he was reinstated without penalty. Fences like this have a judge with usually an i-pad or similar positioned to film a head on view for this type of situation. The ground jury will only accept official video evidence when making decisions.

I wonder how many on this thread who seem to have strong views on this have actually competed BE? I have to Novice level and schooled over Intermediate XC fences before anyone challenges me for asking the question. I also volunteer having done many roles including in XC control so have experience of "behind the scenes" and how things are done. I have been in control when a decision to stop an unsafe rider was made so it does happen.

It is really interesting to hear from people who have been involved in an official capacity. Thank you.

I don't think you have to have competed BE to have an opinion. Certainly I don't BE and only jump little stuff these days. I'm no expert trainer either, but I can still have an opinion, although some people don't seem able to consider that riders at this level are in quite a different position to us mortals at unaffiliated.

 

[ester]

I was surprised that he didn’t trot the horse for a few strides before continuing, and it might have looked. better? but I guess you don’t then make the time.

 

[NinjaPony]

Also, I don’t think this decision needs to focus entirely on OT. As I’ve said, my concern is less for the OTs, who can make those judgement calls much more quickly, than for other riders who might lack that experience. We have seen this kind of incident before, but this was quite dramatic as the horse went down onto its quarters. I think a rule clarifying that if the shoulders or quarters hit the floor it’s a fall would prevent horses continuing round the course with a potential injury.

 

[cauda equina]

Ah, you can only comment if you’ve participated argument….

How many of us have been round Badminton?

 

[Tiddlypom]

How many of us have been round Badminton?

I've walked the course on foot many times - does that count ??

 

[tristar]

from 2 strides out which should have been 3 strides out to make the jump the horse was never going to make it, he should have circled away or stopped, the horse looks to me to have hurt its right hind the way it immobilizes it and turns swiveling the leg

if a horse did something like that in the field without bashing itself on wood, normally you would let it stand to allow the animal to register how it feels, inspect then walk round carefully to see how it is, in eventing you head on the next huge obstacle regardless

 

[Patterdale]

from 2 strides out which should have been 3 strides out to make the jump the horse was never going to make it, he should have circled away or stopped, the horse looks to me to have hurt its right hind the way it immobilizes it and turns swiveling the leg

if a horse did something like that in the field without bashing itself on wood, normally you would let it stand to allow the animal to register how it feels, inspect then walk round carefully to see how it is, in eventing you head on the next huge obstacle regardless

The horse took a stride out, there was room for another and it chose not to take it.

The rider carried on, went clear and finished with a sound horse. Which suggests that he made the right decision doesn’t it. Not surprising given that he’s a very experienced rider who had the added advantage of being actually sat on the horse at the time.

OH for the days when people were allowed to make split second decisions without them being endlessly picked over by strangers for days afterwards. Social media has a lot to answer for.

 

[Patterdale]

Of course you don’t have to have competed BE to have an opinion, anyone can have an opinion. But the opinion of those who know what they’re talking about will always be worth more in any sphere.