9tails
Well-Known Member
My mistakes aren't professionally videoed then put into a training curriculum.
Parelli - yay or neigh?
- Thread starter Cheval Gal
- Start date
My mistakes aren't professionally videoed then put into a training curriculum.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Or demonstrated in front of crowds of thousands of people, many of whom got up and walked out in protest. (Catwalk).
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
Like, I don't think it's a massive thing to say that you'd hope that the instigators of a training system did it well and with compassion and understanding.
Parelli totally fails at that very fundamental level and they aren't the only ones to do so.
You can watch entire videos to try and observe this fabulous timing, and end up as confused as the horse appears to be with regards to what they are actually trying to do.
Parelli totally fails at that very fundamental level and they aren't the only ones to do so.
You can watch entire videos to try and observe this fabulous timing, and end up as confused as the horse appears to be with regards to what they are actually trying to do.
emilylou
Well-Known Member
Wiggling the rope is a natural horsemanship technique to teach a horse to back up with minimal pressure. It can actually work quite well but you should move the rope low to the ground below the horses head and as soon as the horse makes any attempt at a backwards movement, you stop immediately and allow the horse time to process before asking again. The idea is you can eventually teach the horse to back up with a very soft low wave of the leadrope instead of having to push on their chest, then eventually graduate to voice only command with a hand motion towards the chest.
The way Linda demonstrates it is all wrong. There is no reward of the horses attempt to move backwards in the beginning, her movement of the rope is hitting the horses face which is distressing. She totally ignores his attempts and increasing distress. As a result the horse shuts down and she resorts to whacking him to gain a response.
Just plain dreadful horsemanship.
And as for the video of Pat.. I'm sorry but if that is what he thinks is acceptable to do in a public demonstration who knows what he does behind closed doors. The 'good bits' don't make up for that in my mind.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Oh we all know she is purposely whacking it with the heavy clip you get on the end of a parelli line. . .
or as described by linda 'wiggle, wiggle, bump'
or as described by linda 'wiggle, wiggle, bump'
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is what gets me. I saw a pen full of them at HOYS once and I've never seen a group of more shut down animals. They looked like they were waiting to be told it was OK to breath.
.
9tails
Well-Known Member
HA! Linda, we can see what you're doing and that's yank, yank, thump.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
No, far from it. I have come across and mixed with many Parelli users. I have attended some Parelli demos, bought the dvd box sets up to L3, and I still possess a carrot stick
.It is a big con for very nervous horse people that sucked me in for a while. The loading advice was useful, ‘move the feet’, but that is all I now carry with me.
Fleecing numpties is fair game as long as no harm is done. Parelli is harmful to the horse.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
It's because while the aim of the programme appears to be based on 'pressure and release' (good) it is very easy to slip into 'learnt helplessness' (bad). Both Linda and Pat have done this as shown by the videos.
I think that this is the issue that I have with the whole thing. Learning from videos isn't the most effective way (understatement alert) of teaching the timing needed to keep things in the P&R side. It's too easy through bad timing or even through losing your cool to slip into LH. Having a good trainer with you in real life helps keep things away from LH.
Unfortunately there are issues with the Parelli programme that don't sit well with me and the water deprivation is a part of that (it's also against the five freedoms and is illegal in many european countries and yes horses have died), plus the imprinting on newborn foals etc...
It is also a big money making exercise and I do think that as that became bigger and bigger, the focus did change for the worse. Many people have told be that PP was a much better horseman before the 'Parelli system' was marketed in such a big way.
Another unfortunate thing is that I did come across a lot of people (normal amateur owners at DIY livery yards) who followed the Parelli system to the letter 10 plus years ago when it was very popular and it was not a positive experience. As others have said, it mainly ended in shut down horses who had been trained with LH. I've seen bad horsemanship with non-parelli people too of course but not that sort of cookie cutter production line where they all were making the same mistakes. Maybe I was unlucky as everyone I knew who did Parelli had reasons to try want to try another way. The main issue was that essentially they were frightened of their horse either on the ground or to ride. I don't remember them having many lessons with an instructor, so an amateur who is frightened of their horse is trying to follow a DVD programme. I think that situation does set many people and their horses up to fail.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
But those videos were made in public. L & P stand by their methods as exemplary. Definitely not for me. But I do agree with canteron that when working with horses, timing and body language are key.
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
What a sweet horse to put up with that!... I couldn't watch it all but was hoping it attacked them.
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Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
But a completely unnecessary method of teaching a horse to back up, imo. A friend kept her pony with us for a while, said pony was an escapologist and managed to get herself between our wall and next door's barbed wire. First time it happened friend wasn't there, we told pony (who was broken to drive, as well as ride) 'back' and she did, very smoothly until she got to the broken down bit of wall that she had used to escape. Next time friend was present and did the rope wiggling thing - pony's head shot up quarters moved over, so pony was in danger of catching herself on barbed wire, it could have been disastrous. Fortunately pony hadn't moved as far away from the 'bolt hole' this time, so no injury was incurred.
I can point to my cob's chest and she will back up without me uttering a word, if necessary. No rope wiggling was needed to teach her that.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Parelli = abuse.
I would never let anyone near my horse who uttered the words 'Parelli' or 'Natural Horsemanship'.
What happened to asking the horse to do something with a voice command - for example 'back', 'over', 'walk on', 'stand' or whatever.
Then, when they do it, liberal praise/reward.
And when they don't - no need to flap ropes, whips, carrot sticks, plastic bags at them like a panicked idiot.
Just explain it more clearly - so 'over' with a hand on their side until they get the idea.
Horses are generally nice people, who aim to please.
I would never let anyone near my horse who uttered the words 'Parelli' or 'Natural Horsemanship'.
What happened to asking the horse to do something with a voice command - for example 'back', 'over', 'walk on', 'stand' or whatever.
Then, when they do it, liberal praise/reward.
And when they don't - no need to flap ropes, whips, carrot sticks, plastic bags at them like a panicked idiot.
Just explain it more clearly - so 'over' with a hand on their side until they get the idea.
Horses are generally nice people, who aim to please.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
There was a Parelli trainer ar the Tik Maynard clinic last year. He was a lovely guy and hugely skilled with a lovely, calm, soft, alert young mare. A friend of my mother's was one of the original group of UK Parelli instructors. I rode one of her horses and she was a dream to ride. Just magical. So I think it is possible to follow Parelli and to be a great horseperson. But I loathe, loathe, loathe the marketing, the cultish fanaticism, the nonsense made up BS, the hype, the grandiosity, the pomposity and the planet sized ego. And the fact that they lose their cool with horses. And the fact that so many people do it so badly and damage the horses through endless drilling. A Parelli horse on my old yard was about the most depressed looking horse I've ever seen! Bored witless. After the 30,000th time he backed a way from a wiggling rope for no reason I wanted to bellow at the woman owner: "I THINK HE GETS THAT NOW!!!!"
The Fuzzy Furry
Getting old disgracefully
Shils. I completely agree with you.
Having had a couple of the P word trained (ha!) in my yard to retrain, I wouldn't advise most to be using it.
The moving the feet is something I've done since way before the Ps introduced it as their method. The handling of completely ferals is way different my way. I could go on, but if anyone mentions the P word then I'm changing the subject quickly or moving off into my own space!
Having had a couple of the P word trained (ha!) in my yard to retrain, I wouldn't advise most to be using it.
The moving the feet is something I've done since way before the Ps introduced it as their method. The handling of completely ferals is way different my way. I could go on, but if anyone mentions the P word then I'm changing the subject quickly or moving off into my own space!
P.forpony
Well-Known Member
Woweee can of worms! ?
My minor input, I’ve lived and worked with horses in North America, exposed to good natural horsemanship techniques which completely changed my way of working with horses for the better.
Fundamentally it’s supposed to be working with them in a way that they can understand the right answers, rather than using our own language and expecting them to understand.
Done well, with feel and sensitivity, it without doubt works better than any traditional method I grew up with.
HOWEVER! Parelli is NOT representative of natural horsemanship and I get really frustrated that he seems to be the most well known name in the UK.
It makes people dismissive of techniques that are genuinely useful and helpful to horses.
I’ve met him and seen him work with horses. I wouldn’t care to do either again. He is an excellent salesman though and has created a brand that has convinced many (usually nervous middle aged women) to part with a lot of money.
There are lot and lots of examples of good natural horsemanship out there, please don’t let Parelli put you off!
My minor input, I’ve lived and worked with horses in North America, exposed to good natural horsemanship techniques which completely changed my way of working with horses for the better.
Fundamentally it’s supposed to be working with them in a way that they can understand the right answers, rather than using our own language and expecting them to understand.
Done well, with feel and sensitivity, it without doubt works better than any traditional method I grew up with.
HOWEVER! Parelli is NOT representative of natural horsemanship and I get really frustrated that he seems to be the most well known name in the UK.
It makes people dismissive of techniques that are genuinely useful and helpful to horses.
I’ve met him and seen him work with horses. I wouldn’t care to do either again. He is an excellent salesman though and has created a brand that has convinced many (usually nervous middle aged women) to part with a lot of money.
There are lot and lots of examples of good natural horsemanship out there, please don’t let Parelli put you off!
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Actually the phrase 'natural horsemanship' really boils my piss.
As opposed to what? Unnatural horsemanship? And why don't we have natural goatmanship, or natural dogmanship, or catmanship? We don't really know what wild horses do in behavioural terms as there aren't any. Prezwalski's horses, which an old university colleague used to study, are feral at best, and the same applies to the Camargue horses.
So maybe we need to remove the feelgood word 'natural' and just revert to horsemanship. Then again, if someone has horsemanship skills, they generally don't have to flag it to you...
As opposed to what? Unnatural horsemanship? And why don't we have natural goatmanship, or natural dogmanship, or catmanship? We don't really know what wild horses do in behavioural terms as there aren't any. Prezwalski's horses, which an old university colleague used to study, are feral at best, and the same applies to the Camargue horses.
So maybe we need to remove the feelgood word 'natural' and just revert to horsemanship. Then again, if someone has horsemanship skills, they generally don't have to flag it to you...
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I'd be very interested to know how the retraining went and what issues you found. I've always passed over adverts that state a horse has been Parelli trained (or ones stating NH home -of any type- preferred) as I have been wary about needing to retrain the horse and maybe confusing it in the mean time.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
When I was doing private training, I had to help owners who had tried Parelli and it had gone wrong. It seemed to me that they had taken what could be a good program and made it 'by numbers' so owners weren't learning feel and think for themselves.
I saw many horses who had been dispirited, confused, bored. Those whose owners daren't ride them, which is OK in itself, but the owners were being kept very busy, thinking that what they were doing would help, when IME it would not.
The horses/riders tended to do better with lessons that were practical and less fanciful.
I saw many horses who had been dispirited, confused, bored. Those whose owners daren't ride them, which is OK in itself, but the owners were being kept very busy, thinking that what they were doing would help, when IME it would not.
The horses/riders tended to do better with lessons that were practical and less fanciful.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
The Parelli trained horses have always been 'rescued' but for some mysterious reason quickly find themselves up for sale again. I think everyone avoids any advert with any of these;
- 'Parelli'
- Picture of person riding with no hat
- 'Rescue'
- Picture of person standing on horse's back
- Bad conformation shot, cutting horse off at the pasterns
- 'Project'
HazuraJane
Well-Known Member
Parelli and his wife have flat-out abused horses in their clinics. A fish stinks from the head down.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Are you talking about pressure and release being used properly (well timed, clear link to the desired behaviour) by any chance?
If you are, I definitely agree that it is an effective way to train horses and that when done well it doesn't need to be harsh at all.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
From my experience "I do Parelli" means "I'm a bit scared of my horse so I wave things at it instead of actually having to ride it"
The Fuzzy Furry
Getting old disgracefully
Both shut down to handle, both spooky as heck to hack. Took a long while to open each up and build a trust with me before putting others on again. V glad to say both went on to be more relaxed happier safe hacking horses. Mixing with my lot went a long way to turning them around.
pansymouse
Well-Known Member
You've hit the nail on the head imo. I know a lot of people who do Parelli and none of them actually ride regularly; many not at all.
I view the whole Parelli thing as a cult and very clever marketing strategy designed to separate the gullible and scared from their hard earned. My number one hate about it is those godawful halters in mean thin rope with massive heavy bass clips which they thump against the horse's chin
I'm not much for branded training systems but I do find myself agreeing with Neil Davies on quite a few things - he's not a Parelli fan although never mentions the P word specifically when he unpicks their "techniques".
HappyHollyDays
Slave to 2 cats and 2 ponies
I know absolutely nothing about Parelli so excuse the numpty question but how do they manage to close horses down by waving sticks with plastic bags at their heads and what is it supposed to achieve?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
And once I've made it a nightmare to handle I will PTS as 'dangerous', was my experience, a clyde that I walked off the lorry as a 14 year old quiet as anything.
saalsk
Well-Known Member
Good question Lindylouanne. ( I still haven't mastered quotes )
I have no idea. Getting a horse used to everyday stuff is one thing - waving a large plastic bag on a stick next to it isn't something that happens everyday. My horses are used to rugs being thrown on them a bit *wildly* in case I have to rug them in windy weather. Very different to going up to them waving a bag on a stick. If they shut down, as many do, it is the same as riding school ponies going dead to the leg. Working with the horse to move it around in ways that we want, is one thing - some of the more extreme NH ways are not doing that.
P for Pony says it very well - "done well, with feel and sensitivity" and it works very well. Sadly, that isn't always something many have, and I include myself in that, although I try hard to be better.
I have no idea. Getting a horse used to everyday stuff is one thing - waving a large plastic bag on a stick next to it isn't something that happens everyday. My horses are used to rugs being thrown on them a bit *wildly* in case I have to rug them in windy weather. Very different to going up to them waving a bag on a stick. If they shut down, as many do, it is the same as riding school ponies going dead to the leg. Working with the horse to move it around in ways that we want, is one thing - some of the more extreme NH ways are not doing that.
P for Pony says it very well - "done well, with feel and sensitivity" and it works very well. Sadly, that isn't always something many have, and I include myself in that, although I try hard to be better.
Muddywellies
Well-Known Member
It's also very readily available to watch on the Internet so people watch 10 mins of a demo then think they can do it. The number of people I've seen chasing horses around and calling it 'join up'......
Cortez
Tough but Fair
It is no coincidence that Mr. Parelli's wife has a degree in marketing......I lived in Colorado in the 1980's and knew Pat Parelli slightly; he was known as a good starter of colts, nothing more. Then he got sort of picked up in Germany (I think) where there is a large Western riding cohort, met the lovely Linda, and the rest is history. Good marketing, overdone, and thinly disguised paint-by-numbers horse abuse for nervous people who know nothing.