Owner will not accept loan horse back

Dusty85

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OP i feel for you.....BUT... i do feel that you should have got things in order before you picked the horse up in the first place!!

If you arent able to afford hundreds in vets fees, then you should have been more assertive in making sure the horse was insured before you picked it up. What if the horse had injured herself in the trailer on the way home?

You should have also made sure that you had a contract properly drawn up (even if it was typed by you or the owner on a bit of paper!) once again, before you picked the horse up. I also would have refused to take the horse until i had the passport.

I agree with what someone else has said- if youre taking a horse on loan, then you should be responsible for all of the costs- as if she were your own. You are perfectly in your rights to hand the horse back though- this is one of the benefits of the loan agreement after all!!

I guess lesson learnt- even when dealing with friends- make sure things are done properly- friendships will soon fall apart in this sort of situation!!


I hope you get this resolved, and i hope the horse gets the care and love she is deserving off, rather than being unwanted.
 

tegwin12

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OP i feel for you.....BUT... i do feel that you should have got things in order before you picked the horse up in the first place!!

If you arent able to afford hundreds in vets fees, then you should have been more assertive in making sure the horse was insured before you picked it up. What if the horse had injured herself in the trailer on the way home?

You should have also made sure that you had a contract properly drawn up (even if it was typed by you or the owner on a bit of paper!) once again, before you picked the horse up. I also would have refused to take the horse until i had the passport.

I agree with what someone else has said- if youre taking a horse on loan, then you should be responsible for all of the costs- as if she were your own. You are perfectly in your rights to hand the horse back though- this is one of the benefits of the loan agreement after all!!

I guess lesson learnt- even when dealing with friends- make sure things are done properly- friendships will soon fall apart in this sort of situation!!


I hope you get this resolved, and i hope the horse gets the care and love she is deserving off, rather than being unwanted.
Hind sights a brilliant thing.... I wish I had pots of money to keep her it's a bad situation and of course I regret trusting that the passport would be sent and trusting that after the trial a formal contract was written and I regret that both these things didn't happen, it's the situation now I have to deal with not things that should have happened 4 months ago - I am in agreement with your points and accept I was somewhat naive - however the fact remains that she is the owner and the horse is hers and she cannot simply refuse to have her back.
 

tegwin12

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Hind sights a brilliant thing.... I wish I had pots of money to keep her it's a bad situation and of course I regret trusting that the passport would be sent and trusting that after the trial a formal contract was written and I regret that both these things didn't happen, it's the situation now I have to deal with not things that should have happened 4 months ago - I am in agreement with your points and accept I was somewhat naive - however the fact remains that she is the owner and the horse is hers and she cannot simply refuse to have her back.
Oh and re the accident in the trailer scenario id assume until after the trial the owner was responsible for insurance but since learned that she never bothered with it - I did try to sort insurance but the passport was never sent, even though I requested it on several occasions.....
 

OrangePepper

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I feel sorry for the horse. I would suggest that both the op and the owner are clearly not sufficiently responsible to loan or own a horse. There is neither a contract in place and the op has taken the horse away without a passport.
 

Dusty85

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Oh and re the accident in the trailer scenario id assume until after the trial the owner was responsible for insurance but since learned that she never bothered with it - I did try to sort insurance but the passport was never sent, even though I requested it on several occasions.....
Assuming things is what got you into this mess in the first place!!!!
 

tegwin12

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I feel sorry for the horse. I would suggest that both the op and the owner are clearly not sufficiently responsible to loan or own a horse. There is neither a contract in place and the op has taken the horse away without a passport.
I arrive with a transporter to collect and the owner tells me she has left passport at home I travelled a long way to collect - she assured me it would be posted. Re the contract you will see from earlier posts this was promised by the owner but never happened - she as the owner should surely decide on the terms on how she wishes her own animal to be cared for. Re feeling sorry for the horse she is up to her knees in a fluffy shavings bed in a warm stable rugged up with haylage coming out of her ears receiving the best possible care for her condition, her welfare is my priority whilst I have her I simply cannot continue to keep her so she must be returned to her owner - if her owner is unable to provided the level of care she needs then she as the owner is in the position to find the horse a new home - I as the loaner am not, my only option is to return the horse to the OWNER
 

WelshD

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I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue
 

tegwin12

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I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue
Couldn't agree more! And I don't doubt it! I think if I was at the end of the 12 months I'd still be in the same situation
 

Arizahn

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It is not legal to travel a horse without a passport, had you been stopped you would all have been in serious bother! Rather large fine attached, I believe.
 

Dusty85

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I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue
A) if the horse was insured then it wouldnt seem such an urgent issue of getting the horse back to its owner due to lack of funds. The horse would also be getting the correct treatment (whatever that is..i dont know as i don't have any experience of this condition) as neither the loaner or the owner would be paying- the insurance company would

B) if there was a contract then there would be a more legally binding situation, and a clearer way of solving this issue
 

tegwin12

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A) agreed and you will see the problems I have had regarding taking out insurance in earlier posts.

B) agreed and you will see the problems I have had in obtaining a contract in earlier posts

You are not telling me anything I don't already know believe it or not and whilst I appreciate your input it's not entirely constructive or helpful.

I am trying to find a solution that helps the horse myself and the owner and should haves and why didn't you's are not really the answer. What now. Is the question.
 

WelshD

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I think had you had a contract you could throw clauses at this woman all day long and not have her be any more cooperative so i still dont see what good it would have done if thats any consolation

My guess is that she will fold quicker than Superman on laundry day once she gets a solicitors letter

She is trying it on hoping you will back down and keep the horse, you just have to out- stubborn her
 

Queenbee

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Op, apologies that I misread your bond with the horse, I'm also aware that you have paid vets fees, but obviously you don't want to. Yes, a loan is returnable but you agreed to a loan period of a year, I do get where the owner is coming from on this, you agree a 12 month loan, at the end of which you could return or renew, you did not put any get out clause to return the horse inbetween. In addition, you seem to be making out this is the owners fault, crystal balls are a wonderful thing but neither you nor the owner had foresight. Whilst this will ultimately be the owners problem, you took on responsibility for this horse for 12 months and now, because something has gone wrong you want to shirk that. A loan is for the period agreed unless a get out clause has been agreed. Interestingly if the horse was fine and healthy and the owner suddenly said she wanted it back (for whatever reason) I'm sure you would be the first to come on here moaning that she can't do that because you had a 12 month agreement.

If you realised that circumstances change, you should never have been so irresponsible as to agree to such a lengthy loan period without a get out clause, you should swallow your own stupidity in my opinion and get on with it. Also, yes, you explained that you enquired with one company and that they wanted vaccination records and passport details I've used a number of companies and none of them have ever asked for vaccination records and only one has asked for passport details. I'm certainly not saying that you are lying but if it were me I'd have got on the phone to the other companies and arranged insurance with one of them or at the very least enquired about it. Interestingly, you are saying that you took a horse on loan that belonged to someone else, and rode it without any public liability insurance. Furthermore, what exactly would you have done if the horse had an accident which was down to you and needed surgery, essentially you would not have been able to pay for wrecking someone's horse. Personally I can see that both you and the owner have been hugely irresponsible, and yes I agree that its bad form that the owner is being awkward over this because if it was me and I found out a loaner had not insured my horse I'd have the bloody thing back in my care in a heart beat.
 
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Marydoll

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Having put my own horse on loan in the past AND having got a mare on loan at the mo: I'm seeing this both ways!

When you take a horse on loan you take it lock-stock-and-barrel basically and its up to the loaner to pay all the bills, vets and all, BUT in this instance the loaner has said she wants to discontinue the "loan". However there is no formal contract in place detailing the period of the loan.

Having had a situation where my horse was out on loan and the loaner wanted to cancel it after only five weeks, I am in some sympathy with the owner as she may well not be able to have the horse back at the moment, especially with winter coming on, HOWEVER, I don't really see why if loaner for her own good reasons (in this case, vet fees) for not continuing the loan and has told the owner so clearly, then the owner should/must take heed of that and if they can't have the horse back then arrange either another loan, OR if veterinary treatment/fees is likely to be an ongoing issue, arrange to have the horse PTS for humane reasons rather than sell the poor creature on and have it hauled around the markets until it ends up in a dog tin.

Sorry loaner, but before taking on any loan you SHOULD have made sure that you'd signed a proper loan agreement; plus the owner too should have ensured this happened. But alas no good shutting the stable door after horse has bolted.

Think it a good idea OP for you to talk to a solicitor. But ultimately the facts are (1) the horse isn't yours (so why should you have the expense of someone else's horse when you've already said you want to hand it back); and (2) having informed the owner that you wish to terminate the loan, they are continuing to ignore that and YOU are left with the bills.

Sounds like the owner is hoping you'll take the horse (plus bills) on permanently........... think that the passport issue to start with was a bit of a warning bell TBH.

You COULD be drastic and write a recorded delivery letter to the owner and say that as they're continuing to ignore your desire to hand the horse back - and YOU are having to pay out vets fees for it, that unless they get back to you with say 30 days that you will be arranging humane destruction of the animal and all vets fees to date will be accruable to them........

But anyway, see what your legal beagal says.
Erm, no you dont need to take it lock stock and barrell including vets bills. I have a horse on loan for a year and our agreement states i pay either the £150 excess if its an insurance job or up to £250 for any illness injury, any more, its the owner or insurance that pays. I also insisted they took out LOU as well in the event he was injured in the field or competing while with me.
i also have a clause in that if the horse becomes lame long term or has an ongoing injury or illness where he cant be ridden he goes back, i have a 4 week notice period to return to owner. We drew the contract up between us and it went back and forth 2-3 times before we came to our agreement, i wouldnt take anything without a robust loan agreement in place to protect everyone, including the horse.
 

Moomin1

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Op, apologies that I misread your bond with the horse, I'm also aware that you have paid vets fees, but obviously you don't want to. Yes, a loan is returnable but you agreed to a loan period of a year, I do get where the owner is coming from on this, you agree a 12 month loan, at the end of which you could return or renew, you did not put any get out clause to return the horse inbetween. In addition, you seem to be making out this is the owners fault, crystal balls are a wonderful thing but neither you nor the owner had foresight. Whilst this will ultimately be the owners problem, you took on responsibility for this horse for 12 months and now, because something has gone wrong you want to shirk that. A loan is for the period agreed unless a get out clause has been agreed. Interestingly if the horse was fine and healthy and the owner suddenly said she wanted it back (for whatever reason) I'm sure you would be the first to come on here moaning that she can't do that because you had a 12 month agreement.

If you realised that circumstances change, you should never have been so irresponsible as to agree to such a lengthy loan period without a get out clause, you should swallow your own stupidity in my opinion and get on with it. Also, yes, you explained that you enquired with one company and that they wanted vaccination records and passport details I've used a number of companies and none of them have ever asked for vaccination records and only one has asked for passport details. I'm certainly not saying that you are lying but if it were me I'd have got on the phone to the other companies and arranged insurance with one of them or at the very least enquired about it. Interestingly, you are saying that you took a horse on loan that belonged to someone else, and rode it without any public liability insurance. Furthermore, what exactly would you have done if the horse had an accident which was down to you and needed surgery, essentially you would not have been able to pay for wrecking someone's horse. Personally I can see that both you and the owner have been hugely irresponsible, and yes I agree that its bad form that the owner is being awkward over this because if it was me and I found out a loaner had not insured my horse I'd have the bloody thing back in my care in a heart beat.
See your point, but fact is, OP can't afford said issues. What would you suggest she do then?
 

Queenbee

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See your point, but fact is, OP can't afford said issues. What would you suggest she do then?
I'm not saying she should not send him back, I'm also not saying that the owner shouldn't take him back, I think my real point is that she has come on here moaning about the situation and the owner but that in my opinion she got herself into this mess, she should have got insurance (you certainly can do that without a passport), I'm normally very tolerant of loaner posts but this has really ticked me off because the horse is absolutely not to blame and ultimately whichever way it goes no one wants to deal with it or its problems, when ultimately both parties do and should have some sense of responsibility. Ultimately, she could rock up at the owners house tomorrow and drop the horse off and I doubt whether other than bad feeling and harsh words there would be any repercussions but I suppose I want her to stop banging on about what an irresponsible person the owner is and how it's her responsibility, because in my eyes the same can be said for the loaner. We all say that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but willful ignorance (ie taking on a horse you can't afford if something goes wrong and not insuring it) is something that doesn't enamour me to someone.

Op, take the horse back tomorrow, you clearly don't want it or to have to deal with or pay for its problems, personally, you shouldn't have got it on trial in the first place, as I said, this horse could have gone for 12 months completely healthy being ridden uninsured by you, hence why you should never have had it.
 

siennamum

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I am amazed people think the OP should keep a horse which it now transpires has long term potentially career ending illness. Can't be ridden, needs mega steroids and so close monitoring. What a bunch of weirdoes, would you expect her to keep a loan horse if it needed retiring?
OP you are a very patient person I'd have been pulling my hair out with some of these responses.
 

Sussexbythesea

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I am amazed people think the OP should keep a horse which it now transpires has long term potentially career ending illness. Can't be ridden, needs mega steroids and so close monitoring. What a bunch of weirdoes, would you expect her to keep a loan horse if it needed retiring?
OP you are a very patient person I'd have been pulling my hair out with some of these responses.
Agree with this surely the main reason for loaning a horse rather than buying one is to avoid the ultimate responsibility buying entails. Likewise if you don't want a horse coming back you sell it not loan it.
 

Skipadeedooda

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This is what owners risk when loaning a horse that it can be returned at anytime. Ultimately the responsibility lies with the owner. They were irresponsible for not insuring the horse initially, I have a horse on loan as well as my own and the owner has it insured and I only have to pay excess if and when required. I think the OP is perfectly within there rights to return the horse with 30days notice as the owner hasn't fulfilled there obligation to ensure an agreed contract is in place, provided OP with required docs to insure horse/transfer insurance (obviously owner didn't have it insured) and haven't handed over passport so vaccs can be kept updated. This smacks of irresponsible owner and even if horse was fighting fit, I'd still be inclined to return horse as this would be ringing alarm bells which OP is doing. I wouldn't think there is any legal issue here, owner doesn't have a leg to stand on. I would proceed with notice of return and solicitors letter. Good Luck xx
 

fattylumpkin

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I wouldn't wish this kind of financial heartbreak or stress on anyone. I'm hoping Moomin1 is right and a letter will do the trick.

Mores to the point, the owner should have informed OP about her own situation right from the very start and OP would've been much better able to make decisions regarding the horse, insurance and her own financial situation should something go wrong. It's a big shock to find out that a horse has been effectively dumped on you and abandoned after its vets bills have eaten your grocery food for the month. If the owner had been frank from the beginning, OP would never have gotten into this mess.
 

JillA

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I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? How would you put the horse first if you couldn't afford the vet bills? PTS? Suck it up and do the best for the horse? Or try and get a charity to deal with the problem? Just asking.
 

cptrayes

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I wonder how all the perfect people with 20/20 hindsight telling the OP what a stupid and uncaring person she is manage to survive their boring relentlessly perfect lives.

Give the OP a break, she knows what she got wrong and wanting advice on how to return the horse is not it.

Though asking for it on here may turn out to be something she also regrets in hindsight, given some of your responses!
 

cptrayes

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I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? .


No, it doesn't. She would have bought a horse if she wanted that responsibility. She loaned it.

Your questions are irrelevant to the issue, which is how to reasonably return a loan horse to the owner who does have the responsibility for the answer to those questions
 

JillA

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It isn't irrelevant because at the end of the day, the only one who really matters is the horse - an animal who has health problems and who has no say in who provides the relief or treatment. Owners/loaners can argue all they like, but so long as they are thinking of themselves the horse falls through the gap.
 

jokadoka

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I wonder how all the perfect people with 20/20 hindsight telling the OP what a stupid and uncaring person she is manage to survive their boring relentlessly perfect lives.

Give the OP a break, she knows what she got wrong and wanting advice on how to return the horse is not it.

Though asking for it on here may turn out to be something she also regrets in hindsight, given some of your responses!
^^^^^^

This!!! Totally!!
 

cptrayes

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It isn't irrelevant because at the end of the day, the only one who really matters is the horse - an animal who has health problems and who has no say in who provides the relief or treatment. Owners/loaners can argue all they like, but so long as they are thinking of themselves the horse falls through the gap.
She posted asking for advice how to return the horse, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and resolves her responsibility for the horse.

Your questions are purely for your own interest, and spectacularly irrelevant, since if she had owned the horse it would be insured.

I totally and utterly disagree with you that the only one that matters here is the horse. Her problems could swiftly be resolved with a bullet. People's problems cannot.

And as for the horse falling through a gap, can you not see that the original post is all about how this kind and caring loaner can ensure that no gap arrives?
 
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MiniMilton

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I'd call £400 in two weeks for a condition which is not yet resolved and may flare again a walking vet bill myself.

I am amazed at the level of hostility you and some other posters are showing to someone whose only crime is to want to return a horse to its owner with reasonable notice.
This

The OP had the horse treated and now wants to terminate the loan. The owner refused to give passport or to draw up a contract. I don't see how the OP is at fault.

If the only thing holding you to the horse is a loose discussion on FB, then surely the messages requesting passport or stating a contract is to be drawn up also hold some weight?

The owner is chancing their arm and being very irresponsible.
 

DragonSlayer

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Poor horse, maybe the best thing is PTS if the owner can't afford him back, she's certainly not going to pay for expensive vet's fees needed if she can't afford basic livery!

At risk of being called evil, maybe this is the convo OP should be having if horse is always going to have health issues.....or would owner prefer him untreated and in pain in a field....?
 

AshTay

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The owner of a horse has the responsibilty to be able to provide a home and care for any horse that they own. In my opinion, no one should put a horse out on loan if they're not prepared to take it back at relatively short notice. If they can't afford it or don't have time then they should sell.
A loan is exactly that - a loan. They can end suddenly (or with agreed notice period) for any number of reasons even if they seem ideal and perfect in the first place.
What if things were different and the OP turned out to be neglecting the horse or mistreating it? Would the owner take it back then or have they pretty much wiped their hands of the horse now??

I have every sympathy for the OP who has done all she financially can for the horse and is now trying to do the one thing that differentiates a loan from a purchase and give the horse back.

I don't have any useful practical advice but I hope that this situation can be resolved and the horse finds a new home where it continues to receive the care that it needs.
 
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