Pandering to overweight riders

[Melody Grey]

I have dismissed horses for sale that I would otherwise have been interested in if I can see in the photos that the rider is too heavy, particularly where they’re marketed as jumpers/ low level event types.

 

[Birker2020]

I live in Australia and am curious to see what the general consensus is in other countries regarding overweight riders?

I was recently kicked off a Facebook group for telling a rider she is too big to ride any horse, let alone the 15hh TB she was sitting on. This person is 125 kilos (19 stone) however, out of the 100 or so comments, I was the only person to comment negatively, everyone else was saying ''oh you look fine'' and ''as long as you are a balanced rider your size doesn't matter''.

I felt like I was in some parallel universe! It's so crazy to me that so many people thought this was OK, is it this widely accepted everywhere else or is it only here?

I'd definitely say too heavy, I am not that heavy and felt heavy on my 17.1hh middle weight WB. For hacking it was fine but for schooling it would have been a no. I am tall and due to lack of riding and stress I have put on weight which i am trying to lose before buying the next horse.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A load is always easier to carry if it is well placed, no, it's not about riding lighter, it's about saddle fitting and the influence on way of going. Horses are harmed by light riders if they're allowed to move in compromised patterns, and yes a heavy rider will compound that, but a well loaded heavier rider may actually do less damage, if they ride the horse to move correctly, than the lighter rider.

I agree that there are clear cases of overweight riders, but the language we use, and our lack of understanding of the horse-saddle-rider interaction, isn't helpful to understanding the nuance here.

Well, yes, but what happens is that riders who are too heavy for their horses jump on posts like these, and because they reckon they are balanced and sympathetic riders, think it ok to ride at too heavy a weight.

It is never ok to ride if you are too heavy for your horse. If a rider is wobbly or inexperienced, then the weight limits should be stricter, rather than being more lax for a balanced educated rider.

This is not fat shaming, this is basic horse welfare. There are other ways of enjoying your horses if you are currently too heavy to ride one or any of them.

ETA Going back to the 19 stone rider on a 15hh tb in the OP. Estimated horse weight 450kg (could well be a little less). Rider 19 stones plus 2.5 stone clothing, equipment and tack is 21.5 stones, or 136kg. That is 30% rider/horse weight , which by any standard is way over what the horse should be expected to carry.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You've also got the issue of saddle size too.

I have a really long upper leg, so need saddles that are longer, therefore a longer horse without being overly long in the back for its frame as that would effect weight carrying ability.

I can get away with shorter saddles, as I don't have a huge butt but that's got to have some effect on how the weight is distributed and potential to cause issues so I wouldn't want to do that on the daily.

I personally, like Arabs. But if I was getting one to ride I'd have to be at a much lower weight, find one that has the right proportions to carry a longer saddle as they are often shorter in the back. They are tough horses and reasonable weight carriers (the proper Arab types rather than the spindly ones) but no good being a weight carrier if the saddle isn't fitting you both

ETA - lots of h/w cobs are short in the back too. Might look more than capable of carrying me but I worry about the long term issues with badly fitting saddle and weight distribution. A warm blood, good bone, and on the bigger side, might actually be a better long term horse for me, even though that's not the traditional weight carrier.

Arab's are pretty tough but when I used to frequent Arab shows years ago I've seen so many ridden by people that were far too heavy, I remember seeing a 4 year old small grey gelding ridden by a known producer back then and she was a very large woman, I kid you not the poor horse just would not canter so she had to come out, I remember thinking why on earth would you pay someone to show your horse that is clearly far too heavy especially a just backed 4 year old.

Absolutely crazy

 

[SDMabel]

It's selfish in my opinion, if they want to be that heavy that's on them.
But to inflict that onto a horse and expect it to carry you isn't ok .

I think things are slowly changing in the UK , at a big show recently judges went round giving out special awards for riders that were suitably in proportion (height and weight) on horses/ponies that were also kept at a good weight (that's another can of worms)

Although you still see overweight riders and judges/stewards do not pull them up on it ...

 

[The Xmas Furry]

A load is always easier to carry if it is well placed, no, it's not about riding lighter, it's about saddle fitting and the influence on way of going. Horses are harmed by light riders if they're allowed to move in compromised patterns, and yes a heavy rider will compound that, but a well loaded heavier rider may actually do less damage, if they ride the horse to move correctly, than the lighter rider.

I agree that there are clear cases of overweight riders, but the language we use, and our lack of understanding of the horse-saddle-rider interaction, isn't helpful to understanding the nuance here.

I prefer to put it that any rider too heavy will harm their mount.

Let's not add riding style and influences to muddy the waters about riders who are too heavy, please.

 

[TwyfordM]

Arab's are pretty tough but when I used to frequent Arab shows years ago I've seen so many ridden by people that were far too heavy, I remember seeing a 4 year old small grey gelding ridden by a known producer back then and she was a very large woman, I kid you not the poor horse just would not canter so she had to come out, I remember thinking why on earth would you pay someone to show your horse that is clearly far too heavy especially a just backed 4 year old.

Absolutely crazy

It's nuts in the showing side
My friend has 4 Arabs. One is solid, straight Egyptian. 14.3hh, very wide, but not much bone. Even at my lightest weight, I wouldn't want to get on her as she's just petite and I would be far too tall.
Another one is 15hh, very solid, good bone, longer in the back than her mare and stocky.
I might get on him.

Another is 16hh, wide, bone and when muscled up, easily be able to take maybe 12st regularly. But quite long in the back for anything heavier

4th is actually nicely put together, compact, bone. Around 15.2. Nicely proportioned. Best of all the types IMO. He's related to the straight Egyptian mare above so has the looks but a bit more height, bone and not so short in the back. Tough as nails, proper old fashioned useful Arab!
Perfect really, hence why he was used for breeding

You could never justify anything above 13/14st on them though.

These are all fit as anything endurance racers too, who each excel in different areas due to their different breeding.

 

[Glitter's fun]

As I understand it, the studies that came up with the advised percentages were not conducted using beginner riders using ill-fitting tack.

I'm sure those things do further reduce the weight limit. Both the RSs that I know what their weight policy is, reduce a given horse's rider weight limit by 1 stone for beginner/disabled/unbalanced rider.

The rider OP describes is not going to benefit from an argument about fine margins and exact tack fit, from the sound of things!

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I wonder if I know your friend I probably do!

My 2 are pretty substantial they are Polish Russian lines and they tend to be bigger in general, Arabi is just under 15h and his got a fair amount of bone but his always had a bit of a dipped back so I won't put anyone that heavy on him I'm only 9 stone.

Louis is 15.3 but his finer in the legs but his had heavier people ride him in the past, my old instructor was a man but although he was tall he was so slim and he schooled him for years without any problems, I'm more careful who rides him now because he has hock arthritis and navicular.

They used to have quite alot of male ride judges years ago for the Arab's as well.

As you say though some Arab's are tiny and so petite abd they definitely can't carry that kind of weight.

 

[TwyfordM]

I wonder if I know your friend I probably do!

My 2 are pretty substantial they are Polish Russian lines and they tend to be bigger in general, Arabi is just under 15h and his got a fair amount of bone but his always had a bit of a dipped back so I won't put anyone that heavy on him I'm only 9 stone.

Louis is 15.3 but his finer in the legs but his had heavier people ride him in the past, my old instructor was a man but although he was tall he was so slim and he schooled him for years without any problems, I'm more careful who rides him now because he has hock arthritis and navicular.

They used to have quite alot of male ride judges years ago for the Arab's as well.

As you say though some Arab's are tiny and so petite abd they definitely can't carry that kind of weight.

The 16hh one is called Buzz, he's pretty notorious

 

[sbloom]

I prefer to put it that any rider too heavy will harm their mount.

Let's not add riding style and influences to muddy the waters about riders who are too heavy, please.

I see the difference all the time.

We can leave it out (although I have explicitly excluded riding STYLE or how well balanced a rider feels they can make themselves, it's about how the saddle sits the rider, where and how the load is carried, an area not well understood) or we can find more nuanced ways of looking at this.

 

[Cortez]

I see the difference all the time.

We can leave it out (although I have explicitly excluded riding STYLE, it's about how the saddle sits the rider, where and how the load is carried, not well understood) or we can find more nuanced ways of looking at this.

Let's not (find more nuance), it's a pretty straightforward problem.

 

[Melody Grey]

@sbloom - just curious, in your line of work as a saddle fitter, I’m sure you must see many mismatched horse and rider combinations. Do you/ how do you deal with this tactfully? I don’t envy you, it must be really challenging.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

@sbloom - just curious, in your line of work as a saddle fitter, I’m sure you must see many mismatched horse and rider combinations. Do you/ how do you deal with this tactfully? I don’t envy you, it must be really challenging.

I asked my saddle fitter this when she came out last week - she said she does not deal with it tactfully and has chosen to just leave if she doesn't agree with the partnership or the soundness of the horse and the rider is not open to discussion. She made the point that she does not desire to work with people who are either oblivious, or do not support her views on horse welfare... fair point I thought.

 

[sbloom]

@sbloom - just curious, in your line of work as a saddle fitter, I’m sure you must see many mismatched horse and rider combinations. Do you/ how do you deal with this tactfully? I don’t envy you, it must be really challenging.

Very gently, it's almost always a mental health related issue at whatever level, and I'm coming AFTER a vet, physio and trainer in most cases none of whom have said it's an issue. If I feel they're onside with welfare and my approach to saddle fitting (especially horses' posture and way of going and our effect on it) then we can usually work it out and come up with a long term plan. it's never straightforward and I've definitely had customers in the early days whose weight was an issue with not being able to get the horse's back looking as good as I wanted.

In how many cases would the owner go off and find someone that said everything was fine? There is no 100% right decision here but at least I know I can look at sitting them as well as possible to help the horse. It is NOT just about a well fitting saddle spreading weight as far as possible, it really isn't. In fact some of the bigger saddles with large panels can still put all the rider's weight in the least functional place.

I know so much more nowadays though and there ARE more ways to tackle it with the borderline cases with groundwork, restricting what kind of ridden work, and for how long, and sitting the rider optimally - as I say, it's not black and white, it really isn't.

I asked my saddle fitter this when she came out last week - she said she does not deal with it tactfully and has chosen to just leave if she doesn't agree with the partnership or the soundness of the horse and the rider is not open to discussion. She made the point that she does not desire to work with people who are either oblivious, or do not support her views on horse welfare... fair point I thought.

Absolutely, though if they're not interested in equine welfare they'd likely not have found me in the first place, I'm not exactly the regular local saddle fitter.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Whilst a better fitting saddle for both horse and rider is bound to help distribute rider weight better, it is still no excuse for an overweight rider . Less well fitting tack means that the rider should be even lighter, not that they are allowed to be heavier if it all fits well.

My saddle fitter takes the bull by the horns and at her base, where she does most fittings, she offers weight checks for the rider plus all tack. Whilst these are voluntary, apparently rarely do riders refuse. Occasionally there will be a weigh bridge at the yard for the horses, too.

There might well be mental health issues involved re food intake for riders, but carrying too heavy a rider is a very physical issue for a horse, and there is no excuse for it.

 

[JGC]

I've said this on the forum before, but I have had chunks of time off riding the horse in my avatar because of going over what I calculated as her weight limit, only to be repeatedly told that I'm fine, I should crack etc. etc.

The weight limit is the limit. She's currently off for a suspensory - the rehab is going to be in long reins and if I can't get back down to the right weight I will not be getting back on!

There's a girl at the stables who mentioned her weight the other day (same as mine), but her horse is only half a hand bigger than my cob, but Iberian and very finely built and 18 years old - I can't believe that she's under 20 per cent with tack, as he must be significantly lighter than my cob. But she is the loveliest person and a beautiful rider who very much loves her horse. Thinking I'll somehow bring up my determination to lose weight to ride my cob again and mention our actual weights (mine and coblet).

 

[GrassChop]

I live in Australia and am curious to see what the general consensus is in other countries regarding overweight riders?

I was recently kicked off a Facebook group for telling a rider she is too big to ride any horse, let alone the 15hh TB she was sitting on. This person is 125 kilos (19 stone) however, out of the 100 or so comments, I was the only person to comment negatively, everyone else was saying ''oh you look fine'' and ''as long as you are a balanced rider your size doesn't matter''.

I felt like I was in some parallel universe! It's so crazy to me that so many people thought this was OK, is it this widely accepted everywhere else or is it only here?

To put it into perspective, that's just over 6 bags of feed (20kg bags) just plonked in the middle of the horse's back...

 

[sbloom]

Whilst a better fitting saddle for both horse and rider is bound to help distribute rider weight better, it is still no excuse for an overweight rider . Less well fitting tack means that the rider should be even lighter, not that they are allowed to be heavier if it all fits well.

I have been very specific about this, it is not about a well fitting saddle for the horse that "spreads weight" as far as possible. It is about physics and load, where and how that is placed.

How do Highlands carry 200kg stags? Because they way they're loaded means they have less physical effect on the pony. Looking at packing I've seen that some people balance the load within 100g each side, unbelievable focus on symmetrical loading. Now they're only walking but....compare that to a lightweight rider hanging 3" off one side because they're so crooked - riders are levers sitting up above the horse and have a massive effect on the actual physical forces acting on the horse (so tall riders can be problematic too). Minimise these forces by stabilising the rider in order to stabilise the horse and it really can change everything.

Who's going to tell Erik Herbermann he was too heavy for this pony that he worked up to GP? I bet he did a ton of groundwork weekly, rode for short periods as well as optimising posture when he did ride (obv!).

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/herbermannpart2FEAT-e1606512913110.jpeg

This rider you mention, lighter than what? Heavier than what? 15% with tack? 20% with tack? It's all very finely balanced and I'm saying that there are other things in the balance too, not considered even by most saddle fitters. We should look to the horse and the whole team looking after the combo to come up with a plan that works for the horse and, wherever possible, works for the rider too. Horse welfare ALWAYS comes first, I am not debating that.

 

[AutumnDays]

I get told I'd be fine to get on my young Arab x Appy, or the older lad, and go for a gentle hack all the time... I beg to differ. I'm 5ft 11, and have crept up to 11 stone, due to limited exercise from nerve damage, that also makes me unbalanced standing, let alone riding! Girlie is only just 14h! And has got her own issues to boot, and while she would let me get on, because she's a sweetheart, doesn't mean I will subject her to that! And the lad isn't ridden due to being broken (bought him knowing this), but get told he's big enough (15.3h) and could manage a gentle plod with me... I don't get it. I'm made out to be unreasonable for not riding, and to be insinuating others are too big and/or unbalanced (some are) by saying I am when I'm slimmer than them, so being a passive aggressive cow bag... I'm not, I'm stating the obvious about myself, and if that touches a nerve then maybe you need to have a good honest look at yourself and question if your horse's welfare trumps your desire to ride?
It seems those of us who are honest to ourselves about our weight and balance etc, and not riding and working on rectifying, are inadvertently "shaming" the ones who won't admit the same, without directly saying it?! Urgh, people

 

[Tiddlypom]

Sbloom, I agree with you about physics and forces - I have Physics A level .

We do seem to be going round in circles, though. An ill balanced lighter rider will indeed exert extra forces over those from a well balanced rider of the same weight. So the ill balanced rider needs to be lighter than a well balanced rider, but the well balanced rider should still not be too heavy for the horse.

 

[Grassy]

I see a lady hacking near me who is very large on quite a small pony, maybe 14hh, you can barely see the saddle as her thighs & bottom completely cover it, you can just see the cantle. Pony has ears back, looking unhappy & his back is dipped. She’s often hacking in company, why doesn’t her yard manager say something?!

 

[GrassChop]

Having said this, if it is worked out by the weight of the horse that dictates the rider weight then what if you have one fine build pony at 450kg and one chunky build pony at 450kg. Would they both only be able to take a maximum of 10.5 stone including the saddle still? Worked out at 15%.

 

[saddlesore]

It’s a serious welfare issue imo, and the arguments of heavier riders riding ‘lighter’ than others as they are in good balance doesn’t hold weight (pardon the pun) with me. You weigh what you weigh and it’s up to each individual to ensure they are a suitable weight for their horse.

 

[sbloom]

Sbloom, I agree with you about physics and forces - I have Physics A level .

We do seem to be going round in circles, though. An ill balanced lighter rider will indeed exert extra forces over those from a well balanced rider of the same weight. So the ill balanced rider needs to be lighter than a well balanced rider, but the well balanced rider should still not be too heavy for the horse.

You do and yet we're talking about different things. I'm talking about loading the back, about how do we place the rider, how do we optimise their skeleton, to help the horse carry any rider - you're talking more about rider ability. And you're still talking about weight as an absolute whereas I'm saying "it depends". Yes, if there are issues then the heavier the rider the more the issues will be compounded, of course, but there are other options than make one set weight limit a much more difficult thing to decide.

We would agree on the clear cut cases, of course, and 19 stones on a 15hh horse is never going to be acceptable (even on a drum horse I would imagine!) but there is so much grey before we get to that point. And imagine instead of simply berating heavier riders we found ways to help them spend time with their horses, develop the horse's posture and at the same time get the rider fitter (and probably lighter, but exercise alone is not the best way of achieving that)...instead we focus on riding several times a week for as long as we like and then focus on the rider weight. We need a much better lens on all this stuff - I'm asking for the moon on a stick but we need to have these conversations, they'd benefit the equine population as much or as more as banning very heavy riders.

 

[sbloom]

It’s a serious welfare issue imo, and the arguments of heavier riders riding ‘lighter’ than others as they are in good balance doesn’t hold weight (pardon the pun) with me. You weigh what you weigh and it’s up to each individual to ensure they are a suitable weight for their horse.

I agree, it's not about riding lighter (whatever that means as I'm not sure anyone could define it), it's about loading and physical forces, how we optimise both skeletons together to be more efficient and healthier. My discussion is not one about riding lighter or more "well balanced",

 

[toppedoff]

To put it into perspective, that's just over 6 bags of feed (20kg bags) just plonked in the middle of the horse's back...

Thank you for that actually, now I know how heavy that is with a good idea. Jesus christ poor horse

 

[Abacus]

I see the difference all the time.

We can leave it out (although I have explicitly excluded riding STYLE or how well balanced a rider feels they can make themselves, it's about how the saddle sits the rider, where and how the load is carried, an area not well understood) or we can find more nuanced ways of looking at this.

Presumably (in response also to some previous posts) we should be considering pressure as well as weight. Overall weight is a fixed number of kg that may or may not be within what a healthy fit horse could carry. But the pressure exerted by that weight on the saddle might affect comfort as well as ability to carry the overall weight (large rider in small saddle is more pressure, over the area of the saddle). And whatever weight the rider, they will cause discomfort in a badly fitting saddle as a result of the pressure being badly distributed. This would be compounded by a poorly balanced or novice rider. I don’t pretend to fully understand this particularly in relation to rider position etc (as sbloom eloquently mentioned earlier), but it’s another factor that compounds the weight issue.

 

[Arzada]

Thank you for that actually, now I know how heavy that is with a good idea. Jesus christ poor horse

To help further toppedoff after I'd finished losing weight I was 20kgs lighter. I'm reminded regularly just how hard it is to carry 20kgs when I wrestle a bag of Speedibeet or a bag of cubes or a bag of linseed from my car into the feed room.

 

[sbloom]

Presumably (in response also to some previous posts) we should be considering pressure as well as weight. Overall weight is a fixed number of kg that may or may not be within what a healthy fit horse could carry. But the pressure exerted by that weight on the saddle might affect comfort as well as ability to carry the overall weight (large rider in small saddle is more pressure, over the area of the saddle). And whatever weight the rider, they will cause discomfort in a badly fitting saddle as a result of the pressure being badly distributed. This would be compounded by a poorly balanced or novice rider. I don’t pretend to fully understand this particularly in relation to rider position etc (as sbloom eloquently mentioned earlier), but it’s another factor that compounds the weight issue.

I think we have to assume a well fitting saddle - the traditional model is to try and spread the weight evenly across the seat from front to back and side to side so by definition we're assuming no pressure points. I'm talking about putting the weight where (and how) the horse can carry it best. A larger rider in a smaller saddle might actually be placed optimatlly over the horse's centre of gravity (a smaller seat helps with that) and might be aligned so well (weight via a 3 point seat and down the inner thighs) that the horse can work posturally incredibly effectively. There are SO many factors to take into account.