Cortez
Tough but Fair
And both statements are correct and support each other. Can you explain why you are differentiating?
Pandering to overweight riders
- Thread starter shanti
- Start date
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I wonder how we'd judge suitable weights here, the befores and afters? How much % difference might there be from one to the other? (sorry for German link, is safe, must be my VPN!) Before and after rehab:
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and before and after better saddle (along the lines I'm talking about, loading the horse well, optimising the skeleton of both):
SB I don't think any conclusions can be drawn about rider weight from 2 photos taken at such a different point in a horse's stride.
I agree with you totally about so many horses moving wrongly. But I kind of wish you'd start another thread about it instead of appearing to provide excuses for people who are simply too heavy for the horses they are riding.
Whatever your personal top weight is, and mine is 15% as I've said, then all sorts of things (conformation, age, fitness, training, rider ability) reduce that weight but nothing increases it.
GrassChop
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. I've seen two women, both the same height and same weight but one looked a lot bigger than the other wearing size 14 clothing and the other in size 10. Muscle contributes largely to the weight of someone so without facts, it's very hard to tell.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
To me there is a big problem with making weight some sort of shameful thing that no one is allowed to mention, and the result is animal abuse, because it really IS abuse to expect horses to carry too much weight. I also believe that it has resulted in failing a huge number of children, because no one will discuss these issues with them and help them achieve and maintain a healthy weight for fear of being seen as unkind. Among my generation parents and teachers would have no problem in telling a child if they needed to lose a few pounds, the problem today is that is is ignored until the child becomes obese, and then it really is a sensitive subject for them.
In relation to horses too many people go with the 'oh but you are fine' route. I recently stopped riding my schoolmistress and found a child to ride her. It is not an issue that I am carrying excess body fat, or even that I would not fall within guidelines for what weight she can carry, but simply that as an older pony I could see that she was more comfortable with a lighter rider. I could not believe the number of people who told me that I was being ridiculous, that she could easily carry me etc. It is true that she could carry me, but not that she should.
Saying that someone is too heavy to ride a horse has nothing to do with fat shaming. It is not saying that they should be a different weight, just that the horse is unsuitable for them. It does not matter whether the weight is due to fat / muscle / height - I could not carry a 50kg bag of cement or a 50kg bag of frogs - it would just be too heavy. From what I see shows go out of their way to deal with the matter discreetly, but the sad reality is that as long as anyone who questions the suitability of the rider / horse is made to feel that they are a bully then the problem will continue to be swept under the carpet. I don't blame Cortez for not wanting to be a Judge, seems to me that in that circumstance you just cannot avoid offending people even if you are stating the obvious.
In relation to horses too many people go with the 'oh but you are fine' route. I recently stopped riding my schoolmistress and found a child to ride her. It is not an issue that I am carrying excess body fat, or even that I would not fall within guidelines for what weight she can carry, but simply that as an older pony I could see that she was more comfortable with a lighter rider. I could not believe the number of people who told me that I was being ridiculous, that she could easily carry me etc. It is true that she could carry me, but not that she should.
Saying that someone is too heavy to ride a horse has nothing to do with fat shaming. It is not saying that they should be a different weight, just that the horse is unsuitable for them. It does not matter whether the weight is due to fat / muscle / height - I could not carry a 50kg bag of cement or a 50kg bag of frogs - it would just be too heavy. From what I see shows go out of their way to deal with the matter discreetly, but the sad reality is that as long as anyone who questions the suitability of the rider / horse is made to feel that they are a bully then the problem will continue to be swept under the carpet. I don't blame Cortez for not wanting to be a Judge, seems to me that in that circumstance you just cannot avoid offending people even if you are stating the obvious.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
I am a skinny short arse.
I am 5’3” and have just weighed myself dressed (but not wearing riding kit) at a whisker under 8 stone.
My horse is a sturdily (but not heavily) built 15 h welsh x.
I then weighed myself carrying riding kit including saddle / boots / helmet / a heavy BP (a kan teq) and bridle.
Want to guess?
10 stone!
So if my horse is say 440kg (guessing that to be his ideal weight) that makes us a whisker under 15%.
If he is more like 450kg then we are at 16.5% !
I might dug out a photo to illustrate how tiny I look compared to him yet we have much less margin for error than I thought.
There must be a lot of people over the 15% or even 20% rule.
I don’t agree about the photo of the illustrious German rider riding the small horse/ pony up thread - I say he is too heavy no matter how well he rides or the horse is conditioned.
Yes you can improve the horse’s posture and how the saddle positions the rider over the CoG but have you measured the pressure under the saddle? if the horse is so close to its limits that it’s movement looked compromised (before making the adjustments) then the rider will still be doing damage to the horse’s back, joints etc even with improved posture / saddle arrangement etc.
As someone once commented before on these sorts of threads, a horse’s ideal rider weight is zero.
I am 5’3” and have just weighed myself dressed (but not wearing riding kit) at a whisker under 8 stone.
My horse is a sturdily (but not heavily) built 15 h welsh x.
I then weighed myself carrying riding kit including saddle / boots / helmet / a heavy BP (a kan teq) and bridle.
Want to guess?
10 stone!
So if my horse is say 440kg (guessing that to be his ideal weight) that makes us a whisker under 15%.
If he is more like 450kg then we are at 16.5% !
I might dug out a photo to illustrate how tiny I look compared to him yet we have much less margin for error than I thought.
There must be a lot of people over the 15% or even 20% rule.
I don’t agree about the photo of the illustrious German rider riding the small horse/ pony up thread - I say he is too heavy no matter how well he rides or the horse is conditioned.
Yes you can improve the horse’s posture and how the saddle positions the rider over the CoG but have you measured the pressure under the saddle? if the horse is so close to its limits that it’s movement looked compromised (before making the adjustments) then the rider will still be doing damage to the horse’s back, joints etc even with improved posture / saddle arrangement etc.
As someone once commented before on these sorts of threads, a horse’s ideal rider weight is zero.
GrassChop
Well-Known Member
Agree that nothing increases it.
However, out of interest (not just pointed to you to answer ycbm, sorry!) if you have one chunky horse and one fine horse both weighing the same with the same level of fitness, does the weight percentage still apply? As it seems like the percentage is an overall limit that applies to all but surely each horse would be different too. Sort of on the other spectrum to the topic of rider ability, height, build etc but for the horse instead.
I agree that the weight is the weight but there are so many other things to consider, aren't there?
Roxylola
Well-Known Member
The difficulty with basing things on fact is that the people who are the problem won't confirm their (or the horse's) weight. And if you ask then you're "fat shaming"
Go ahead and ask for figures and you'll get - oh but he's got bone, or she carries me easily, or if she didn't want to she wouldn't do it etc
The people who will be up front about the numbers are the ones who are an appropriate size for their mounts.
And there is a line where you are simply too heavy to ride, but that's inevitably not going to be someone who's fit and muscular and then anyone making the point is likely to be an appropriate size and then there's a raft of issues asking someone their weight etc.
I do think there needs to be an over arching x weight is too heavy for any horse to carry enforced by all societies charities etc
Go ahead and ask for figures and you'll get - oh but he's got bone, or she carries me easily, or if she didn't want to she wouldn't do it etc
The people who will be up front about the numbers are the ones who are an appropriate size for their mounts.
And there is a line where you are simply too heavy to ride, but that's inevitably not going to be someone who's fit and muscular and then anyone making the point is likely to be an appropriate size and then there's a raft of issues asking someone their weight etc.
I do think there needs to be an over arching x weight is too heavy for any horse to carry enforced by all societies charities etc
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
Yes very true. I once commented to a friend of mine that she had lost weight, looked really trim. In actual fact she told me she was a stone heavier as she was doing Tai Kwon Du and now very fit. If you could have seen before and after pics you would have been hard put to believe it.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is saying that there is a 'perfect' rule that every single horse can carry x % of it's own weight, just that there is a maximum which would be reasonable in most cases. Obviously in the case of very fine horses, older, very young, or previously injured horses, this would need to be reduced.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Works the other way too. I went from 8.5 to 8 stone in a week last year and to the casual observer I look exactly the same as I did - it was all muscle that went.
Z3bby
Active Member
All these women could ride the same horse but some may look bigger in the saddle while others may look smaller but all within the capabilities of the same horse.
That why I don’t think just observations are good enough.
ETA: all women weigh 68kg according to the article I found the photo on.
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Roxylola
Well-Known Member
Nothing in that image indicates their weights are the same but assuming that they are.
Not disputing that, go ahead and ask people though and let us know how that goes for you...
None of those women are light enough to ride a section B though, and none are so heavy they ought not ride at all, I'd take a punt they're all under 14 stone
Z3bby
Active Member
68kg/10st9 according to the article.
So using a 20% rule and adding 12kg for tack/clothing they could theoretically ride a 400kg+ horse.
But regardless that’s not really the point, the point is they all look very different, different dress sizes ect/ carry weight differently
In general this has been a good discussion. I think we all agree that welfare must come first. We just disagree on the best way to accomplish higher welfare standards.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Dress size has little to nothing to do with weight, dress sizes are not even standardised from one manufacturer/retailer to another (they have also changed over time, a UK size 10 now used to be size 14). Weight is an absolute: you weigh what you weigh.
ETA: I don't think you have told us your method to define higher welfare standards though?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It’s the world we live in .
Thinking and saying that excess weight is detrimental to a horses welfare is not the same as being unpleasant to someone who is overweight but it’s treated as being the same thing as by some people .
Thinking and saying that excess weight is detrimental to a horses welfare is not the same as being unpleasant to someone who is overweight but it’s treated as being the same thing as by some people .
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
Exactly - saying
'You are too heavy for that horse'
is not the same as saying
'You are too heavy'
Why do people behave as if it is?
'You are too heavy for that horse'
is not the same as saying
'You are too heavy'
Why do people behave as if it is?
Z3bby
Active Member
I didn’t say they did.
Pick a research backed percentage ratio and enforce it within organisations, venues ect.
GoldenWillow
Well-Known Member
I have just done this same thing this morning! 5'4" 56kg so just under 9st, pony 14.2 medium weight cob with 9 1/2" bone weighs 480 ideal weight. At 15% rule I have between 5 - 10kg leeway depending on specific tack. That I only had 5kg leeway really surprised me, not a lot!
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
If we're going to go down the rabbit hole, what about the land youngstock grow up on? The traditional centres of TB breeding ended up on high calcium soils because of the positive effects on bone development, but there are presumably plenty of horses bred on soils low in calcium (my neighbour's youngster, for example - our soils are stunningly low in calcium and I supplement for that but when I said this and offered to send her the analysis she wasn't interested. She's a sturdy lady now riding a light-boned horse with potentially less than great bone formation) - is there any evidence at all for the effects on bone development in such cases? And of course there's no way of just looking at such a horse and saying it needs a lighter rider.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
By posting the picture that you did you have implied that this is something you feel is a useful illustration, non?
The 15%/20% ratio is the result of research, getting organisations to enforce it is another thing, presumably because they are worried about being accused of fat-shaming, which brings us back in a circular, not to say rotund, way to the beginning of the argument: what is more important, the horse's welfare or overweight people's feelings.
FestiveG
Over the hill and far awa
Plus of course not all riding is done within the auspices of any organisation, I'm fairly sure that there will be many unsuitable combinations within the purely leisure riding fraternity.
m1stify
Well-Known Member
I do agree with some riders being too heavy for the horses, but I do think it is directed mainly at female riders? I never hear anyone say anything in RL about men being too heavy for their mounts, when female riders are more commented on. I even do it myself. Men weigh a lot more than women, even though they may appear trim.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
There are of course exponentially more female riders than male riders, and I have most certainly told heavy male riders not to ride the horses they are on
Z3bby
Active Member
The only point was to illustrate the same weight looks different on different builds/body compositions ect. (Forgot to include the weight when I posted the photo, apologies).
Horse welfare, I’ve never stated different.
GrassChop
Well-Known Member
I think Z3bby's point was that every person looks different so you can't judge that someone is too heavy just by looking at them. I'm sure if you put the size 18/5ft4 lady on a 475kg pony, people may see her as too big/heavy but she'd actually be just over the 15% limit with tack included.
Arzada
Well-Known Member
I imagine that if you are sensitive about your weight (maybe it has been adversely commented on previously) you hear "You are too heavy" and not 'You are too heavy for that horse'.
I can't speak from experience of weight but there are things that I am very sensitive about and my feelings of upset, inadequacy etc are easily triggered. I don't respond because I've learned know that I may have got it wrong. So when I reflect later and more calmly I realise that I heard something that wasn't spoken or written.
TPO
Well-Known Member
But why are someone's feelings more important than the animals' welfare?
People can be whatever weight they want, nowt to do with me. But if you are selfish enough to put a too heavy weight on a horse, then someone needs to say something because they haven't the brains themselves. So yes, it is important that it's "too heavy to be on horseback" rather than just "you're overweight," which is no one else's concern apart from yours and your doctor. You can choose to hear whatever you want.
IME people aren't cruel and don't speak up for the sake of it. If someone is speaking up or having a quiet word it's usually because they are *very* concerned [for the horse].
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I do think a thirteen stone woman gets more raised eyebrows that a thirteen stone man on the same horse
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
There’s a culture of whatever you want is your truth and everyone better believe it and yes pander to it or else
It’s getting more and more prevalent.
You see it in its extreme in the knots public bodies are turning themselves in over trans rights
Thinking there are only two sexes is not the same as being hateful to trans people
This exactly the same thing you get with some extremely fat people where horses aside, you are supposed to believe that it’s perfectly healthy to be obese .
It’s not .
I also object to the use of the term phobic in these contexts it’s poor use of language.
It’s getting more and more prevalent.
You see it in its extreme in the knots public bodies are turning themselves in over trans rights
Thinking there are only two sexes is not the same as being hateful to trans people
This exactly the same thing you get with some extremely fat people where horses aside, you are supposed to believe that it’s perfectly healthy to be obese .
It’s not .
I also object to the use of the term phobic in these contexts it’s poor use of language.
Arzada
Well-Known Member
They are absolutely not. I am firmly on the side of the horse. I was replying to the question Why do people behave... post #106. Perhaps I didn't word my response very well. I'm trying to say that some people may, for whatever reason, only hear the first part of the statement ie 'You are too heavy' not the rest of the statement "for that horse' . If someone said to me 'you are too ugly to be Sleeping Beauty' and I was overly sensitive about something about my features I would most likely only hear 'you are too ugly'