Pammy Hutton vs The Dressage Hub (Facebook)

Miss_Millie said:
I think the crux of it is that as a group admined by British riders, they were more than happy to criticise abusive international riders as if abusive practices were exclusive to anywhere outside of the UK, but did a 180 when the CDJ video came out.

I generally find toxic positivity quite sickening - it is a way to gaslight empathetic and aware people into believing that their concerns are 'negative'; that they are a bad thing. It's ironic because ultimately having a zero tolerance policy towards abuse would lead to a new generation of riders who put the horse first, and maybe then there would be a way forward for horse sports, although they would look very different (happy and healthy athletes having their needs met). They're shooting themselves in the foot with this 'positivity' campaign.
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The trouble with Pammy is that she is a poacher turned game keeper.It does not suit her.On top of which her daughter has been very ill,which I think has affected her more than she would like to admit.
 
eahotson said:
The trouble with Pammy is that she is a poacher turned game keeper.It does not suit her.On top of which her daughter has been very ill,which I think has affected her more than she would like to admit.
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How so poacher turned gamekeeper? I don’t know too much about her apart from what my friends have said. I’ve considered having schoolmaster lessons at Talland and not got round to it.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I think/hope that the biggest catalyst for change will be the recording equipment every person has on them at all times - their phone. Maybe with enough videos surfacing of abuse from pro riders, the wider equestrian community will finally have to admit that we've failed horses miserably, from top to bottom. I think that the horse world may be on the precipice of colossal change for the better, and the pushback from those who care about riding above all comes from the fear of their house of cards finally collapsing.
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Before mobile phoned with cameras and the Internet, if you complained you were told that it did not happen or you misunderstood .Bit harder now it is all on camera and the cameras are getting better and better.
 
Ceifer said:
How so poacher turned gamekeeper? I don’t know too much about her apart from what my friends have said. I’ve considered having schoolmaster lessons at Talland and not got round to it.
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She and her mother are heavily involved in the competition world.Her mother has now died but obviously was a big influence in Pamnys life.On top of which Talland is a top training yard .If competitive dressage goes down the pan what happens to Talland.
 
eahotson said:
The trouble with Pammy is that she is a poacher turned game keeper.It does not suit her.On top of which her daughter has been very ill,which I think has affected her more than she would like to admit.
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Someone should have pulled PH aside years ago to point out you never mix personal and professional on social media imho. I find that rather murky whether you're a FBHS or an equine vet. I know Talland's a family business, but some of the things that are posted under the Talland page would probably be best kept for the personal.

Caveat - never been there, worked with and know people who have trained there with mixed reviews.
 
teapot said:
Someone should have pulled PH aside years ago to point out you never mix personal and professional on social media imho. I find that rather murky whether you're a FBHS or an equine vet. I know Talland's a family business, but some of the things that are posted under the Talland page would probably be best kept for the personal.

Caveat - never been there, worked with and know people who have trained there with mixed reviews.
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I think some people who are genuine friends have tried to point a few of these things out.
 
eahotson said:
She and her mother are heavily involved in the competition world.Her mother has now died but obviously was a big influence in Pamnys life.On top of which Talland is a top training yard .If competitive dressage goes down the pan what happens to Talland.
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Ah ok I understand now. Yeah that’s true.
Where I’m conflicted is there is a huge lack of decent riding schools available now and Talland does provide that for children.
 
I can’t comment on what’s cracking off online at the moment, I don’t have social media and while I’ve tried to have a nose it won’t let me read anything without signing in.

But I have spent time at Talland, both the old yard when Molly Sivewright was alive and where it is now. I never had a session with Pammy or Brian but I went for a week each summer for a good number of years, booked onto two/three schoolmaster lessons a day for an intensive course. I never found the instructors overly friendly but for the length of the sessions they were attentive and focussed on me, which is what I was paying for. And the senior instructors I had were familiar faces every time so staff retention must have been ok, back then at least. I spent a lot of time watching whoever was teaching in my down time, this was encouraged and nothing appeared to be behind closed doors. As far as my experience of Talland goes, I got a lot out of going there.
 
I trained at Talland, with Col and Mrs Sivewright, Adam Kemp etc Al. I was there for a year - did an initial 3 month AI course, then stayed on to do my BHSII. I had daily lessons, taught clients every week, was 100% involved in the yard, and lived on site.
I cannot think of any single incident then that would raise me raise my eyebrows now.
Time passes, things change, and tbf, I haven't been to "new" Talland, since they moved.

I was marginally terrified of Pammy as she certainly always spoke her mind 🤣 but she always seemed fair and underneath the front, she was kind hearted.

I'm guessing that in any stressful situation, if someone has enough stress thrown at them, they will eventually give it back.

The DH woman seems unhinged. She reminds me of Katie Hopkins in many ways. Starts off sounding vaguely sensible/relatable on an issue then just goes waaay beyond.
 
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Re people saying 'Everyone's got a phone, that's bound to change things' - with so-called trail hunting it hasn't, despite the most appalling things coming out
Despite plenty of evidence that too often what is being hunted is very much not a trail, it's been largely business as usual for the hunts.

People think they are in the right and the detractors don't know what they're talking about or 'we've always done it this way' or it's 'tradition'

I suspect the same kind of mindset exists in (some) competitive riders
 
cauda equina said:
Re people saying 'Everyone's got a phone, that's bound to change things' - with so-called trail hunting it hasn't, despite the most appalling things coming out
Despite plenty of evidence that too often what is being hunted is very much not a trail, it's been largely business as usual for the hunts.

People think they are in the right and the detractors don't know what they're talking about or 'we've always done it this way' or it's 'tradition'

I suspect the same kind of mindset exists in (some) competitive riders
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That's a good point, although I think hunting is finally on the brink of being banned. The reasons for which won't be exclusively down to recorded footage, but I'm sure it will put more weight behind the justification to completely ban trail hunting - there must be 100s of videos over the years of various hunts illegally hunting fox, trespassing, behaving antisocially etc. The prevalence of these videos coming out every year will have changed or reinforced public opinion .

The change needs to happen from within if horse sports are to survive, but as you say, many people are holding onto antiquated ideas and values to the detriment of horse welfare and social licence to operate.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I think the crux of it is that as a group admined by British riders, they were more than happy to criticise abusive international riders as if abusive practices were exclusive to anywhere outside of the UK, but did a 180 when the CDJ video came out.

I generally find toxic positivity quite sickening - it is a way to gaslight empathetic and aware people into believing that their concerns are 'negative'; that they are a bad thing. It's ironic because ultimately having a zero tolerance policy towards abuse would lead to a new generation of riders who put the horse first, and maybe then there would be a way forward for horse sports, although they would look very different (happy and healthy athletes having their needs met). They're shooting themselves in the foot with this 'positivity' campaign.
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Totally agree with this, and your previous post. Equestrians It's Time To Act was specifically set up to call out abuse and act on it. When abuse hits the mainstream of course some people go too far with vitriol, and of course some people use abuses to further a more extremist agenda, but that has always been the way. All they needed to do was delete abusive messages, block posters who were personally attacking mods or others, and ignore the calls for total bans on horses sport/ownership etc. That is nowhere near gaining any traction. It's not a credible possibility (though may become more so by the indifference and inaction of people exactly like this!)

The recent revelations could be seen as a fantastic opportunity for them, if they really wanted some cut through and a large groundswell of popular opinion, forcing positive change. The new focus on 'positivity' makes me wonder what on earth the page is for now. They might as well be called Equestrians - Its Time to Make Ourselves Feel Good with a Self Congratulatory Page That Definitely Doesn't Actually Want Action.....
 
I spend too much time on the internet and really didn't see much of what they were claiming on that group anyway, re abusive messages/personal attacks, most of really has just been robust and good discussion. They really have made it look like it got too close to home we can't deal with this anymore which was poor and disappointing.

It's gone from FEI it's time to act to we just want to talk amongst ourselves with people that agree with us and there's nothing bad happening round here.

I did comment re. the 'we need to leave it to the proper authorities' which was around the blue tongue discussion/FEI 'talking' to riders and nothing more, that's been an issue for more than a decade so. .. .
 
Ambers Echo said:
Totally agree with this, and your previous post. Equestrians It's Time To Act was specifically set up to call out abuse and act on it. When abuse hits the mainstream of course some people go too far with vitriol, and of course some people use abuses to further a more extremist agenda, but that has always been the way. All they needed to do was delete abusive messages, block posters who were personally attacking mods or others, and ignore the calls for total bans on horses sport/ownership etc. That is nowhere near gaining any traction. It's not a credible possibility (though may become more so by the indifference and inaction of people exactly like this!)

The recent revelations could be seen as a fantastic opportunity for them, if they really wanted some cut through and a large groundswell of popular opinion, forcing positive change. The new focus on 'positivity' makes me wonder what on earth the page is for now. They might as well be called Equestrians - Its Time to Make Ourselves Feel Good with a Self Congratulatory Page That Definitely Doesn't Actually Want Action.....
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I couldn't agree more. In my head the page is called 'Equestrians It's Time to Act Like Abuse Isn't Happening In Horse Sports'.

I'm glad that the page is private now, as the posts kept coming up on my feed despite not being a member, and I was becoming increasingly annoyed by the admin's head-in-the-sand attitude.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Totally agree with this, and your previous post. Equestrians It's Time To Act was specifically set up to call out abuse and act on it. When abuse hits the mainstream of course some people go too far with vitriol, and of course some people use abuses to further a more extremist agenda, but that has always been the way. All they needed to do was delete abusive messages, block posters who were personally attacking mods or others, and ignore the calls for total bans on horses sport/ownership etc. That is nowhere near gaining any traction. It's not a credible possibility (though may become more so by the indifference and inaction of people exactly like this!)

The recent revelations could be seen as a fantastic opportunity for them, if they really wanted some cut through and a large groundswell of popular opinion, forcing positive change. The new focus on 'positivity' makes me wonder what on earth the page is for now. They might as well be called Equestrians - Its Time to Make Ourselves Feel Good with a Self Congratulatory Page That Definitely Doesn't Actually Want Action.....
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👏👏👏
 
onemoretime said:
I believe she is Canadian and lives in USA but dont take that as gospel. It appears that she doesn't have much in the way of horse/competition experience but is just a huge vile mouth piece.
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Susan Wachowich, I believe from Alberta. Used to ride dressage, has a hate for multiple Canadian dressage riders. Known for stealing videos and putting her watermark on them and posting them to her YouTube channel for income purposes, I will not watch anything shared that is attached to her channel for that reason alone. Has the honour of being banned from WEF for her charming behaviour. Search her name on COTH for more information. ;)
 
Tiddlypom said:
Just an observation that the ‘Equestrians, it’s time to act’ FB group has now become a private group that you have to be a member of to view. As a non member I was able to view all the posts yesterday.
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An update - my request to join the FB group has now been accepted after I answered a few standard simple question re expected code of conduct on the group. I first tried to join a few days ago, but heard nothing back and thought they didn’t want me 😳🤣. But apparently it was just that they’d lost their list of questions.

ETA Seems like there are a number of new moderators on the group now.
 
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nikkimariet said:
Dressage Hub is unhinged.
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Agree with this, some of her comments make me cringe. Pammy does seem to like the public eye, her posts are always asking for debate.

Not related to the Pammy vs Dressage Hub.. but thinking of Talland. I had a lesson at Talland a couple of years ago, was so excited! Booked for a medium school master session but you have to have a assessment before which is totally understandable.. The horse they put me on for the assessment was extremely backwards and clearly unhappy to go forward at all. I was told its all my fault and shouted at (at one point shouted at for being unable to hear with 3 lessons going on at once) I am not 'soft' and love a instructor who is firm, but this was different. I came out the session and sat in the car, had a tear.

It wasn't cheap I emailed them after and was given a voucher for another session with a different instructor and horse (they claimed the horse I was on was tired) but I never used it.

I'm not a beginner or professional by any means, been riding and owned my own since a teenager which is almost 20 years ago. I did some low level eventing and some dressage on my last horse I backed myself, but never had a instructor give such personal aggressive comments. I came away feeling so down and never wanting to get on a horse again. Maybe my experience was a one off.
 
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