Patrick Kittell..

[Jesstickle]

I can find this which alludes to some of the recent studies that have been carried out

http://vip.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/contentUpload/content_2872/SusanDwyer.pdf

I haven't looked up the individual studies as yet to confirm whether the criticisms of methodology etc are reliable.

As I suspected it has mixed reviews. I am also curious as to why all the main authors have decidedly Dutch sounding names so will be interested to see how impartial they are likely to be. If you catch my drift

 

[The mad TB]

There is only one point on that video where it jumps, the restbos not edited apart from slo-mo

I am astounded by the horse, shows just how much they do for us! if someone did that to Conn they would be on the floor in seconds :L

 

[_GG_]

No, this shouldn't only be directed at Kittel. He is just the rider in the picture that sparked this debate, so naturally his name is at the forefront.

I will be completely honest here, I won't get into an argument about the effects of Rollkur because I do not know enough about it and the studies that have been published are sparse and young. We do not yet have enough research to be able to formulate opinions on how it affects a horses long term physiology.

What I will do however is comment on how I believe it affects a horse in training.

I will also put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. So...take a look at my video at the bottom if you want. I am not the best rider, I don't know everything, but I will always form my own opinions based on what I know first hand...not what I hear or am led to believe.

I often have people ask how you get a horse to work on the bit without using draw reins or pulling its head in with your hands. The answer is, you establish a rhythm, balanced, get the horse supple and then encourage contact. A horse that is on the bit cannot be put there with the hand...if they are put there by hand, they will not be in self carriage, therefore, not truly on the bit. They are simply in a false frame.

In the video, I am working my mare who hurdled for 5 years and is at an early stage in retraining at the age of ten. She, as many ex racers do, gets tense in the neck and jaw, so relaxation is vital. You will see her come above the vertical, and all I do is half halt to get her attention back. No pulling, just blocking with the leg on.
You will also see her come behind the vertical as she stretches out, but you will see my hands allow this as I want her to stretch and relax.
Finally, in parts, you will see her come into self carriage, where she is poll high, maintaining rhythm and relaxed and because she is not fit enough or strong enough to hold self carriage for very long, when she wants to stretch, I allow her to stretch.

I am posting this to show that a horse behind the vertical does no always mean a horse that is being ridden with heavy hands. You will see when I am close to the camera that my fingers are barely even curled around the reins.

When I have ridden horses that are trained with heavy hands or excessive use of training aids, I find them sometimes unable to balance by themselves very well, preferring to lean on the hand. They can be very fragile in the contact and hypersensitive to the aids.


This is why I dislike Rollkur. Because I believe through experience that it hurts horses...real, physical pain in their mouths from the actions of the bit(s). Even a snaffle can hurt a horse with a nasty pair of hands.

And yes...my mare does have a flash on, you will notice that it is loose enough to allow her to chew the bit and open her mouth...she no longer needs it, but she did at this time as she would often sneeze and get her tongue over the bit.

So...arguments based on the long term physiological effects are still very premature at this stage of research...but the fact remains, it is not harmonious riding to forcibly pull your horses head in.

As said, I am just an ordinary rider striving to always be better...always learning and hopefully improving, but also willing to stand up and say force is wrong and not at all necessary.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDMUx9kJlU

 

[SusannaF]

Hmm seems someone is listening:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rian-fans-threaten-boycott-2012-Olympics.html

From January 2010. Hope they pick it up again...

Liz Jones is at the DM – I think that's the reason they pick up on so many horse cruelty stories.

 

[Booboos]

tallyho: my "google is not broke" but I think my ability to explain my self is broken. I would be grateful for references to scientific studies in peer reviewed journals, not random youtube videos, otherwise we might all confirm the existence of the tree octapus (google that study if you don't know it, it's very interesting).

Pookie: thanks for the maze study link, I have come accross that one. In my opinion it is a terribly poorly designed study, e.g. small sample, no double blind conditions, horses could easily and subconsciously been influenced by rider, result explicable by a desire to avoid work and not rollkur and so on.

jesstickle: thank you for the links but I am bit confused because they prove the opposite of the claims of this thread, i.e.
1. van Breda & van O-O: workload higher in rollkur, but stressloads not increased
2. van Breda: rollkur horses encountered LESS stress than recreational horses, so rollkur appears to be BETTER
3. van Weeren: head high position more harmful (don't see anyone calling for a ban on RCs, crappy recreational riders like yours truly, the thousands struggling with W&T tests like yours truly, etc.)
All the summary does is call for further studies to establish the facts which I have nothing against.

Which brings us to "if rollkur has the potential to be harmful err on the side of caution". This I completely disagree with. Since there is no evidence that it is harmful, merely claims that it might be, there is no justification for limiting people's freedom to do with their horses as they will. This is a welfare issue, but if no welfare concerns have been shown there are no grounds for action. Otherwise people who claim that the whole of riding has the same potential to be harmful would be equally entitled to prevent all of us riding on the exact same grounds.

We should be very wary of preventing other people from doing something simply because we don't like it. A restriction in liberty, in any sphere, should always be based on hard facts.

 

[skydy]

This should not be a thread directly aimed at Patrik Kittel, and should not become a witch hunt.
The whole of the Dutch team are at it, with Ankys husband / team trainer being at the centre if it all.
I think Rollkur is gross abuse, and the extended periods it is used are just dreadful.
If Valegros new home is true, then god help him as the new riders trainer is Anky..... I just pray he's established enough that they have to stick with the Charlotte/Carl methods - and you never know,'they might start applying it to their own (how I wish)

Valegro's new home will be..where?
I am sorry that he is being sold to outside interests. I had hoped you would be able to keep him in the UK.
I am hoping for your team to win (nothing against my team, just think yours is smashing and
very deserving). Best of luck!

About the rollkur issue, the problem I have with the photo of PK, is his bulging left bicept muscle. Looks like a lot of force there..

 

[touchstone]

An article that has excellent info on rollkur and why it is at best unnecessary here:- http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/index.php

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

 

[Stilldreamin']

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/...video/p00w305c

Adelinde Cornelissen makes her entrance at 4.16.39.

Horse is hyperflexed from get go.

 

[tallyho!]

No no, you're right millimoo, it should not be directed at PK solely but the title of the the thread and the OP was about the TIME of his test and we all wanted to see if there was a reaction. There were none... unsportsmanlike or whatever the excuse was

Then after that we decided to talk about rollkur in general, PK included.

However, the rollkur debate can be extended infinitely to include the people and the equipment.

draw reins, pessoa, crank noseband, flashes (yes! flashes!) and why stop there, FEI dressage rules about horses opening mouths - points are deducted which is why crank and flashes were originally invented.

You see the effect of this rippling through even local level comps where I see ponies jaws strapped together attached to straight, unyielding hands accompanied with evident "sponging/sawing" with the back disconnected and the hindquarters trailing off into the sunset. The more honest of the ponies get the points and rider gets awarded. Perfect.

There seems that everything natural about the beauty of horses is taken away by points collection system dictated by the FEI! The very body that outwardly wants to promote the welfare of horses yet gets rid of it's welfare team!!! LOL! Genius.

It has to come from the top as someone said earlier but putting pressure from the bottom isn't a bad idea overall.

A victory for horses is when AKG, PK & the Swedish Rollkur Mafia don't get a medal. Natural movements don't score points which leaves out a hell of a lot of people who refuse to conform to such cruel practice.

 

[Stilldreamin']

Some shots:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4335149866245.2176732.1512297978&type=3&l=fcb43e0706

 

[Jesstickle]

tallyho: my "google is not broke" but I think my ability to explain my self is broken. I would be grateful for references to scientific studies in peer reviewed journals, not random youtube videos, otherwise we might all confirm the existence of the tree octapus (google that study if you don't know it, it's very interesting).

Pookie: thanks for the maze study link, I have come accross that one. In my opinion it is a terribly poorly designed study, e.g. small sample, no double blind conditions, horses could easily and subconsciously been influenced by rider, result explicable by a desire to avoid work and not rollkur and so on.

jesstickle: thank you for the links but I am bit confused because they prove the opposite of the claims of this thread, i.e.
1. van Breda & van O-O: workload higher in rollkur, but stressloads not increased
2. van Breda: rollkur horses encountered LESS stress than recreational horses, so rollkur appears to be BETTER
3. van Weeren: head high position more harmful (don't see anyone calling for a ban on RCs, crappy recreational riders like yours truly, the thousands struggling with W&T tests like yours truly, etc.)
All the summary does is call for further studies to establish the facts which I have nothing against.

Which brings us to "if rollkur has the potential to be harmful err on the side of caution". This I completely disagree with. Since there is no evidence that it is harmful, merely claims that it might be, there is no justification for limiting people's freedom to do with their horses as they will. This is a welfare issue, but if no welfare concerns have been shown there are no grounds for action. Otherwise people who claim that the whole of riding has the same potential to be harmful would be equally entitled to prevent all of us riding on the exact same grounds.

We should be very wary of preventing other people from doing something simply because we don't like it. A restriction in liberty, in any sphere, should always be based on hard facts.

I assume you read the studies and recognise all the flaws with the methodology? I also assume you went and did further reading, did you read the study this http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/107.shtml talks about. It definitely exists as I had it open last night.

There clearly isn't enough evidence to decide in either direction at the present time. I personally would always rather plan for the worst case scenario but hey. If you think people's liberty to train their horse however the hell they want is more important than welfare go ahead.

I assume you thought people rapping their showjumpers was fine until there was scientific proof a welfare issue existed. And you're fine with the travelling community racing their three year olds up and down the road because there is no peer reviewed evidence they shouldn't? And that using a bearing rein so tight it stopped a horse breathing in Victorian times was ok because there was no scientific evidence to the contrary. I haven't seen much published literature on the use of weighted stacks in the TWH for big lick classes. Perhaps there isn't an issue there after all. Silly me for being concerned.

As GG has pointed out, perhaps rollkur isn't in itself detrimental but at what point did it become acceptable to be so rough, to see the horse as some kind of cash cow, to force it's head into any kind of position? If that is what equestrianism is becoming then I do think it should be banned. All of it.

 

[tallyho!]

Ugly indeed!

Ugly riding. Ugly riders. Ugly sport.

I am almost ashamed to say to people I do dressage. THAT there in those videos is not what I do.

 

[tallyho!]

Bravo jesstickle!!!!

 

[tallyho!]

I recently discovered horsemanpro... he made me laugh with his honest no-bull approach. I started to quite like his views...

http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/rollkur.htm

 

[Booboos]

I assume you read the studies and recognise all the flaws with the methodology? I also assume you went and did further reading, did you read the study this http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/107.shtml talks about. It definitely exists as I had it open last night.

There clearly isn't enough evidence to decide in either direction at the present time. I personally would always rather plan for the worst case scenario but hey. If you think people's liberty to train their horse however the hell they want is more important than welfare go ahead.

I assume you thought people rapping their showjumpers was fine until there was scientific proof a welfare issue existed. And you're fine with the travelling community racing their three year olds up and down the road because there is no peer reviewed evidence they shouldn't? And that using a bearing rein so tight it stopped a horse breathing in Victorian times was ok because there was no scientific evidence to the contrary. I haven't seen much published literature on the use of weighted stacks in the TWH for big lick classes. Perhaps there isn't an issue there after all. Silly me for being concerned.

As GG has pointed out, perhaps rollkur isn't in itself detrimental but at what point did it become acceptable to be so rough, to see the horse as some kind of cash cow, to force it's head into any kind of position? If that is what equestrianism is becoming then I do think it should be banned. All of it.

I am sorry but I am totally confused. Someone suggested there were studies showing rollkur was a welfare issue, I asked for a link, you happened to mention these studies so I assumed this was in response to my request. The studies show that rollkur is not a problem so they do not establish a welfare issue, hence my perplexion. Now I will completely agree with you that these studies were also methodologically flawed, but all that shows is that there is no evidence either way.

Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm. If we did this, all riding would be banned as there are people who object to it. This is not welfare vs liberty, this unsubstantiated claims and mild hysteria vs liberty.

Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.

OK so now rollkur is not detrimental to welfare. What is the next argument? That it is rough and views the horse as a cash cow? Horses are very much commodities for a lot of people, this needn't in any way be contrary to horse welfare as such. Vets, farriers, feed merchants, professional riders, dealers, clothes companies, and many, many others make money out of horses professionally as do many amateurs who may happen to sell a horse for a profit. Is it rough? Well, how long is a piece of string? Almost any training technique can be rough in the wrong hands. It's no more or less rough than other training techniques, e.g. see the photos of Dr H riding and tell me that doesn't look rough!

 

[Jesstickle]

I am sorry but I am totally confused. Someone suggested there were studies showing rollkur was a welfare issue, I asked for a link, you happened to mention these studies so I assumed this was in response to my request. The studies show that rollkur is not a problem so they do not establish a welfare issue, hence my perplexion. Now I will completely agree with you that these studies were also methodologically flawed, but all that shows is that there is no evidence either way.

Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm. If we did this, all riding would be banned as there are people who object to it. This is not welfare vs liberty, this unsubstantiated claims and mild hysteria vs liberty.

Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.

OK so now rollkur is not detrimental to welfare. What is the next argument? That it is rough and views the horse as a cash cow? Horses are very much commodities for a lot of people, this needn't in any way be contrary to horse welfare as such. Vets, farriers, feed merchants, professional riders, dealers, clothes companies, and many, many others make money out of horses professionally as do many amateurs who may happen to sell a horse for a profit. Is it rough? Well, how long is a piece of string? Almost any training technique can be rough in the wrong hands. It's no more or less rough than other training techniques, e.g. see the photos of Dr H riding and tell me that doesn't look rough!

I was just trying to be helpful really as clearly your google was broken (despite your assertions it wasn't) and you couldn't find them yourself. I said any literature was likely to be flawed, scarce and wouldn't be conclusive. That's exactly what it is. Have you read the study which does show it as a problem yet (also deeply flawed FWIW). I am, as previously mentioned, interested to see who funded the studies also. I'd be surprised that it is a coincidence that the two which find no problem are Dutch. Now that may be unfair of me and if I'm wrong I will, of course, apologise.

I happen to find those pictures really rather distressing. I wouldn't ever do it to my horse. I am allowed my own opinion as everyone else in the world is. The fact that, as yet, there is really no decent literature on it is a shame. Until there is all I can do is use my feeling and gut instinct to base my opinion on. If we all waited to act until such a time as there was a consensus opinion for everything I think the world would be a poorer place.

I am all for being scientific about things ( I am, I'm sure you remember, a scientist) but I stand by my statement that with something which is likely to be harmful or even something which has the possibility to be harmful, it would be better to err on the side of caution. Especially as it is unlikely there will ever be proper evidence as there is no funding for this and the studies, by their very nature, are hard to conduct.

I really don't like the use of 'scientific rigour' to allow abuse. In any walk of life, not just horses. Lots of things haven't been proved one way or another, that is no excuse to do something inhumane and then plead ignorance due to lack of evidence. I think that actually gives a bad name to science. I don't think there is much evidence that smacking your child soundly over the backside three times a day for no reason does lasting harm. But I wouldn't excuse someone from doing it on the grounds there is no scientific evidence as yet. I could make an absolutely huge list of examples along these lines.

Obviously you and I have fundamentally different opinions on civil liberty and we aren't going to reconcile them so I suggest we stop at this point.

 

[Booboos]

I was just trying to be helpful really as clearly your google was broken (despite your assertions it wasn't) and you couldn't find them yourself. I said any literature was likely to be flawed, scarce and wouldn't be conclusive. That's exactly what it is. Have you read the study which does show it as a problem yet (also deeply flawed FWIW). I am, as previously mentioned, interested to see who funded the studies also. I'd be surprised that it is a coincidence that the two which find no problem are Dutch. Now that may be unfair of me and if I'm wrong I will, of course, apologise.

I happen to find those pictures really rather distressing. I wouldn't ever do it to my horse. I am allowed my own opinion as everyone else in the world is. The fact that, as yet, there is really no decent literature on it is a shame. Until there is all I can do is use my feeling and gut instinct to base my opinion on. If we all waited to act until such a time as there was a consensus opinion for everything I think the world would be a poorer place.

I am all for being scientific about things ( I am, I'm sure you remember, a scientist) but I stand by my statement that with something which is likely to be harmful or even something which has the possibility to be harmful, it would be better to err on the side of caution. Especially as it is unlikely there will ever be proper evidence as there is no funding for this and the studies, by their very nature, are hard to conduct.

I really don't like the use of 'scientific rigour' to allow abuse. In any walk of life, not just horses. Lots of things haven't been proved one way or another, that is no excuse to do something inhumane and then plead ignorance due to lack of evidence. I think that actually gives a bad name to science. I don't think there is much evidence that smacking your child soundly over the backside three times a day for no reason does lasting harm. But I wouldn't excuse someone from doing it on the grounds there is no scientific evidence as yet. I could make an absolutely huge list of examples along these lines.

Obviously you and I have fundamentally different opinions on civil liberty and we aren't going to reconcile them so I suggest we stop at this point.

If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so. Both Google and Google Scholar, which is what I use when I need to back up my claims, work fine on my computer.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I never said you were not. You are entitled to believe that rollkur is wrong, although your belief does not make it so. You are still entitled to believe so, as much as Patrick Kittell is entitled to believe it's not wrong (his belief does not make it so either). What you are not entitled to is to force your opinion on others by stoping them from doing what they want. In order to justify forcing your opinions on others you need evidence that what they are doing is harmful.

If there is no evidence of abuse something cannot be simply labelled abuse. Some people find riding itself distressing and strongly feel that it is harmful to horses, but their mere feelings do not prove that it is indeed abusive.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange

 

[Marydoll]

If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so. Both Google and Google Scholar, which is what I use when I need to back up my claims, work fine on my computer.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I never said you were not. You are entitled to believe that rollkur is wrong, although your belief does not make it so. You are still entitled to believe so, as much as Patrick Kittell is entitled to believe it's not wrong (his belief does not make it so either). What you are not entitled to is to force your opinion on others by stoping them from doing what they want. In order to justify forcing your opinions on others you need evidence that what they are doing is harmful.

If there is no evidence of abuse something cannot be simply labelled abuse. Some people find riding itself distressing and strongly feel that it is harmful to horses, but their mere feelings do not prove that it is indeed abusive.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange

Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking, as for it being a welfare issue, when the oxygen is cut of to a horses tongue to the extent it is blue, that is a welfare issue, it causes pain and can cause damage if ongoing, i dont need any scientific article to tell me that, ive had the pain of pins and needles when circulation has been cut off, i know it can cause tissue damage, rollkur is wrong and it puts immense stress on the horse physically and mentally

 

[Fidgety]

Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking

Quite. The eyes say what scientific studies have yet to prove (or disprove). Those are not the eyes of happy horses who are comfortable. Any rider who is happy to ride a horse that is expressing himself through his eyes like that should not be allowed within a mile of a horse.

 

[Munchkin]

Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm.

But it is already banned under FEI rules. Whether you're stupid enough to ride your horse in extreme hyperflexion or not, these riders are breaking the rules and they are not being pulled up (excuse the pun) on it at an Olympic Games.

 

[Natch]

Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking, as for it being a welfare issue, when the oxygen is cut of to a horses tongue to the extent it is blue, that is a welfare issue, it causes pain and can cause damage if ongoing, i dont need any scientific article to tell me that, ive had the pain of pins and needles when circulation has been cut off, i know it can cause tissue damage, rollkur is wrong and it puts immense stress on the horse physically and mentally

Well said.

For me, what we know of biomechanics can be logically applied to see both the benefits and the drawbacks of rollkur. The drawbacks are unacceptable to me.

The straining of the horses' mouths trying to open against the bit is what I find most heartbreaking about the photos I see of Rollkur. many also have their mouths strapped shut.

I am sad that dressage, which should be about showcasing a beautiful harmonious partnership, is becoming anything but that.

 

[SusannaF]

Not to mention the fact that if you are hauling on your horse's mouth as standard, what happens when you actually need contact (ie if it takes off)?

 

[martlin]

Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.

Rapping is a banned practice, both in training and at competitions, a few names got caught out and punished, I don't think you need too many scientific studies to prove that smacking a horse with a hard object on the legs will hurt it.
Just thought I would point out.

 

[Natch]

Not to mention the fact that if you are hauling on your horse's mouth as standard, what happens when you actually need contact (ie if it takes off)?

It takes off in rollkur

 

[SusannaF]

It takes off in rollkur

Le voila! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q

 

[perfect11s]

.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange

I would !!! you are just digging a big hole for yourself Yes I know its fun to play devils advocate sometimes
but when the welfare of horses is involved its not big or clever to try and sow seeds of doubt , rolkur is abuse and even to a mong like me makes a horse look ****ing horrible and dejected.. the poll should be the highest point not the middle of its neck ...

 

[Booboos]

I would !!! you are just digging a big hole for yourself Yes I know its fun to play devils advocate sometimes
but when the welfare of horses is involved its not big or clever to try and sow seeds of doubt , rolkur is abuse and even to a mong like me makes a horse look ****ing horrible and dejected.. the poll should be the highest point not the middle of its neck ...

The passage you quoted was in direct response to jesstickle's request to end that particular line of discussion which I am happy to honour.

I am not playing devil's advocate nor do I need to big myself up. I am responding to a public thread on a public forum with a view which you don't agree with.

I find it difficult to get a grip on your position as most of it is spend disparaging me, but let me say something about the claim that the poll should be the highest point. I don't actually agree with this. In fact I think that if you kep the poll the highest point at all times, all training, all hacking and all other activities, you would risk injury to the horse. Horses need to work in a variety of outlines, for example when warming up long and low (with the poll quite low) is a very sensible idea for most horses.

At the same time I don't see all rollkur horses failing to have the poll as the highest point in competition (in advanced competition where this is appropriate). For example, Parcival and Painted Black did lovely tests in the Olympics while the Portuguese horse (which we have no reason to think has ever been rollkured) did not have the poll at the highest point for a lot of its test.

 

[Jesstickle]

If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so.

I didn't say there was though in fairness. For some reason me trying to be helpful and do a lit search for you has attracted your scorn. Shan't bother next time

I care far more on the grounds it is a direct contravention of the rules! FEI outlaw the use of force to achieve rollkur and that is what I see in those pictures. Meh.

I don't want a fight. I don't care enough to fall out over it!

 

[micramadam]

Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur).

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long ) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage.
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better!
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there.
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring.

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.

 

[Stilldreamin']

Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur).

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long ) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage.
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better!
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there.
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring.

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.

Very true and glad to hear this.