Pandering to overweight riders

[palo1]

Agency is the key word there @Gloi - sad isn't it

I don't want to hijack this thread but I also volunteered for the RDA for years and it made me very sad; no agency for many of the horses or MOST of the riders. Some enjoyed what they were offered but were not given a choice in so many ways. I found it, at times, rather degrading and having made my career in the area of disability I chose to walk away when any questions I raised were simply ignored.

 

[Gloi]

Agency is the key word there @Gloi - sad isn't it

It is. It always seemed wrong that the people who could talk could say no to anything and that was that, but the ones who couldn't had no choice. It made me very disillusioned. As always it was money that did the talking.

 

[Ceifer]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I also volunteered for the RDA for years and it made me very sad; no agency for many of the horses or MOST of the riders. Some enjoyed what they were offered but were not given a choice in so many ways. I found it, at times, rather degrading and having made my career in the area of disability I chose to walk away when any questions I raised were simply ignored.

I taught a local RDA group. Their old instructor retired and I took over and was horrified if I’m honest. There was a rider who was very overweight on a TBx that looked lame when the rider was onboard. When I queried I was told this was the only horse they would ride as it pained them to ride anything wider. The riding school had no alternative horses so I raised with RDA HQ. They sent one of their chief instructors out who backed me up when I had to tell the riders parents we could not accommodate their child. One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do.

The same establishment had another rider who was non-verbal but used to wail the whole time. Again I queried whether that rider was enjoying the activity, but was told by the charity that brought them that if that rider didn’t come they couldn’t justify only bringing the other 2 riders who were fine so I ended up keeping my mouth shut.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I don't understand why RDAs can't offer driving experiences to people who are too heavy and/or unbalanced to ride?

Because all groups don't have suitable ponies, or vehicles or a volunteer who drives.

 

[rabatsa]

I don't understand why RDAs can't offer driving experiences to people who are too heavy and/or unbalanced to ride?

25 years ago there were over 100 RDA groups which offered carriage driving, now there are less than 25. Another one bites the dust when the group I am involved with stops later this year.

It's not just about offering an experience but the benefits of riding and improvements to coordination and fitness so driving wouldn't be a substitute.

However that does have to be balanced against horse welfare.

It is surprising how carriage driving can help with balance and co ordination, I agree it does not do much for fitness, then again the amount of riding most RDA riders do isnt really very good on the fitness front.

To run an RDA carriage driving group takes a lot more knowledge than the average riding group possesses, as each turnout needs a fully trained person who is assessed as capable of being able to be in control of the turnout. Unlike with a riding group who can run several ponies under one instructor. The people on the ground also need more capability than most of those on the ground in a riding situation.

There are also weight limits on carriage drivers as the average pony is limited to its own weight behind it, pony age/fitness/terrain and ground surface all play a part in determining the weight here. There is also the consideration with wheelchair drivers for the weight to be manhandled up the carriage ramp, at least three people needed for this task, as well as the person head holding the pony and the driving coach on the carriage. Many carriage ramps are steeper than what health and safety would ideally like.

Over the years we have had to tell people that the riders/drivers were unsuitable for RDA.

One person we felt did not enjoy his riding as he told us it hurt, when we told the carers that he would be better doing another activity they told us that since he had started riding he had also been able to start to weight bear and transfer from his wheelchair. He carried on for another couple of months and then got himself a part time job as a cashier at a local supermarket.

One day centre would send a very disruptive lady every week. She did not like coming and although non verbal it was obvious to everyone. She regularly spat at the carers who brought her. When told we would not accept her on the premises the day centre refused to allow the other carriage drivers to attend. This was got round by their families/carers getting a minibus and coming at the weekend. It seems that the families would not pay for other outings on the RDA day and after less than a month they returned minus the disruptive lady. This only happened due to pester power from relatives of the day centre customers.

These are two that have stood out over the years but many have been told not to come since I started over 30 years ago.

I have been lucky to work with a very good Group Organiser and we have always put pony welfare first.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We are a very small RDA group and have sadly not been able to offer riding to a man in his 50s whom we have known since childhood. He was our best rider for several years but now has dementia and is deteriorating mentally and physically. Unfortunately we cannot find a horse that can carry him despite looking for a suitable horse for months. We lost a couple of bigger horses pre Covid.

 

[Rowreach]

Again, slightly off topic but it's not just the physical welfare of RAD/therapy horses at stake, it's also their mental welfare which is often neglected. Which is why I've always politely refused when asked to volunteer, and have refused to take along my horse, who would probably be perfect.

 

[Ceifer]

Again, slightly off topic but it's not just the physical welfare of RAD/therapy horses at stake, it's also their mental welfare which is often neglected. Which is why I've always politely refused when asked to volunteer, and have refused to take along my horse, who would probably be perfect.

Yep. I agree here.

We used to run an after school group for younger riders which was much easier. The riding school was better equipped with ponies and the riders were happier with doing activities that didn’t really cause the ponies much bother. Being near the ponies seemed to provide as much pleasure as riding them.

 

[tristar]

wonder what the weight ratio of CH and fame is he looks big enough on that horse, who, i might say, looks relatively normal compared to some horses competing [ to me]

 

[palo1]

wonder what the weight ratio of CH and fame is he looks big enough on that horse, who, i might say, looks relatively normal compared to some horses competing [ to me]

Team GB stats suggest that Carl H @ 6ft weighs 86kg.

 

[Surbie]

I know that weigh tapes are often a bit inaccurate, but they are better than a guess, educated or otherwise.

I have been through 3 so far and now no longer use them as an indicator of weight, just whether the horse has lost or gained. I have my horse weighed on a weighbridge twice a year and the 3 tapes were 15-20% under. The 20% under meant a difference of 120kg, which has implications for travelling him, worming etc.

 

[Surbie]

I don't understand why RDAs can't offer driving experiences to people who are too heavy and/or unbalanced to ride?

Ours has started to offer pony care sessions - grooming, learning body parts, limited in-hand work, helping mix feeds and doling them out at lunchtime. It's very popular.

My group has strict weight limits per horse, with an absolute max of 12stone. Depending on the rider assessment, the rider's weight is increased to take account of lack of balance/wonkiness. One issue we have found is that our weight carriers tend to have short backs. So in theory they might take more weight, but the heavier bottom often won't fit in a 16"/16.5" saddle.

We looked at driving for our group, but it needs equipment (we've been broken into a few times) which costs (we have not much ££), ideally horses that are ride&drive (ours aren't) and needs instructors and volunteers with proper experience. Also space! It got filed under 'too difficult'.

A Racewood simulator is something we are looking into though.

 

[Kaylum]

The simulator at our rda carries up to 16 stone and can be booked by anyone. I think this is amazing as it's so useful for getting fitness back whilst not having to worry about the horse.

 

[HollyWoozle]

This thread has made me feel a bit large I’m 5 foot 7 , dress size 12 but weigh 11 stone 8, thankfully I have a 580kg cob and ride in a TCS but I’m looking at all these weights thinking shit I’m fat. I found up to aged 28 I was naturally very slim, now I eat less and exersise more but am 2 stone heavier….. I do have an average under active thyroid and am on sertraline which seems to add the weight. Now I’m overthinking maybe I’m too big …

I'm 5'8", currently around 11st 11lbs, and I've ridden almost 150 different horses around the world and they weren't all 580kg cobs (but I'd love to have a glorious cob who could carry me and a picnic ). I like to think I didn't hurt any of them but as we see from the thread, it's somewhat of a 'how long is a piece of string' sort of question.

 

[Orangehorse]

Reasonable limit for what ?

For riding a horse. A rider of that weight would be given the weight carrier in the riding school.

 

[Orangehorse]

Well, saw something interesting yesterday. A model of a WWI troop horse, tacked up to include saddle, weapons, spare horseshoes, ammunition, feed for horse and rider.

Total weight carried estimated to be 20 stone.

 

[SEL]

Looking for something else and found this. References the US calvary coming up with the 20% target.

Limit the Load: how much can horses carry? — Jec Ballou Equine Fitness & Performance

What does it mean that your horse can carry a maximum of 20 percent of his bodyweight?

www.jecballou.com

I think there are plenty of examples of horses through history carrying more than ideal weight - but that doesn't mean its OK.

These days horses are a luxury not a requirement for transport, farming, war machines etc. We also know more so we should use that knowledge to do better by them.

 

[TPO]

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

There's a difference between animals being utilised for war and people expecting their horse to carry >18st while they get their jollies. Neither are right (morally/ethically nor physically) IMO

 

[Birker2020]

I really dislike the title if this thread. Pandering seems such a patronising word and very unkind way of looking at the bigger picture. Being overweight is as much a diability to the sufferer as suffering a MH issue, or a health disability like diabetes, asthma, etc. But it comes with a feeling if great shame due in part to other peoples attitudes and using negative words like 'pandering'.

Can you imagine if the title were changed to 'pandering to depressed riders' or 'pandering to diabetics'?

I agree if you are overweight perhaps you shouldn't do more than a half hour hack down the lane once in a while, but as others have said, common sense needs to be applied abd it depends on the size and weight carrying capacity of the horse. A lot of tall riders probably do look out of place on a 15hh but it doesn't mean to say their weight is an issue.

The only reason I'm working my butt off with my eating and gym trips is mainly because of peoples attitudes.

I know I certainly wasn't over the weight ratio with my horse, in fact I was a lot less even after I stopped competing.

The only reason I'm working my butt off at the gym and changing my eating habits is because I've been made to feel ashamed of my size, not because I am too overweight for a 17.1hh middleweight WB or ISH weighing in at around 720kg.

 

[Birker2020]

The simulator at our rda carries up to 16 stone and can be booked by anyone. I think this is amazing as it's so useful for getting fitness back whilst not having to worry about the horse.

At my local RDA my friend was a lot heavier and they said it was fine.

 

[ycbm]

I really dislike the title if this thread. Pandering seems such a patronising word and very unkind way of looking at the bigger picture. Being overweight is as much a diability to the sufferer as suffering a MH issue, or a health disability like diabetes, asthma, etc. But it comes with a feeling if great shame due in part to other peoples attitudes and using negative words like 'pandering'.

Can you imagine if the title were changed to 'pandering to depressed riders' or 'pandering to diabetics'?

The option is always there not to open a thread with a title that suggests the content will upset you.

The title was in direct reference to "you're fine luv" social media posts reassuring riders who are so heavy that there are serious welfare implications for the horse.

Being depressed or diabetic has no welfare implications for the horse.

Being overweight has none either, unless you are too heavy for the horse you're on.

The thread title has no relevance to any situation you were in yourself.

IMO, welfare of the horse should always win.
.

 

[Birker2020]

The option is always there not to open a thread with a title that suggests the content will upset you.

The title was in direct reference to "you're fine luv" social media posts reassuring riders who are so heavy that there are serious welfare implications for the horse.

Being depressed or diabetic has no welfare implications for the horse.

Being overweight has none either, unless you are too heavy for the horse you're on.

The thread title has no relevance to any situation you were in yourself.

IMO, welfare of the horse should always win.
.

I wasn't suggesting it had any relevance to any situation I was in myself, that's twice tonight you've misunderstood my comments. It may be me not being clear enough, as I keep saying I find it hard to articulate myself sometimes and I'm very tired having worked myself ill tonight at the gym (low blood sugar) just to try and fit into the 'norm' and stop those shallow people looking down on me, because that's what people do.

I stand by what I said, I still find the title patronising, I still would if I were a swelvte size 10, 12 or 14.

 

[Lexi 123]

Being overweight is as much a diability to the sufferer as suffering a MH issue, or a health disability like diabetes, asthma, etc. But it comes with a feeling if great shame due in part to other peoples attitudes and using negative words like 'pandering'.

Can you imagine if the title were changed to 'pandering to depressed riders' or 'pandering to diabetics'?

Sorry but that awful to compare being overweight to someone with a disability and health problems they can’t control as someone who is type 1 diabetes which insulin deficiency as our body doesn’t create insulin a pancreas has died. I just going to be blunt being overweight is consuming to much calories and not burning enough calories. It can easily be cured but someone with a heath problem can’t .

 

[Tiddlypom]

At my local RDA my friend was a lot heavier and they said it was fine.

Racewood Simulators, who have pretty well cornered the market in riding simulators including manufacturing an RDA version, have a weight limit of 16 stone.

Riding for the Disabled; therapeutic equestrian simulator

The Racewood RDA Simulator is a fully interactive equestrian simulator that will allow riders to practise basic ground work in a safe and controlled environment. The simulator also allows riders to practise the Countryside Challenge.

www.racewood.com

 

[Mrs B]

There’s a culture of whatever you want is your truth and everyone better believe it and yes pander to it or else
It’s getting more and more prevalent.
You see it in its extreme in the knots public bodies are turning themselves in over trans rights

Thinking there are only two sexes is not the same as being hateful to trans people

This exactly the same thing you get with some extremely fat people where horses aside, you are supposed to believe that it’s perfectly healthy to be obese .
It’s not .
I also object to the use of the term phobic in these contexts it’s poor use of language.

Agreed.

It seems that people use words like 'phobic' or 'hater' or the phrase 'you need to educate yourself' simply to try to shut down another person whose opinion differs from their own, because they have never formed the ability to put forward a cogent argument for their point of view.

The child's view of things being black or white, right or wrong never evolves to recognise all the nuances in between and is, therefore, carried forward into adulthood.

That's the trouble with living in the echo chamber that is social media - rational, thoughtful debate (the very foundation that an enlightened, civilised society is based upon) becomes disabled, and then rejected out of hand as being too tricky to navigate.

 

[Birker2020]

Racewood Simulators, who have pretty well cornered the market in riding simulators including manufacturing an RDA version, have a weight limit of 16 stone.

Riding for the Disabled; therapeutic equestrian simulator

The Racewood RDA Simulator is a fully interactive equestrian simulator that will allow riders to practise basic ground work in a safe and controlled environment. The simulator also allows riders to practise the Countryside Challenge.

www.racewood.com

Whatever. I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm just telling you that this is what my friend was told by the RDA where he went and he has had another follow up session. I have no reason to lie.

 

[teapot]

Whatever. I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm just telling you that this is what my friend was told by the RDA where he went and he has had another follow up session. I have no reason to lie.

The RDA group may well be unaware of the weight limit imposed by Racewood or not care, but simulators don't do well long term if used with too much weight.

 

[Upthecreek]

I really dislike the title if this thread. Pandering seems such a patronising word and very unkind way of looking at the bigger picture. Being overweight is as much a diability to the sufferer as suffering a MH issue, or a health disability like diabetes, asthma, etc. But it comes with a feeling if great shame due in part to other peoples attitudes and using negative words like 'pandering'.

Can you imagine if the title were changed to 'pandering to depressed riders' or 'pandering to diabetics'?

I agree if you are overweight perhaps you shouldn't do more than a half hour hack down the lane once in a while, but as others have said, common sense needs to be applied abd it depends on the size and weight carrying capacity of the horse. A lot of tall riders probably do look out of place on a 15hh but it doesn't mean to say their weight is an issue.

The only reason I'm working my butt off with my eating and gym trips is mainly because of peoples attitudes.

I know I certainly wasn't over the weight ratio with my horse, in fact I was a lot less even after I stopped competing.

The only reason I'm working my butt off at the gym and changing my eating habits is because I've been made to feel ashamed of my size, not because I am too overweight for a 17.1hh middleweight WB or ISH weighing in at around 720kg.

I really don’t understand why the title of the thread offends you when it is exactly what the OP was describing - people commenting on Facebook that a 19 stone rider is fine on a 15hh TB are indeed pandering (in fact worse than that, they are downright lying) and trying to make something sound acceptable when it should absolutely not be acceptable to anyone.

I was recently kicked off a Facebook group for telling a rider she is too big to ride any horse, let alone the 15hh TB she was sitting on. This person is 125 kilos (19 stone) however, out of the 100 or so comments, I was the only person to comment negatively, everyone else was saying ''oh you look fine'' and ''as long as you are a balanced rider your size doesn't matter''.

 

[Peglo]

I'm very tired having worked myself ill tonight at the gym (low blood sugar) just to try and fit into the 'norm' and stop those shallow people looking down on me, because that's what people do.

I stand by what I said, I still find the title patronising, I still would if I were a swelvte size 10, 12 or 14.

You’re very unlikely to lose weight if you’re only doing it to please other people. It’s something you need to want to do for yourself.

I enjoy exercise but on days I can’t be bothered to I do it for my little horse because I love her and I know being my lightest will only benefit her. (And its good for my health too but she’s a bigger motivation than me)

 

[I'm Dun]

I really dislike the title if this thread. Pandering seems such a patronising word and very unkind way of looking at the bigger picture. Being overweight is as much a diability to the sufferer as suffering a MH issue, or a health disability like diabetes, asthma, etc. But it comes with a feeling if great shame due in part to other peoples attitudes and using negative words like 'pandering'.

Can you imagine if the title were changed to 'pandering to depressed riders' or 'pandering to diabetics'?

I agree if you are overweight perhaps you shouldn't do more than a half hour hack down the lane once in a while, but as others have said, common sense needs to be applied abd it depends on the size and weight carrying capacity of the horse. A lot of tall riders probably do look out of place on a 15hh but it doesn't mean to say their weight is an issue.

The only reason I'm working my butt off with my eating and gym trips is mainly because of peoples attitudes.

I know I certainly wasn't over the weight ratio with my horse, in fact I was a lot less even after I stopped competing.

The only reason I'm working my butt off at the gym and changing my eating habits is because I've been made to feel ashamed of my size, not because I am too overweight for a 17.1hh middleweight WB or ISH weighing in at around 720kg.

If you are 18stone as you've said, then 20stone inc tack is a conservative estimate. To meet the 15% rule you'd need a horse of 850kgs. 20 stone is too much weight for any horse to be asked to carry in most peoples opinions. The amount of force through small saddle panels is extreme and that is magnified in the legs.

The fact you are only losing weight to appease other people indicates that you think your weight is ok to put on a horses back. As do a small minority of people, who are told in an echo chamber of social media, that this is fine. Which is exactly what this post was all about. And as this post has been an echo chamber of people saying its wrong and needs addressing, its interesting to hear from the other side who think its fine.