Panorama tonight - racing industry and slaughterhouses

Old school

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Sorry to butt in again....But it is good that racing is being put under a spotlight. In ROI, big yards, small yards, mmh yards all chase the €€€. Once that is your God, your actions are influenced outside of any moral code. I know of a massive yard that regularly have a dead one that 'broke down' and pts in the yard as training gallop so deep, another that has a dreadful bend and many go down with pelvis issue, another that really doesn't feed them. I have loads of experience of equines, but not as professional. People become desensitized to what us right and what is wrong. Social media and the commercial aspect has created this vacuum. If it highlighted for voiceless horse and people get burned, so be it.
 

Lipglosspukka

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Lipglosspukka - sorry if I offended you by using the New Forest round ups as an example, it's great that they don't go for bin end prices any more but obviously the stigma still sticks. But people are changing that stigma by buying the ponies before the meat men do which is great.
You didn't offend me. It's just important that the information you provided is corrected.

Amazing work has been done to improve the quality of the New Forest Pony. Stallions used to run out all year round and now just a handful go out for a few weeks.

People aren't buying the ponies before the meat man does. They are making brilliant prices. He wouldn't have a look in.

https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.u...SfYvIZy_3PJmb7bhkaN6T3x9ZVWAy3DjAy8w_XDN3CHMk
 

palo1

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Its on BBC news now, I am afraid I wont be watching later as it will upset me too much. Its just so sad that we breed these animals for our entertainment and this is how we repay them. I really hate humans sometimes.
I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too. It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture. The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think. Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff. I get how you feel though.
 

littleshetland

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Its on BBC news now, I am afraid I wont be watching later as it will upset me too much. Its just so sad that we breed these animals for our entertainment and this is how we repay them. I really hate humans sometimes.
We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.
 

honetpot

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Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.
Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies.

The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.

The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so. Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
 

littleshetland

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We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.
I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too. It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture. The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think. Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff. I get how you feel though.
'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past. I think it's time it stopped now.
 

humblepie

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The BHA has a huge programme ongoing - have a look on the BHA website horse welfare pages to see the work in progress.
 

palo1

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'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past. I think it's time it stopped now.
I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple. I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses. I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry. I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view. It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded? Do you know and understand all the factors involved?
 
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[QUOTE="At the same time, the BBC hasn't currently got especially high standards for their investigative journalism on some issues; they need to pull in big audiences and I guess since before Martin Bashir lied and connived to make compelling viewing there has been a greater or lesser degree of integrity loss there too. I will probably watch the programme or possibly not but evidence taken from Animal Aid is never going to be in any way impartial or capable of putting across the big picture reality of racing/racehorses. Gawd, the Beeb is getting desperate!![/QUOTE]

Can't help but agree. Its interesting how much air promotion time the BBC are giving tonight's programme. It was mentioned on Radio 4's Today programme at 6.30am, then again throughout the day. Personally, I don't give much credence to BBC reporting these days especially after the Martin Bashir debacle. They just sensationalise.
 

Marigold4

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I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life.

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from.

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death.

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects.

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament.

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind.

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship.

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing.

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless.

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse.

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
 

Marigold4

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I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life.



The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from.

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death.

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects.

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament.

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from.

Saying racing two year olds is totally wrong but will never be stopped is pretty defeatist.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind.

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship.

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing.

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless.

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse.

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
 

Marigold4

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I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve said but none of it really deals with the issue in discussion and there is a lot of “Whataboutery” and I’ll say “so what?”

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here disagree that humane destruction isn’t a good option for some provided it is humane. I do find it hard to swallow that any life is not respected and the best done for that life as best we can.

As to the quality of Panorama programmes I’d say the quality of journalism is absolutely rubbish. A recent one on fly-tipping was very inaccurate. It used examples in Wales to illustrate the Environment Agency failings - they don’t cover Wales anymore NRW does. It also showed how easy it was to get a waste carrier registration using a site that was not the genuine Gov.uk Site. It was a site mimicking the genuine site. There were other inaccuracies also, however the issues raised by the programme were ones that needed raising.
So all BBC Panorama programmes are rubbish and inaccurate? Over the years, Panorama has done a great job exposing all sorts of injustices - I am very glad I live in a country with a free press.
 

Elf On A Shelf

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Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies.

The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.

The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so. Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
I agree there is much more of a welfare problem in flat racing and the training centers because they are old school and will not or can not change their ways. There is nowhere to turn horses out en masse at Newmarket or Middleham and that is sadly taken as the way they do things and that's just that. Smaller yards and yards outwith the training centres take a lot more care of their horses and don't treat it as a factory for the most part. The bloodstock industry has a lot to answer for in the case of surrogate mares, over production of foals and essentially flooding the market with more of the same with very little variation.

There are parts of racing that I would not wish to be involved in at all and I can only hope that in time these practices that are seen as perfectly normal and acceptable in racing now are turned around and changed. It won't be an over night thing by any stretch of the imagination and money will always rule, as it does in all walks of life. But hopefully step by step, inch by inch we can change things for the better.
 

Marigold4

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Sorry to butt in again....But it is good that racing is being put under a spotlight. In ROI, big yards, small yards, mmh yards all chase the €€€. Once that is your God, your actions are influenced outside of any moral code. I know of a massive yard that regularly have a dead one that 'broke down' and pts in the yard as training gallop so deep, another that has a dreadful bend and many go down with pelvis issue, another that really doesn't feed them. I have loads of experience of equines, but not as professional. People become desensitized to what us right and what is wrong. Social media and the commercial aspect has created this vacuum. If it highlighted for voiceless horse and people get burned, so be it.
I agree - it is dominated by the need to make money and horses, sentient beings though they are, are treated very unfairly. Yes, horse racing employs a lot of people and its 'a way of life' but so does/is the drug trade - both are still morally indefensible.
 

Marigold4

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'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past. I think it's time it stopped now.
It really is time to do something drastic about this industry - very soon it will be law that horses are sentient beings - hopefully this will give horses more rights to be treated better
 

Elf On A Shelf

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Absolutely - it's all about the money to be made on betting. If we have to have betting on sport, have it on things like football rather than horses - these trusting biddable animals are treated appallingly and have no choice
Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? 😂😂 if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!
 

Sandstone1

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I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too. It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture. The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think. Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff. I get how you feel though.
A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood. That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap. Greyhound racing is much the same. use and discard. We should be ashamed of our selves.
 

Marigold4

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A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood. That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap. Greyhound racing is much the same. use and discard. We should be ashamed of our selves.[/s

Yes, we should be ashamed of ourselves for not saying and doing more to improve this - how can this be allowed to go on in this day and age? We know better.
 

Marigold4

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Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies.

The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.

The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so. Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
Thank you contributing a knowledgeable, fact-based and powerful response to that. (OP)
 

honetpot

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I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple. I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses. I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry. I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view. It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded? Do you know and understand all the factors involved?
The farm animal industry has government, and industry applied standards, nothing is ever perfect, and they could always be better, and you could not say, we already say,
'we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture'
and that is a bigger industry. Look at the new changes in farming, and the push to eat less meat.
The racing industry has spent millions on studying horses to make them go faster and be more successful at breeding, it already has a structure that controls the horse from preconception, to when it goes on the track, because that is where the money is, it is less interested in wastage. It has to be made interested. Even dog breed societies who do not have the money and power to enforce rules try and to help.
The fact MH was a government minister, and also is a local MP for Newmarket can not be ruled out in the lobbying case for racing, to continue. The hospitality industry had to close, and other equestrian sports were restricted and postponed, they also have an economic impact.
The racing industry has known about these problems for a long time, but while they can gloss over it, they will do, everyone knows everyone else and no one wants to put a vested interest's nose out of joint, unless of course there is more money in it.
 

honetpot

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Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? 😂😂 if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!
It's a bit like showjumping, it's what you do not see you need to worry about.
I would recommend anyone to go and have a day at the Newmarket Racing museum, the equestrian art is amazing, and look how racing developed, and who owns what, it explains a lot.
https://www.nhrm.co.uk/discover/
 

palo1

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A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood. That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap. Greyhound racing is much the same. use and discard. We should be ashamed of our selves.
Well yes, there is much to be ashamed of in relation to our treatment, attitudes and understanding of animals :( That doesn't mean that those things aren't deeply entangled with structures and ways of doing things that would be very difficult to simply eradicate. Attitude change needs to be systemic though and whilst people earn their livelihoods and base their lives around something, systemic change will be difficult. It's a bit of a curveball so bear with me but in countries and cultures where animals are NOT used for entertainment, food or economics they don't always fare better according to our cultural standards. Even where the life of animals is considered absolutely sacred, for example in Jainism where the principle of 'non-injury' is practised quite fundamentally, the lives of animals as we understand them here in the UK are not necessarily 'better'. It is a difficult subject. If you had ever visited a Jain animal hospice or sanctuary it would probably cause you to question some of the underlying views you may hold. It certainly did for me. But it is difficult and probably unhelpful to try to apply other standards and philosophical viewpoints to this situation where there is a disconnect between what 'outside' viewers want to see and what some parts of the industry find appropriate and acceptable.
 
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