PETA trying to ban horseriding

[paddy555]

what I'm saying is that businesses like racehorse trainers, show jumping yards, riding schools (the type of establishments where there are lots of horses grouped together) are not going to keep horses if they cannot earn a living out of them. Simple as that. Why would they? Horses cost a fortune, if you run a business and it doesn't make a profit it finishes.

no they will not keep going. Question is though that some horse riding, competing and training is not beneficial to the horses. For the most part he plods along and does as he is told, like it or not so humans can earn their living or get their pleasure and excitement. .

Should we keep a business going because a human wants to make a profit whereas the other business partner ie the horse may not have a very good lifestyle.?

 

[shortstuff99]

I think as long as racing still happens the rest will (as you can't exactly ban riding or horse sports but allow racing).

Seeing the crowds recently at racing meets and the money in it I can't see it being banned anytime soon.

I also feel it would be hard to ban horse riding while still having intensive animal farming and eating meat.

 

[paddy555]

. One quote is ‘If we look honestly at our relationship with horses, we must acknowledge that the decision to take part in horseback riding is made solely by one individual with little benefit to and no input from the other’. Unbelievable.


?

far from unbelievable I think it is a pretty true statement. Whether horse riders like it may be a different question

Just shows how they have no understanding of how good horse owners have a unique bond with their horses and how much their horses love their ‘work’.

I find this bizarre and not just because I’m a rider who spoils her horse rotten and knows him well enough to know he is happy. Thoughts??

horse owners do feel they have a unique bond. You have paid for him, spend all your time lavishing expensive time and care on him and you are in love with him. Of course you feel bonded.

Does he love his work? there are endless posts on here my horse won't, leave the yard, jump, lead, school or whatever. He bucks, runs, rears, bites, kicks and everything else. We did an event at the week end and he is sore, still, lame, vet is coming out to look at a tendon, physio is coming to see why he is sore. Vet has now just been and he is on box rest for 3 months to deal with his injuries and he is already upset in his box. After 3 months box rest I have to start handwalking for 10 minutes, how do I control him.

Do those sound like happy horses loving their work. How many horses simply don't do most of those things because they are too subservient or have been made to behave? It that happiness or simply no choice.

Does your horse want to be spoilt rotten? how can anyone really know if their horse is happy?

I've had horses for around 50 years and with each passing year I wonder more and more if a lot of what we are doing is really acceptable. I used to think my horses were happy and they have had a lot more than many horses, freedom, a relatively easy and safe worklife etc but realistically I can look back over around 25 horses and say that without any doubt only 2 of them were bonded with me, their choice, they adored me.

The rest, the very vast majority, realistically had a much better life than in some places but probably little more than that in terms of their happiness.

I'm sure it won't be banned, too much money in some sports but a fair amount of truth in Peta's statement above.

 

[humblepie]

We think horse riding and think competing or leisure. Horses are still used for work or transport be that ridden or driving in parts of the world. I have just googled horse use in Mongolia for example. I haven’t read the PETA statement so not sure how far it goes but are they differentiating?

 

[Lacuna]

I don't have much truck with PETA ever since I heard how many animals they euthanise every year at their 'rescue' centres. Their ideal world view contains no animals bred for food (which I can somewhat understand from an ethical point of view) but also no companion animals - to me that would be quite a lonely, sterile world with no dogs/cats etc to share it with

 

[Oreo&Amy]

far from unbelievable I think it is a pretty true statement. Whether horse riders like it may be a different question




horse owners do feel they have a unique bond. You have paid for him, spend all your time lavishing expensive time and care on him and you are in love with him. Of course you feel bonded.

Does he love his work? there are endless posts on here my horse won't, leave the yard, jump, lead, school or whatever. He bucks, runs, rears, bites, kicks and everything else. We did an event at the week end and he is sore, still, lame, vet is coming out to look at a tendon, physio is coming to see why he is sore. Vet has now just been and he is on box rest for 3 months to deal with his injuries and he is already upset in his box. After 3 months box rest I have to start handwalking for 10 minutes, how do I control him.

Do those sound like happy horses loving their work. How many horses simply don't do most of those things because they are too subservient or have been made to behave? It that happiness or simply no choice.

Does your horse want to be spoilt rotten? how can anyone really know if their horse is happy?

I've had horses for around 50 years and with each passing year I wonder more and more if a lot of what we are doing is really acceptable. I used to think my horses were happy and they have had a lot more than many horses, freedom, a relatively easy and safe worklife etc but realistically I can look back over around 25 horses and say that without any doubt only 2 of them were bonded with me, their choice, they adored me.

The rest, the very vast majority, realistically had a much better life than in some places but probably little more than that in terms of their happiness.

I'm sure it won't be banned, too much money in some sports but a fair amount of truth in Peta's statement above.

But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing. That’s what I find almost most biazarre….plus they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do, but they can certainly be given a lovely life including exercise that given some of the horses I’ve seen being ridden I find impossible to believe they are in discomfort or pain. They could simply dump the rider and leg it!! X

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Did you...did you seriously just imply that humans are better at managing the planet than literal nature is?!

We're nothing but a tiny little smear on the grand scheme of evolution, darling. We don't matter a whit. The planet was here long before us, and it will endure long after we're gone. The best we can hope for is that we don't render it incompatible with biological life as we know it in the interim. And even if we do, it's a living planet. It will go on. Eventually, new species will rise from the ashes of our incompetence and inherit everything. Because that is what nature does.

I totally agree; it was simply a metaphor to illustrate the point x

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I don't have much truck with PETA ever since I heard how many animals they euthanise every year at their 'rescue' centres. Their ideal world view contains no animals bred for food (which I can somewhat understand from an ethical point of view) but also no companion animals - to me that would be quite a lonely, sterile world with no dogs/cats etc to share it with

Quite….

 

[Smoky 2022]

I think horse riding will be banned not anytime soon but in next 100 years people will stop riding horses . I think because the lack of interest in future generation and of future technology and the lack of land will stop the equestrian sport so people will have no problem banning it . I don’t agree with PETA but the amount of scandals isn’t helping the sport.

 

[SibeliusMB]

But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing. That’s what I find almost most biazarre….plus they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do, but they can certainly be given a lovely life including exercise that given some of the horses I’ve seen being ridden I find impossible to believe they are in discomfort or pain. They could simply dump the rider and leg it!! X

Since you've made multiple posts now about PeTA let me please emphasize for you: they absolutely do want to ban all horse riding.

All human uses of animals, period, in fact.

They're just smart enough to know they can't demand that right now in today's environment. What they can do, though, is target certain activities that seem like softer targets that have more public controversy surrounding them: racing, carriage horses, and now eventing.

Animal rights activists can publicly campaign against such activities and use previous accidents and public perception against them. This further turns the public perception to a negative one. Animal rights groups are savvy with social media. Social media itself is a huge weapon and is already being used to perpetuate a negative image or incorrect assumptions about horse sports in general. I saw lots of comments regarding the dressage at the Tokyo Olympics and ignorant Facebook users saying how dressage is so cruel because "they're trained with chains and electric cattle prods". ?‍?

So yes...animal rights groups would LOVE to ultimately ban all horse sports snd uses of horses, but have to systematically attack the controversial ones first. It's the slippery slope theory, and why we equestrians must hold one another accountable and be the best advocates for our horses by calling out other equestrians who are doing things wrong.


Also, I think you ought to consider giving horses' emotional intelligence a little more credit. People shouldn't anthromorohise, yes, but more enlightening information is coming out regarding horses' social norms, their capacity to recognize emotions in humans, and their enormous capacity to sense what is happening with those around them. I think we humans are only just starting to realize what horses do or do not feel.
All the more reason to know better and do better by them.

Given the current social media environment, any horse person who is unwilling to reconsider what they do and do not know about horses and is unwilling to potentially evolve their training methods in coming years really ought to just buy a bicycle.

 

[minesadouble]

I've kept and retired quite a few horses now, both my own and children's ponies. What I can say, from my own observations, is that they are happier when they have a job.
I'm not saying retired horses are unhappy as such, but I am definitely of the opinion that when they are in regular work they seem to have an overall happier demeanor.

 

[HashRouge]

But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing.

But the title of the thread that you started is literally "PETA trying to ban horse riding".

Personally, I'm more aerated about the many, many people who mistreat horses, whether knowingly or otherwise, than I am about PETA, who are at least interested in promoting animal welfare.

 

[teapot]

I think as long as racing still happens the rest will (as you can't exactly ban riding or horse sports but allow racing).

Seeing the crowds recently at racing meets and the money in it I can't see it being banned anytime soon.

I also feel it would be hard to ban horse riding while still having intensive animal farming and eating meat.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/wer...-coral-eclipse-day-sees-attendance-low/565988 - would be interested to know if other courses are experiencing the same thing, and why.

 

[ycbm]

they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do,

They don't express it the same way, but we don't yet know what emotions they really feel. Until recently, it was believed that goldfish had a memory of 5 seconds. Now, it is proven that goldfish can be trained to navigate a water tank through an obstacle course. There are depths to animal emotion and cognitive ability that we don't yet understand.
.

 

[SO1]

I think a lot about quality of life for horses. Most of a myriad of problems people have with them are man made.

Look at ulcers and laminitis for example both of which can be caused by inappropriate feeding. Ulcers also caused by stress.

How many horses have the five freedoms? What level of discomfort is acceptable.

We say we love our horses but is riding them kind is the way we keep them kind.

I have been thinking about my pony and his quality of life recently as he has had to go on a special diet after a gastric impaction. He also has a glandular ulcer was I responsible for that by the choices I made when he had no turnout for nearly 9 months due to rehabing a tendon injury.

Are we kidding ourselves by saying we love our horses when what we actually love is riding. Most people buy a horse to ride not because they love horses as pets.

I can see why Peta may think riding and keeping horses may not be kind to them. What % of the equine population live stress free lives which would I presume be living out in stable herds on suitable pasture and not being forced to do anything they don't want to do.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Quite….

They don't express it the same way, but we don't yet know what emotions they really feel. Until recently, it was believed that goldfish had a memory of 5 seconds. Now, it is proven that goldfish can be trained to navigate a water tank through an obstacle course. There are depths to animal emotion and cognitive ability that we don't yet under

 

[Oreo&Amy]

True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Since you've made multiple posts now about PeTA let me please emphasize for you: they absolutely do want to ban all horse riding.

All human uses of animals, period, in fact.

They're just smart enough to know they can't demand that right now in today's environment. What they can do, though, is target certain activities that seem like softer targets that have more public controversy surrounding them: racing, carriage horses, and now eventing.

Animal rights activists can publicly campaign against such activities and use previous accidents and public perception against them. This further turns the public perception to a negative one. Animal rights groups are savvy with social media. Social media itself is a huge weapon and is already being used to perpetuate a negative image or incorrect assumptions about horse sports in general. I saw lots of comments regarding the dressage at the Tokyo Olympics and ignorant Facebook users saying how dressage is so cruel because "they're trained with chains and electric cattle prods". ?‍?

So yes...animal rights groups would LOVE to ultimately ban all horse sports snd uses of horses, but have to systematically attack the controversial ones first. It's the slippery slope theory, and why we equestrians must hold one another accountable and be the best advocates for our horses by calling out other equestrians who are doing things wrong.


Also, I think you ought to consider giving horses' emotional intelligence a little more credit. People shouldn't anthromorohise, yes, but more enlightening information is coming out regarding horses' social norms, their capacity to recognize emotions in humans, and their enormous capacity to sense what is happening with those around them. I think we humans are only just starting to realize what horses do or do not feel.
All the more reason to know better and do better by them.

Given the current social media environment, any horse person who is unwilling to reconsider what they do and do not know about horses and is unwilling to potentially evolve their training methods in coming years really ought to just buy a bicycle.

I agree re PETA and I really don’t underestimate animalian emotional intelligence; in fact I studied it in my third year of uni! But your point re PETA and social media is a very good point. Anyway that’s me done on the subject I can take a hint ???

 

[ycbm]

True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc

The words mean nothing to animals. The emotions are created by chemical changes in the brain and animals have the same chemicals sloshing around as humans do. The fact that they don't express their emotions as obviously as humans do doesn't mean they don't feel them.

Did you know that behavioural difficulties in horses (and cats and dogs) are now being treated with SSRI antidepressants developed for humans?
.

 

[sbloom]

I love the shift I see on here. Doing the Gillian Higgins course for saddle fitters over 4 years ago made me realise we are highly unlikely to still be riding in 100 years time. My professional outlook is that we need to make our ridden horses lives a LOT better and I try and live my entire professional life that way but it's not easy trying to communicate this to some customers that are still stuck with old fashioned ways of seeing horses as our tools. Most are on some kind of more progressive journey thank goodness.. I do not know whether I'll ever have a horse again.

 

[tristar]

its a change needed to view what we do and how we do it, including mainly how we communicate to horses what it is we are asking, and how we perceive what they feel and how working them is to their benefit as well as our own


basically, huge improvements in training, less set in stone exploratory ways of achieving a balanced, happy to work horse who can stay sound and reach their full potential, well not even potential, to find things in horses that are not obvious at the start, or even create qualities that make riding pleasurable

 

[paddy555]

True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc

yet in your opening post you knew him well enough to know he is happy yet happiness is a human concept meaning nothing to animals. So how can he be happy.

Anxiety is by far from being a human concept. Clearly from their problems there are a lot of anxious dogs and horses referred to on this forum.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

The words mean nothing to animals. The emotions are created by chemical changes in the brain and animals have the same chemicals sloshing around as humans do. The fact that they don't express their emotions as obviously as humans do doesn't mean they don't feel them.

Did you know that behavioural difficulties in horses (and cats and dogs) are now being treated with SSRI antidepressants developed for humans?
.

I mean the way as as humans se

yet in your opening post you knew him well enough to know he is happy yet happiness is a human concept meaning nothing to animals. So how can he be happy.

Anxiety is by far from being a human concept. Clearly from their problems there are a lot of anxious dogs and horses referred to on this forum.

I just mean the parameters of the emotions are decided by us,and given names, whereas in reality they are a fluid spectrum- an animal could be content but nudging towards anxiety, excited but moving towards calm etc and always bearing in mind that we have created these names to make sense of the range of behaviours all mammals exhibit…I’m probably not explaining very well, it’s been years since I studied animal behaviour ??

 

[Wishfilly]

I do think we are on a progressive journey with horses, and I hope people are able to find ways to keep horses that are increasingly ethical.

Unfortunately, with the cost of living crisis, in the UK at least, I'm not sure that trend will continue. I actually think the way things are going, in 100 years, we might see horses used more for "work" than they are now.

I do think there are lots of ethical questions to be asked about how we interact with horses, for sure. But I think horse riding will only end up banned, or a thing of the past if we no long have viable land to keep horses, so most of the population no longer has access to them at all.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

How would that matter for horses? If it meant I could get the terrible images of how horses and donkeys are abused in working environments in the third world, systematic abuse of TWH horses in the US, long distance racers legs snapping in the desert, out of my mind, I'd happily never see a horse again.
.

But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist? Every species has an instinct for survival and in the case of horses that instinct comes in the form of cooperation with humans. Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy- they were viewed as so important and a much loved member of the family. It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all these donkeys and mules are suffering. She also added that most horses in the west are actually obese. I believe those adverts are in some ways another example of patronising different cultures we know little about, and assuming all the animals they have must be victims. Those adverts are very manipulative by adding sad music, picking a donkey that is sickly (usually one which the owner has brought for care at the free Red Cross vets) and the narrative of the advert is designed to create guilt and paint a one sided picture to make money. I’m suspicious of those big charities, such a huge portion of their profits goes on marketing, advertising and PR. Anyway I think I’ll leave this convo for now. Have a great day

 

[ycbm]

But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist?

I didn't say that!

It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all .... donkeys and mules are suffering.

or that!


My response was only in response to you saying that it would be a bad thing if no horses existed. I replied that I didn't see how that would matter to the horses, only the humans who want them around. Dodos don't sit crying that they are extinct and not available to be shot any more.
.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I didn't say that!



or that!


My response was only in response to you saying that it would be a bad thing if no horses existed. I replied that I didn't see how that would matter to the horses, only the humans who want them around. Dodos don't sit crying that they are extinct and not available to be shot any more.
.

But that would imply taking vital components out of ecosystems and would result in a trophic cascade; eg a case where due to a small change in sea temp meant a massive increase in algae in the sea. It blocked light and therefore fish died or stopped coming. It finished with Killer Whales being extinct from the area. I mean the animal may not be conscious it’s gone extinct but if we follow that logic, we accept all species die out including ourselves. Allowing species to die out because they ‘won’t mind’ is a bit absurd. It means all conservation is redundant. I wasn’t saying you said those things, we aren’t in a debate (I hope!) they were just observations I think I’m done with the PETA discussion so that’s me out!!

 

[Arzada]

Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy

All the tourists. Really? And you believed them?

 

[Arzada]

... we accept all species die out including ourselves.

It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species

 

[paddy555]

But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist? Every species has an instinct for survival and in the case of horses that instinct comes in the form of cooperation with humans. Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy- they were viewed as so important and a much loved member of the family. It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all these donkeys and mules are suffering. She also added that most horses in the west are actually obese. I believe those adverts are in some ways another example of patronising different cultures we know little about, and assuming all the animals they have must be victims. Those adverts are very manipulative by adding sad music, picking a donkey that is sickly (usually one which the owner has brought for care at the free Red Cross vets) and the narrative of the advert is designed to create guilt and paint a one sided picture to make money. I’m suspicious of those big charities, such a huge portion of their profits goes on marketing, advertising and PR. Anyway I think I’ll leave this convo for now. Have a great day

I cannot see that the horse's instinct for survival comes in the form of cooperation with humans. He cooperates because largely he has little choice. If he does object then he is PTS. On here it is my horse exhibits poor behaviour that stops me riding him shall I PTS. On poorer cultures it is we can't afford to keep the horse if he can't work.

How do we improve conditions? in the rich UK we have insufficient land for the number of horses, yards are being built on, horses are flogging their way around surfaces that don't help their joints, plodding around riding schools with novices who can't get them to move, they are stabled far too long, many of their feet are poor which doesn't help their movement and skeleton, there are endless, tendons, suspensories etc being damaged, they are forced to engage in sports pushing them beyond their limits, forced to live in tiny single use paddocks, a fair number lack freedom and socialisation.
That is a fair amount to improve as many don't even see problems.
In 3rd world countries some of the equine owners are so poor they cannot afford to feed their family let alone the working donkey or horse
Of course some of the appeals for donations are heartbreaking but in reality some of the owners simply cannot afford care for their animals. I'm sure some are much loved but if there is no money their care is wanting.