PETA trying to ban horseriding

[paddy555]

It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species

yes I'm not sure we would be missed! life would carry on pretty well without the damage we cause.

 

[ycbm]

we aren’t in a debate

Beggared if I know what else you think we're doing ?

 

[Miss_Millie]

I cannot see that the horse's instinct for survival comes in the form of cooperation with humans. He cooperates because largely he has little choice. If he does object then he is PTS. On here it is my horse exhibits poor behaviour that stops me riding him shall I PTS. On poorer cultures it is we can't afford to keep the horse if he can't work.

How do we improve conditions? in the rich UK we have insufficient land for the number of horses, yards are being built on, horses are flogging their way around surfaces that don't help their joints, plodding around riding schools with novices who can't get them to move, they are stabled far too long, many of their feet are poor which doesn't help their movement and skeleton, there are endless, tendons, suspensories etc being damaged, they are forced to engage in sports pushing them beyond their limits, forced to live in tiny single use paddocks, a fair number lack freedom and socialisation.

That is a fair amount to improve as many don't even see problems.
In 3rd world countries some of the equine owners are so poor they cannot afford to feed their family let alone the working donkey or horse
Of course some of the appeals for donations are heartbreaking but in reality some of the owners simply cannot afford care for their animals. I'm sure some are much loved but if there is no money their care is wanting.

This x 10. I think that the vast majority of horse owners don't even understand basic equine behaviour and what horses are trying to tell us through their body language. I truly believe that a huge proportion of people see their horses as 'owing them' because they're 'spoiled' by err....being over-rugged and having the latest saddle pad I do think that the majority of people who own horses in first world countries, do so because they enjoy riding above all else. This is why so many 20-something year olds are being sold with a description along the lines of 'He's my heart horse, it breaks my heart but he's a companion only and I don't have the time for him'

Anyhoo, judgemental rant over. I know that there are a lot of people who truly try to do right by their horses, even under less than perfect circumstances. But I also see the owner/rider's ego getting in the way of that a lot too.

 

[Wishfilly]

This x 10. I think that the vast majority of horse owners don't even understand basic equine behaviour and what horses are trying to tell us through their body language. I truly believe that a huge proportion of people see their horses as 'owing them' because they're 'spoiled' by err....being over-rugged and having the latest saddle pad I do think that the majority of people who own horses in first world countries, do so because they enjoy riding above all else. This is why so many 20-something year olds are being sold with a description along the lines of 'He's my heart horse, it breaks my heart but he's a companion only and I don't have the time for him'

Anyhoo, judgemental rant over. I know that there are a lot of people who truly try to do right by their horses, even under less than perfect circumstances. But I also see the owner/rider's ego getting in the way of that a lot too.

Or spoilt as in fed a lot of hard feed and treats, with an owner who isn't willing to make the hard choices when they end up overweight.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Beggared if I know what else you think we're doing ?

Lol

 

[Oreo&Amy]

It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species

That could be the case in that logic we abandon all conservation attempts and just watch the whole thing burn! Quite a nihilistic view, is there no hope for the world? I like to think so, maybe I’m too idealistic ?

 

[Oreo&Amy]

All the tourists. Really? And you believed them?

I’m paraphrasing- it was in 2009!! I doubt every second hand comment on here is quoted word for word. Anyway as I keep saying but not doing I’m out of this discussion (and yes I would say discussion not debate ie it’s not about a winner at the end!).

 

[Arzada]

I’m paraphrasing- it was in 2009!! I doubt every second hand comment on here is quoted word for word.

I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg 'all horse riders are complete plonkers' Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that 'all horse riders are plonkers'.

 

[sakura]

PETA have a point, and I suspect that is the way horse sports, and then horse riding, is going. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg 'all horse riders are complete plonkers' Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that 'all horse riders are plonkers'.

Eh? When did I say horse riders were plonkers?! I am a horserider!! Confused ?

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg 'all horse riders are complete plonkers' Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that 'all horse riders are plonkers'.

I think I may have lost track of this discussion to be fair ?

 

[sakura]

True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc

Did you just not word this well or do you genuinely believe that happiness and sadness mean "nothing" to animals?

 

[AntiPuck]

No specific opinions on PETA as an organisation, but I absolutely think they have a point. It's naïve not to understand that the vast majority of what humans do with/for animals is exploitation for our benefit, not for theirs.

The reason that the worst thing you can do for the planet/environment/other animals is to create more humans is because we are so incredibly destructive as a species.

I walk around day-to-day in a fug of cognitive dissonance on the subject just like everyone else, because I also need to mentally cope with existence, but let's not kid ourselves completely.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Did you just not word this well or do you genuinely believe that happiness and sadness mean "nothing" to animals?

I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do

 

[ycbm]

I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do

I feel that thinking is very out of date. Just because elephants and dolphins recognise in a mirror that they have a white dot painted on their forehead (which is how I've read that they test "id") does not mean that an animal who can't do that does not feel emotions like grief and anxiety like humans can. I'd argue very strongly that horses certainly do feel anxiety and almost certainly can feel grief. I would struggle to believe that my cats have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, too.
.

 

[paddy555]

I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do

why do you think they cannot experience grief. What about grief at the death of their fieldmate?

 

[BBP]

Horses deserve to live their lives as nature intended. We can connect with horses in our care and have a meaningful and mutually beneficial relationship with these sensitive animals without climbing on top of them.

What rot! And if a rule came into force 'banning horse riding' (not that it ever would) I wonder what would happen to all the horses unable to be ridden anymore?? Millions PTS I would imagine, not every horse owner is prepared to keep an animal that can't be ridden.

Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.

I see a lot of posts about being desperate to ride and not being happy if the horse isn’t rideable, and I do completely understand, you feel bereft for a while of something that was a huge part of your life. But my mindset now is totally different to that. I think there is so much joy to be had from having an unridden horse. I bought my youngster in the full knowledge (knowing the fragility of horses!) that I may never ride him, and being okay with that, because the relationship we have is so much more than the prospect of riding.

My random thought of the day - it’s a bit like thinking that sex is the most important part of a relationship. If one day your partner had an accident and was told they can’t have sex ever again, would you (not you as in Birker, I’m talking everyone) bin them off and look for a person that could? Or would you look at that relationship and all the incredible facets of it, the things you can do together that are joyful and happy and meaningful? Ok so maybe that’s a weird analogy, but I guess I mean I love my horses for who they are, not what they can do for me (edit, this may not be fully true as even unridden they still benefit me, would I still love them so much if they didn’t want to spend a single second in my presence, I don’t know)
I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.

I see a lot of posts about being desperate to ride and not being happy if the horse isn’t rideable, and I do completely understand, you feel bereft for a while of something that was a huge part of your life. But my mindset now is totally different to that. I think there is so much joy to be had from having an unridden horse. I bought my youngster in the full knowledge (knowing the fragility of horses!) that I may never ride him, and being okay with that, because the relationship we have is so much more than the prospect of riding.

My random thought of the day - it’s a bit like thinking that sex is the most important part of a relationship. If one day your partner had an accident and was told they can’t have sex ever again, would you (not you as in Birker, I’m talking everyone) bin them off and look for a person that could? Or would you look at that relationship and all the incredible facets of it, the things you can do together that are joyful and happy and meaningful? Ok so maybe that’s a weird analogy, but I guess I mean I love my horses for who they are, not what they can do for me (edit, this may not be fully true as even unridden they still benefit me, would I still love them so much if they didn’t want to spend a single second in my presence, I don’t know)
I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.

Yesss. My thoughts exactly. Great post.


I do find that a lot of people don't know how or don't have the interest in connecting to their horse in other ways. Some horses are certainly more oriented toward people, which makes things easier, but I've had great fun and learning with my horse from the ground. Sure I missed riding when I couldn't do it, but I got more creative in other ways. He's such a good little pet and he's a joy to have around, ridden or not. I view riding him as a great privilege, and not a right. If he were to become unrideable I still owe it to him to provide him with a nice and suitable life with me. As with many things, riding is a selfish endeavor.

 

[Birker2020]

Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.


I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.

Yes I've been there and bought the t-shirt with my past horse who I couldn't do anything decent with for the past four years of her life and with the one that I've sat on 15 times max since buying it last October, being a one horse owner it was incredibly sad but exciting at the same time having the chance to start all over again. I am perfectly aware that people sometimes have to have horses they can't ride. If you can keep a horse in retirement and be happy seeing all your friends going off and having fun then fair enough. I did it because my old horse who I'd had nearly two decades owed me nothing and I loved her and would have kept her forever in retirement if I could have but my new horse, well I don't feel the same way. Its been a huge disappointment, one that I can't put across in words, as words are not sufficient for how I am feeling.

And it would be ridiculous to think that people who have horses to compete (and in some cases do it for a livelihood) would be happy to keep all their horses in retirement for the rest of their lives. It just wouldn't happen with the vast majority.

I think you will find that come this winter the realisation will be that a lot of folks are going to have to sell their horses as they won't be able to afford to keep them with the rising cost of living and if a blanket ban came across that no one could ride a horse again then there would be thousands, millions that would be pts. That's the reality. But its all hyperthetical anyway as it would never happen.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: never mind. Not worth it. Walking away now.

 

[Birker2020]

Edit: never mind. Not worth it. Walking away now.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just giving my point of view.

 

[BBP]

Yes I've been there and bought the t-shirt with my past horse who I couldn't do anything decent with for the past four years of her life and with the one that I've sat on 15 times max since buying it last October, being a one horse owner it was incredibly sad but exciting at the same time having the chance to start all over again. I am perfectly aware that people sometimes have to have horses they can't ride. If you can keep a horse in retirement and be happy seeing all your friends going off and having fun then fair enough. I did it because my old horse who I'd had nearly two decades owed me nothing and I loved her and would have kept her forever in retirement if I could have but my new horse, well I don't feel the same way. Its been a huge disappointment, one that I can't put across in words, as words are not sufficient for how I am feeling.

And it would be ridiculous to think that people who have horses to compete (and in some cases do it for a livelihood) would be happy to keep all their horses in retirement for the rest of their lives. It just wouldn't happen with the vast majority.

I think you will find that come this winter the realisation will be that a lot of folks are going to have to sell their horses as they won't be able to afford to keep them with the rising cost of living and if a blanket ban came across that no one could ride a horse again then there would be thousands, millions that would be pts. That's the reality. But its all hyperthetical anyway as it would never happen.

I totally agree that cost of living may mean that people can’t afford to keep a horse. My point was that a horse doesn’t suddenly become unaffordable just because it becomes unrideable (well, barring the vets bills, which you and I are both sadly very familiar with!), the other costs don’t change. So that aspect is based on what the human values.

You say your old one owed you nothing, but for me my new one also owes me nothing. He’s 2 years old, he didn’t ask to be bred or bought, or transported across the sea to a place where everyone has a funny accent (imagine what bbp must sound like, Spanish x Welsh living in England ?), he didn’t ask for me to have set expectations of what he should be used for or good at. He’s just a horse. It’s me that owes him as I’m the one that bought him.

Im absolutely not saying that my outlook is right and yours is wrong, or that you are wrong to be disappointed with how things have worked out with your lovely boy. I do honestly get it because I have felt it before. But it’s sad that if people couldn’t compete that they would have their horse put to sleep and shows me that it’s not love of the horse as an individual that is at the root of much riding. I’ve changed a bit. I cried when my new one ruptured his tendon, but for me it was more about the prospect of losing him as a person rather than losing our ridden future together. I’m not holier than thou at all, I think I’ve just been through so much with bbp that my mindset has adapted.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I don’t think the bit you quoted was ethically incorrect but it lacks the balance of a real world situation and they would be better putting their energy towards trying to improve welfare than banning riding.

 

[sakura]

I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do

That's just not correct though. There are an increasing amount of animals who's emotional "intelligence" is far beyond what humans initially thought them capable of, including but not limited to; cetaceans, pigs, birds, elephants, octopus, dogs, primates, rodents etc etc etc the list truly goes on

Humans can only measure based on our own understanding of our own emotions. It's incredibly limited to think that if we haven't yet devised a way to measure something as complicated as emotion in our own species let alone for others, that they therefore do not feel or experience them in a way comparable or beyond our own.

What's that quote? "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

 

[milliepops]

agree with much of what you've said BBP. I also think you can agree with the statement that started this flurry of posts and also enjoy riding. Valuing the horse for the horse's sake is not incompatible with also wanting to ride. I like riding, i keep horses primarily to ride (despite my ratio of ridden v non ridden ones being totally out of whack!) but I also agree with the statement that they deserve a good natural type of life and that i can connect with them without riding. Just so happens that for about an hour or so 5 days a week i ride one of them as well.

I feel fortunate to be able to keep my non ridden ones and i get a huge amount of pleasure from them, i would say we have a great connection and they seem to seek out my company so that's good enough for me on that front.

Like you say, they don't owe me, i owe them.
If i just had one livery space and wasn't able to use our field i would feel conflicted about keeping any of the non ridden ones, *not* because i wouldn't want to keep the horse but it would have to be a pretty special livery to feel like i was ticking the boxes for them. I sort of see my livery spaces as a shortish term thing for the ridden period of my horses' lives, when they aren't working any more they don't need to be on a yard for the facilities so they also don't need to be bound by the human-imposed constraints of stabling etc. I've got one of my oldies on the yard at the moment keeping the loan horse company and i just know she would be happier back at the field, talk about guilt trips :/

 

[Birker2020]

I totally agree that cost of living may mean that people can’t afford to keep a horse. My point was that a horse doesn’t suddenly become unaffordable just because it becomes unrideable (well, barring the vets bills, which you and I are both sadly very familiar with!), the other costs don’t change. So that aspect is based on what the human values.

You say your old one owed you nothing, but for me my new one also owes me nothing. He’s 2 years old, he didn’t ask to be bred or bought, or transported across the sea to a place where everyone has a funny accent (imagine what bbp must sound like, Spanish x Welsh living in England ?), he didn’t ask for me to have set expectations of what he should be used for or good at. He’s just a horse. It’s me that owes him as I’m the one that bought him.

Im absolutely not saying that my outlook is right and yours is wrong, or that you are wrong to be disappointed with how things have worked out with your lovely boy. I do honestly get it because I have felt it before. But it’s sad that if people couldn’t compete that they would have their horse put to sleep and shows me that it’s not love of the horse as an individual that is at the root of much riding. I’ve changed a bit. I cried when my new one ruptured his tendon, but for me it was more about the prospect of losing him as a person rather than losing our ridden future together. I’m not holier than thou at all, I think I’ve just been through so much with bbp that my mindset has adapted.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I don’t think the bit you quoted was ethically incorrect but it lacks the balance of a real world situation and they would be better putting their energy towards trying to improve welfare than banning riding.

I get what you are saying about your two year old and I'm so sorry for your bad luck, hopefully he will come good in time.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I feel that thinking is very out of date. Just because elephants and dolphins recognise in a mirror that they have a white dot painted on their forehead (which is how I've read that they test "id") does not mean that an animal who can't do that does not feel emotions like grief and anxiety like humans can. I'd argue very strongly that horses certainly do feel anxiety and almost certainly can feel grief. I would struggle to believe that my cats have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, too.
.

They use mirrors. I studied marine mammal behaviour and worked as an MMO (marine mammal observer) for the JNCC. The research that this is the case is still being tested and still consistently found to be correct. Dolphins will even ‘commit suicide’ ie deliberately starve themselves of oxygen until they die. I have academic access to all current research and worked with Bruno Diaz in Sardinia. But this is a discussion in my view anyway, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions ! My motto is ‘I disagree with what you say, but I would die for your right to say it’

 

[Peglo]

I would very much argue horses don’t feel grief. After I had my TB put to sleep my haffie was ok until she was taken away to be buried and then for the first time in 18 years of owning her my haffie called for her best friend and was lost for a day or 2 without her. She’s always been very unsociable with horses but she felt that loss and it was heartbreaking to see.

 

[BBP]

I get what you are saying about your two year old and I'm so sorry for your bad luck, hopefully he will come good in time.

However my new horse came with issues which I have now treated (hopefully successfully) and because I've totally lost my confidence on him I am selling him on via sales livery as I do not want to spend the next 10-15 years looking after something I don't want to ride. I didn't sign up for this and it is bitterly disappointing as I love the horse so much and have formed a bond with him and he is such a character. But it is doing him no good in a situation which is intolerable for me. He is lucky in so much that he has been given another chance due to veterinary intervention, its just a shame that his didn't happen in his previous home but still. Believe me, if I had the money and my own land I would keep him forever, its breaking my heart to part with him.

I also know that whilst I cannot secure his future I know that he now has the best chance at a happy life with someone and I am lucky that his issues are not so bad that he cannot be sold. I was very reassured by my vet saying last week on his lameness reassessment that if he was going to vet this horse (had he not known him and as he saw him at that moment in time) he would have passed him.

With my previous horse I'd have kept Bailey for the next 10 years without riding her, had I been able to but alas her pain wasn't able to be relieved which is why she was pts. I expect I would have found myself in the same situation as I am now with my new horse finding it hard watching others have fun but at least I would have consoled myself with the fact I had had many years of fun previously with her whereas with present horse I've had nothing.

You sound like a lovely person who is always trying to do the right thing so I hope you didn’t take anything I wrote as a criticism of you.

 

[sakura]

They use mirrors. I studied marine mammal behaviour and worked as an MMO (marine mammal observer) for the JNCC. The research that this is the case is still being tested and still consistently found to be correct. Dolphins will even ‘commit suicide’ ie deliberately starve themselves of oxygen until they die. I have academic access to all current research and worked with Bruno Diaz in Sardinia. But this is a discussion in my view anyway, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions ! My motto is ‘I disagree with what you say, but I would die for your right to say it’

Captive orcas are also known to self harm to the point of death, I don't think anyone is disputing that cetaceans across the board are all highly emotional. We're saying that other animals are too, and the absence of measured, peer reviewed papers does not dispute that as a fact. I'm not entirely sure if your argument is that if a being cannot recognise themselves as "themselves", they therefore cannot experience broad and intense personal emotion?

I'm sure many of us have academic and professional experience with a range of animals and we all bring our knowledge to the discussion. Mine lies primarily with non-human primates, and I can assure you that even those species who have not been found to recognise "self" consistently feel emotions.

 

[Birker2020]

You sound like a lovely person who is always trying to do the right thing so I hope you didn’t take anything I wrote as a criticism of you.

Thank you for saying that, that's lovely of you to say.

No I didn't think you were criticising me for one minute, we all have different opinions and there's no right or no wrong way of thinking. x