Oliver Townend Fence 4 (Shallow Springs)

[teapot]

The ground jury bases itself in XC control and watches all the video feed including feed that we did not see. They have overall control of the competition, can and do stop competitors they deem to be unsafe. Fortunately the introduction of minimum eligibility requirements (MERs) means that people who might be stepping up before they are ready now cannot happen as has happened in the past.

The FEI steward is in charge of sanctions (yellow and red cards).

The fence judge can only see what has happened in front of them which might be the only blip of the round. Badminton is the only event that does not use experienced fence judges at every fence unlike Burghley. There is a group of highly experienced fence judges who are utilised at quite a few FEI competitions abroad. A lot of the fence judges are members of Beaufort Hunt who have no real experience of fence judging. That is behind the scenes information not opinion.

Are you sure?

I think some, perhaps not all, of the fence judges do the 4*/5* events. There’s too much at stake to have a fence judge virgin at the biggest event in the world surely? The fact their briefings are not 20mins over a bacon sandwich and a YouTube video says a lot in terms of ‘you’re not doing a BE80’. Maybe some do need it? Seems odd that you could have funding/team selection impacted on by someone with limited fence judging experience?

The stewards are certainly Beaufort Hunt members, but not all the fence judges will be.

 

[Lexi_]

I think some, perhaps not all, of the fence judges do a lot of the 3*/4*/5* events. There’s too much at stake to have a fence judge virgin at the biggest event in the world. The fact their briefings are not 20mins over a bacon sandwich and a YouTube video says a lot.

The stewards are certainly Beaufort Hunt members, but not all the fence judges will be.

Not virgins necessarily, but from what I’ve heard, most of the Badminton vols will only do that event. I know one person (hugely experienced) who did it for the first time there this year and she had basically given up hope of ever being accepted because it’s such a closed shop.

Prob breaking trade secrets here but the Blenheim briefing usually is just a video in advance and then on the day you collect your kit and away you go. No real briefing at all. Albeit the organiser knows the team well there and they do tend to be very experienced and do multiple days a year…

 

[Velcrobum]

Are you sure?

I think some, perhaps not all, of the fence judges do the 4*/5* events. There’s too much at stake to have a fence judge virgin at the biggest event in the world surely? The fact their briefings are not 20mins over a bacon sandwich and a YouTube video says a lot in terms of ‘you’re not doing a BE80’. Maybe some do need it? Seems odd that you could have funding/team selection impacted on by someone with limited fence judging experience?

The stewards are certainly Beaufort Hunt members, but not all the fence judges will be.

Yes. There are experienced fence judges used at the very technical fences where experience is definitely needed but all the others will be hunt members. As I said inside information.

 

[ponynutz]

Why don't people like Oliver Townend? I must have missed something!

I love Oliver Townend - was just using his example to bring up the topic of what classes as an elimination and should they continue after a semi-fall as people are most likely to remember his incident given he is a big name.

 

[Velcrobum]

Not virgins necessarily, but from what I’ve heard, most of the Badminton vols will only do that event. I know one person (hugely experienced) who did it for the first time there this year and she had basically given up hope of ever being accepted because it’s such a closed shop.

Prob breaking trade secrets here but the Blenheim briefing usually is just a video in advance and then on the day you collect your kit and away you go. No real briefing at all. Albeit the organiser knows the team well there and they do tend to be very experienced and do multiple days a year…

Badminton is indeed a very closed shop volunteer wise!!

The Blenheim fence judge organiser has an experienced team that she uses not just at Blenheim buts lots of other events where she is XC fence judge organiser. A lot of that team are the people who FJ abroad (also Olympics) that I mentioned in #120.

 

[Lexi_]

Badminton is indeed a very closed shop volunteer wise!!

The Blenheim fence judge organiser has an experienced team that she uses not just at Blenheim buts lots of other events where she is XC fence judge organiser. A lot of that team are the people who FJ abroad (also Olympics) that I mentioned in #120.

Yup, I’m one of the team ? Sadly can’t afford to self fund the volunteering trips abroad but maybe one day!

 

[Wishfilly]

Is it really so ‘obscene’ to wonder how a horse managed to trot-up sound after such an awful fall? I'm not "Oli-bashing" - my opinion would stand regardless of the rider. Rather, I’m very surprised that there isn’t a drug test between the XC and SJ. There’s certainly incentive to slip some bute in a horse’s feed if you think you’ve got a chance at winning. Let’s not pretend that all professional riders prioritise the horse’s welfare above the competition.
.

FWIW my pony once crashed into a metal gate in the field, fell flat out, and trotted up sound that day, the day after and was declared sound by a vet- sometimes horses are just tougher than we give them credit for.

I also think given the amount of time he was held for, someone would have spotted if the horse was unsound at that stage...

 

[Tiddlypom]

There is a whole team of professionals at Badminton who do their best to keep their charges in top form throughout the competition, including vets and physios. This was posted by my equine physio.

https://www.facebook.com/128788887189964/posts/4926893510712787

Bute et al has been rightly prohibited during the competition for many years. There is still a lot to be done legally and ethically to help a horse who might be rather tired and maybe stiff after XC to be bright and fresh the next day. The horses don't just get put back in their stables and pulled out a few minutes before the Sunday trot up.

That said, seven horses who completed the XC this year were not presented at the final trot up, so were out of the event.

 

[Wishfilly]

To respond to the general point of why people don't like Oliver T, a lot of people will point to when he was on for the Rolex Grand Slam, and used the whip quite heavily on a horse that was clearly tired coming home (at Badminton). BUT I think other riders have received yellow cards for similar actions (with less at stake, not that it matters) and not really received the same public backlash.

He was quite outspoken at the start of his career about certain issues, and I think this led some people involved in eventing to take against him- and so any time he does something wrong it is magnified, whereas other riders who may seem more personable have similar events overlooked.

He's also, perhaps, "not quite" from a typical eventing background, which I think he has felt strongly at times, so he can sometimes seem like a bit of an outsider.

I also think that internal politics about teams etc have sometimes cast him in a bit of a negative light.

 

[ycbm]

I'm still struggling to understand people insisting that a horse with no early evidence of injury can't be injured. Does anyone else remember riding once a week on Saturday and being absolutely crippled by pain from soft tissue overuse of the thighs on Monday afternoon?
.

 

[palo1]

To respond to the general point of why people don't like Oliver T, a lot of people will point to when he was on for the Rolex Grand Slam, and used the whip quite heavily on a horse that was clearly tired coming home (at Badminton). BUT I think other riders have received yellow cards for similar actions (with less at stake, not that it matters) and not really received the same public backlash.

He was quite outspoken at the start of his career about certain issues, and I think this led some people involved in eventing to take against him- and so any time he does something wrong it is magnified, whereas other riders who may seem more personable have similar events overlooked.

He's also, perhaps, "not quite" from a typical eventing background, which I think he has felt strongly at times, so he can sometimes seem like a bit of an outsider.

I also think that internal politics about teams etc have sometimes cast him in a bit of a negative light.

This!! I think that Oliver Townend typifies both the best and the worst of eventing tbh so he can be quite a divisive character in terms of his public identity. He is very much a self made man and that means he has had to use horses to make his way up the ladder; that hasn't always been what people want to think horse sport is about. He is clearly someone with strong opinions, unafraid to voice them and that too possibly irritates both the establishment and the eventing press and public who are generally pretty conservative in their views and alliances. He is a very strong rider and hugely competitive so when he is competing, his primary goal is to win. For some people that makes uncomfortable viewing but I bet his owners love it. I like the fact that he is a world class rider having utilised his talents and acumen - I love the fact that he has demonstrated it IS possible to get to the top in eventing without established money and connections. I am slightly less fond of the way that being so competitive has meant he has, on occasion, ridden horses in a way that is definitely not pretty or with their immediate best interests at heart. I think he can come across in interviews as arrogant (and he may well be) but I also like the fact that he does not engage in 'humble bragging'. I don't have personal views about him either way - that is just how he comes across to me.

 

[Goldenstar]

Is it really so ‘obscene’ to wonder how a horse managed to trot-up sound after such an awful fall? I'm not "Oli-bashing" - my opinion would stand regardless of the rider. Rather, I’m very surprised that there isn’t a drug test between the XC and SJ. There’s certainly incentive to slip some bute in a horse’s feed if you think you’ve got a chance at winning. Let’s not pretend that all professional riders prioritise the horse’s welfare above the competition.
.

You made what could be considered a direct allegation about a particular rider, without having any grounds for doing so, so yes I think obscene fits.

I agree with RR it’s not on make allegations of that type there’s a lot of random and compulsory dope testing at five star events .
There’s no way it’s worth slipping a horse some bute at that level of competition.
The dope testing is extremely sensitive now and anything from herbs in the horses fields at home ,traces poopy seeds on the grooms hands after a sandwich and being stroked by people taking some strong medications can make horses fail tests .

 

[Penguin_Toes]

To respond to the general point of why people don't like Oliver T, a lot of people will point to when he was on for the Rolex Grand Slam, and used the whip quite heavily on a horse that was clearly tired coming home (at Badminton). BUT I think other riders have received yellow cards for similar actions (with less at stake, not that it matters) and not really received the same public backlash.

He was quite outspoken at the start of his career about certain issues, and I think this led some people involved in eventing to take against him- and so any time he does something wrong it is magnified, whereas other riders who may seem more personable have similar events overlooked.

He's also, perhaps, "not quite" from a typical eventing background, which I think he has felt strongly at times, so he can sometimes seem like a bit of an outsider.

I also think that internal politics about teams etc have sometimes cast him in a bit of a negative light.

Oh I didn't know that. What was he outspoken about?

It all sounds a bit like Lewis Hamilton - off the scale competitive, outspoken and from not quite the same background as the norm.

I quite like it when people shake things up a bit

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm still struggling to understand people insisting that a horse with no early evidence of injury can't be injured. Does anyone else remember riding once a week on Saturday and being absolutely crippled by pain from soft tissue overuse of the thighs on Monday afternoon?
.

Tbf, I'm not saying Swallow Springs is definitely fine, but just that it's a huge leap to say he was doped. If it were my horse, I'd have pulled up- but I'm the opposite end of the scale in terms of competitiveness (not that I'd have stayed on!).

Oh I didn't know that. What was he outspoken about?

It all sounds a bit like Lewis Hamilton - off the scale competitive, outspoken and from not quite the same background as the norm.

I remember him being quite outspoken on the way teams were selected, and also about how a lot of people at the top of eventing had a lot of family support etc to get to where they were.

This article from 2010 maybe gives a bit of an idea of how he was viewed earlier in his career: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/interview-oliver-townend?page=4

 

[Goldenstar]

The only people who can stop people mid round is as far I remember are the members of the GJ .
If you wanted to open that out you would have to have professional stewards where trained and paid to do the job .
The GJ are extremely busy on xc day they simply could not take on any more of that type of assessment.
The fact that the horse in question finished the xc passed the trot up and competed the competition means their was probably no reason to stop the horse even if there where many more professionals monitoring.

I have ridden at four star ( it was three then ) it’s an extreme experience I never had the desire to go on and find out what it was like at the next level .
It all happens very quickly when things go wrong and it’s a roller coaster your riding every step ,the smell of the horse sweating the noise the crowds it’s nothing like any thing else it seems to take a long time and be very quick all at the same time .
I would never had to take decisions like Oli did because although I have not seen the footage from what I have read I would have been off horse and on grass .

 

[Upthecreek]

I'm still struggling to understand people insisting that a horse with no early evidence of injury can't be injured. Does anyone else remember riding once a week on Saturday and being absolutely crippled by pain from soft tissue overuse of the thighs on Monday afternoon?
.

Equally I don’t understand people insisting that what happened would definitely have caused an injury so he should have retired there and then rather than continue. It’s 50/50 with something like that I think. These horses are incredibly fit for the job they do so and are worked 6 days a week so comparing them to a human that gets sore from riding once a week is not a valid comparison really.

 

[Wishfilly]

This!! I think that Oliver Townend typifies both the best and the worst of eventing tbh so he can be quite a divisive character in terms of his public identity. He is very much a self made man and that means he has had to use horses to make his way up the ladder; that hasn't always been what people want to think horse sport is about. He is clearly someone with strong opinions, unafraid to voice them and that too possibly irritates both the establishment and the eventing press and public who are generally pretty conservative in their views and alliances. He is a very strong rider and hugely competitive so when he is competing, his primary goal is to win. For some people that makes uncomfortable viewing but I bet his owners love it. I like the fact that he is a world class rider having utilised his talents and acumen - I love the fact that he has demonstrated it IS possible to get to the top in eventing without established money and connections. I am slightly less fond of the way that being so competitive has meant he has, on occasion, ridden horses in a way that is definitely not pretty or with their immediate best interests at heart. I think he can come across in interviews as arrogant (and he may well be) but I also like the fact that he does not engage in 'humble bragging'. I don't have personal views about him either way - that is just how he comes across to me.

I think I agree with all of this!

I think to some extent he's learned how to interview a bit better over the years, at times I quite liked him when he perhaps had "no filter" just because he wasn't saying the same lines as everyone else.

 

[Rowreach]

I would never had to take decisions like Oli did because although I have not seen the footage from what I have read I would have been off horse and on grass .

I think that has hit the nail on the head really, very few of those top level riders even wouldn't have stayed with the horse. But I do think OT is now so aware of public opinion and the flak he's had to endure in the past, that all of his decisions have some level of awareness to them. I think he made the right one on this occasion, and I also think that if he'd felt in the next few strides/over the next fence/during the stoppage when he dismounted and he was able to get a good look at the horse that there was anything remotely wrong, he'd have retired.

I don't claim to know him, but I have met him a couple of times, and I really liked him. He was incredibly kind to my two (then small) kids, when he was very busy and really didn't have to be. He can be blunt, and he's incredibly driven, and he's made some mistakes in the past, but he's paid in spades for that. And he's a bl00dy brilliant rider.

Nobody seems bothered that PF smacked her horse for refusing at the drop into the water, because she's a popular rider who can, it seems, act in the moment and not be condemned by the vast horsey populace. I knew her years ago in PC and if I were picking between her and OT for my dream dinner party, she wouldn't be getting the invite.

 

[NinjaPony]

It’s just about protecting the horses. Those 5*s push horses to the absolute limit and I think that automatic elimination after either both shoulder or both hindquarters (or all!) touch the floor would help to protect horses from injury, same as the blood rule in dressage. That way, horse can be checked over asap. Yes you might get some ‘unfair’ accidents, but by and large I think taking the decision out of the hands of the rider, particularly when under huge pressure, would be a good thing for the sport. OT was lucky, his horse seems to have come away unscathed, and kudos to him and his team for looking after the horse, but that doesn’t mean we can’t learn a lesson from the incident for future events.

 

[Wishfilly]

Nobody seems bothered that PF smacked her horse for refusing at the drop into the water, because she's a popular rider who can, it seems, act in the moment and not be condemned by the vast horsey populace. I knew her years ago in PC and if I were picking between her and OT for my dream dinner party, she wouldn't be getting the invite.

Not having a dig at anyone but on the other thread there are multiple people saying PF was "quietly educating" her horse at this fence

Which just shows how different riders get different reactions.

HM has also had a yellow card for riding similar to one of OT's less stellar pieces of riding, but no-one ever brings that up...

It's not to say that two wrongs make a right, but I feel like OT always gets the criticism, whereas other riders don't.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I'm aware of the closed shop fence judging at Badminton and some other events and it always amazes me. Granted since the improvements in technology and video footage/coverage to control/thr GJ they are arguably less central to proceedings but still important!

Off topic but fwiw Burghley has also allegedly given the fence judge call up to a total novice taking 'the place' of an old guard relative. I mean I read it on here or COTH so it must be true....

 

[Honey08]

The short clip going round the internet of OT at the last part of the quarry fence is a little shocking when viewed alone, but imo there was nothing dreadful about how he rode. It might have been nice if he’d patted the horse, but not the end of the world. He was just workmanlike- doing his job, competing in a top level competition.. He also knows the horse and how much he needs to push for time. Added to this it was a brush fence, so slightly more forgiving when it comes to blips. Regarding the elimination- while the horse’s back end had possibly not gone through the flags, it was surely 100% evident that the horse had taken off and jumped, not run out.

For what it’s worth, we were just in front of the fence where he was pulled up, just a couple of minutes after the quarry incident. He turned round and slowed to a trot right in front of us. The horse was completely sound. He then dismounted and the horse was walked round. There was absolutely no sign of unsoundness and not a scratch on the horse. The horse then happily jumped around the rest of the course. I think OT rode him really well. He didn’t seem a very easy ride overall and OT looked like he worked hard setting him up for fences all the way round.

 

[Honey08]

The ground jury bases itself in XC control and watches all the video feed including feed that we did not see. They have overall control of the competition, can and do stop competitors they deem to be unsafe. Fortunately the introduction of minimum eligibility requirements (MERs) means that people who might be stepping up before they are ready now cannot happen as has happened in the past.

The FEI steward is in charge of sanctions (yellow and red cards).

The fence judge can only see what has happened in front of them which might be the only blip of the round. Badminton is the only event that does not use experienced fence judges at every fence unlike Burghley. There is a group of highly experienced fence judges who are utilised at quite a few FEI competitions abroad. A lot of the fence judges are members of Beaufort Hunt who have no real experience of fence judging. That is behind the scenes information not opinion.

If anyone is on Facebook there is a video on the badminton Facebook page showing inside the Xc control centre. It’s really interesting.

 

[ycbm]

Dupe

 

[ycbm]

Equally I don’t understand people insisting that what happened would definitely have caused an injury so he should have retired there and then rather than continue. It’s 50/50 with something like that I think. These horses are incredibly fit for the job they do so and are worked 6 days a week so comparing them to a human that gets sore from riding once a week is not a valid comparison really.

The horse doesn't do what that one did on course 6 days a week. I think the comparison of injury that doesn't show until later is valid, especially in a horse filled with adrenaline.

I understand why he continued as the choice was his. I'm not 100% sure the choice should have been his.

5* eventing can't afford videos like that flying around social media if it wants to continue, imo
.

 

[spotty_pony]

My general reaction when I saw it was what a brave horse for taking a stride out on a five star course - any horse at that level has to have something about them though to be good and competitive. Secondly I thought, although a lot of people dislike and slate Ollie the stickability over that fence and the recovery is to be commended. He was ever the professional and didn’t even falter! As for the horse being injured, I am sure Ollie knows the horse and as others have said he passed the Vet inspection yesterday so was obviously fine.

 

[lannerch]

I remember the days when you only got eliminated if you had was it two horse falls , if you parted company ( which Oliver didn’t ) you got up grabbed your horse quickly got on and continued .

For all those with a badminton tv pass go and view the eventing highlights from 1994 the year mark Todd won on his catch ride Horton point , your see what I mean.

If swallow springs had been injured I have no doubt Ollie would have detected it and pulled up rather quick , just as jockeys regularly do on the track, who also carry on if everything is fine after a mishap always without the social media witch hunt that seems to follow eventing and particularly poor Ollie .

 

[fetlock]

I've walked the course on foot many times - does that count ??

Depends how many you went round or under

Yes. There are experienced fence judges used at the very technical fences where experience is definitely needed but all the others will be hunt members. As I said inside information.

It was mentioned yesterday by the commentator during the latter stages of the trot-ups about the fence judges, and how the honour of fence judging there was passed down through generations and sometimes it was down to even one particular fence which was inherited as such by the next generation of that family. It was an interesting aside.

 

[Upthecreek]

The horse doesn't do what that one did on course 6 days a week. I think the comparison of injury that doesn't show until later is valid, especially in a horse filled with adrenaline.

I understand why he continued as the choice was his. I'm not 100% sure the choice should have been his.

5* eventing can't afford videos like that flying around social media if it wants to continue, imo
.

Agreed event horses don’t do that 6 days a week, but the work and preparation they do should ensure they are competition fit. Unlike somebody who rides once a week. The horse wasn’t injured and I think if we are getting into the realms of making rules for every possible scenario and taking away the autonomy of the professional rider to react quickly and make snap decisions we’ll be having tonnes of unnecessary eliminations/retirements. I’ve seen worse mishaps than that result in no injury and I’ve seen very slight knocks result in terrible injuries. A difficult call to make in real time on course I think.

 

[palo1]

I think something else to consider is that in the course of getting to the top level Oliver Townend and other riders will have had numerous accidents/incidents with horses or riders making mistakes and you learn from those. Some of those would totally frighten a less driven/skilled/capable rider and may result in giving up/dropping down the challenge. One of the things those riders learn though is both what is a 'bad' incident and what is probably going to be something of a non-event. You will also know that horse inside out; if you suspected that the horse has a hindlimb weakness the incident in question may have made you think pulling up was wise. If not, at that level, under that pressure you probably would, as Oliver Townend did, decide to crack on. He may not have been aware of how bad the incident looked as it may have felt rather different from his perspective too. I also think a lot of people, if they get into a scrape, naturally ride forward - partly to get out of trouble and partly because forwards is generally safer. Once you have done a few strides you either think 'phew' or 'oh no'! If it's the latter you pull up. I do think at the top level the horses are a bit different in terms of their proven soundness, resilience and athleticism. In a less fit horse the same incident could be far worse. But at the top level, because of the value of the industry or sport of eventing, horses are put at risk of significant injury through the challenge they are under, even if that risk is relatively small. If there wasn't huge support for eventing at that level, that challenge, those risks wouldn't exist so we are all involved in that to an extent.