Dressage Piaffe...

[HufflyPuffly]

So whilst I count the hours down until I can collect the keys to my new house, I thought I'd ask you lot on something that I'm confused by.

*Warning potential stupid question(s) coming up*

Why and where, does the modern piaffe shown in most international shows come from?

From my basic uneducated eye, a lot seem to bounce behind but with little weight being taken through the hind-end, so no real collection/ engagement? Then there are ones that bring the hind legs seemingly too far underneath but get penalised for becoming too base short, (like they are balancing on a ball with all legs together), why is this considered wrong in comparison? I thought piaffe was the ultimate (well not ultimate, but ultimate for competitive dressage) collection in the trot, so should the hind legs not come under to carry more weight?

I know how difficult it is as a movement, so I am aware that it could just be that for those horses it is the best piaffe they are capable of showing, but it almost looks like that's how people are training it (the bouncing behind piaffe) and it scores well generally? Is it that modern dressage horses are so expressive that it is also coming out in the piaffe with higher more 'expressive' steps?

Topaz is at the super duper exciting stage of piaffe training, we've done half steps and building it up and are now working on actual piaffe (I feel so unqualified to be doing this but hey that's what an amazing instructor can do for you ). We're currently trying to balance the energy onto on the spot(ish), and when it all comes together she feels like she really sits behind (it feels incredible and instructor says it looks great) and I'm just pondering how the top guys seem to get this very energetic behind piaffe and if that is the next stage from getting an established on the spot piaffe?

We will never be a competitive combination at GP lol, so this is all idle musings to pass the time, so over to you guys, modern piaffe what do you think?

 

[Mule]

Perhaps it takes a lot of time for the horse to gain the strength to lower itself to the degree that the textbook piaffe requires.
Mabey the horses build also comes in to it. The types with seriously strong hindquarters and more compact bodies surely find collection easier. A lower centre of gravity makes for better balance. This is just speculation but I wonder do very tall animals find it harder. Dressage bred horses tend to be huge.

Mabey bouncy piaffes score high enough that riders don't take the time to train a horse to really sit.
I'd imagine the riders are just doing what gets the best marks.

Even controversial training methods become popular when riders who use them get very high marks.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Perhaps it takes a lot of time for the horse to gain the strength to lower itself to the degree that the textbook piaffe requires.
Mabey the horses build also comes in to it. The types with seriously strong hindquarters and more compact bodies surely find collection easier. A lower centre of gravity makes for better balance. This is just speculation but I wonder do very tall animals find it harder. Dressage bred horses tend to be huge.

Mabey bouncy piaffes score high enough that riders don't take the time to train a horse to really sit.
I'd imagine the riders are just doing what gets the best marks.

Interesting thought on size, Topaz is a wee 15.2hh of compact cart horse and she has always shown a natural inclination towards a sitting, powerful piaffe rather than a bouncy one?

Seems a shame if they do think well that's 'good enough' but completely understandable, I might pay more attention to the build of the horse and what sort of piaffe they do next time I'm watching .

 

[Mule]

Interesting thought on size, Topaz is a wee 15.2hh of compact cart horse and she has always shown a natural inclination towards a sitting, powerful piaffe rather than a bouncy one?

Seems a shame if they do think well that's 'good enough' but completely understandable, I might pay more attention to the build of the horse and what sort of piaffe they do next time I'm watching .

Yah, it's just an idea but I'm going to look out for it too. It would be interesting to see if there's a correlation.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Yah, it's just an idea but I'm going to look out for it too. It would be interesting to see if there's a correlation.

Definitely, if you think of the Spanish horses they tend to do a more 'classical' piaffe (ie sitting), and also tend to be smaller and more compact, as was Valegro. I wonder if the taller, leggier horses actually cannnot do a more sitting piaffe, or whether it just would take them a lot longer?

 

[Mule]

Definitely, if you think of the Spanish horses they tend to do a more 'classical' piaffe (ie sitting), and also tend to be smaller and more compact, as was Valegro. I wonder if the taller, leggier horses actually cannnot do a more sitting piaffe, or whether it just would take them a lot longer?

The Spanish horses really do look textbook. It would be interesting to find out whether the leggy ones are or aren't physically able to sit. I'd love to find out. Unfortunately I don't think I'm competent enough to try an experiment

 

[HufflyPuffly]

The Spanish horses really do look textbook. It would be interesting to find out whether the leggy ones are or aren't physically able to sit. I'd love to find out. Unfortunately I don't think I'm competent enough to try an experiment

I don’t have the required x amount to buy a modern leggy one either 😂🙈.

 

[Mule]

I don’t have the required x amount to buy a modern leggy one either 😂🙈.

Mabey someone would oblige us. In the name of 'science'

 

[ycbm]

I suspect that the leggy ones hocks would give up if they were taught a proper sitting piaffe.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Mabey someone would oblige us. In the name of 'science'

Yeah maybe I should but it on the BD Facebook page or forum and see if someone will help 😂.

I suspect that the leggy ones hocks would give up if they were taught a proper sitting piaffe.

Lol maybe this is the reason, but a fair bit of the marks do come from the piaffe + transitions, so why would this be so overlooked when deciding what to buy and train? If indeed they cannot do it?

You can train a horse to do an impressive extension, but if piaffe is so conformationally driven you’d think it would sway people more?

 

[Mule]

I suspect that the leggy ones hocks would give up if they were taught a proper sitting piaffe.

Ah, there we go. If people tried it and ended up with broken horses. It's no wonder they wouldn't risk it.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Ah, there we go. If people tried it and ended up with broken horses. It's no wonder they wouldn't risk it.

True but then why not train a horse with the qualities that mean it 'can' do the work asked...

 

[Cortez]

It's not to do with size, or long legs (or not very much to do with these), it's to do with the way horses move, articulation and bio mechanics. It is also to do with neck placement and back length - lots of stuff. Quite simply if a horse is bred to emphasize extension (WB's), it is very difficult to ask him to then shorten. Likewise is a horse is bred for collection and roundness in its' movement (PRE's, and Friesians, etc.), these then have difficulties in lengthening.

 

[ycbm]

AH I agree with you, the scoring drives me mad! It's all very well not being able to do some moves as well as others, but why is the individual mark for a blatantly incorrect piaffe often so high?

In the 2012 Olympics I watched Parzival walk in front and bounce behind as if he had an upwards hinge just behind his wither. He scored nines, I think, and the commentator (Judy ???) said how good it was. I was yelling at the telly 'no it's not!'.

 

[Cortez]

True but then why not train a horse with the qualities that mean it 'can' do the work asked...

Precisely!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

It's not to do with size, or long legs (or not very much to do with these), it's to do with the way horses move, articulation and bio mechanics. It is also to do with neck placement and back length - lots of stuff. Quite simply if a horse is bred to emphasize extension (WB's), it is very difficult to ask him to then shorten. Likewise is a horse is bred for collection and roundness in its' movement (PRE's, and Friesians, etc.), these then have difficulties in lengthening.

Ooh interesting thank you , to be annoying though, as I've found with Topaz, yes it is more difficult to train a fancy extension to those with a round action, but equally not impossible, so why would more not go that way that asking a horse that physically cannot sit?

AH I agree with you, the scoring drives me mad! It's all very well not being able to do some moves as well as others, but why is the individual mark for a blatantly incorrect piaffe often so high?

In the 2012 Olympics I watched Parzival walk in front and bounce behind as if he had an upwards hinge just behind his wither. He scored nines, I think, and the commentator (Judy ???) said how good it was. I was turning at the telly 'no it's not!'.

I always feel like I've missed something or I'm not knowledgeable enough to know why some marks are given, especially like you say when the commentator is also in agreement.

 

[Mule]

It's not to do with size, or long legs (or not very much to do with these), it's to do with the way horses move, articulation and bio mechanics. It is also to do with neck placement and back length - lots of stuff. Quite simply if a horse is bred to emphasize extension (WB's), it is very difficult to ask him to then shorten. Likewise is a horse is bred for collection and roundness in its' movement (PRE's, and Friesians, etc.), these then have difficulties in lengthening.

So something that would be equally good at both shortening and lengthening won't be spectacular at either.

 

[Cortez]

So something that would be equally good at both shortening and lengthening won't be spectacular at either.

Not necessarily.....*whispers: Totilas......

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Not necessarily.....*whispers: Totilas......

You can't mention him in a positive way Cortez .

What would you take from him conformationally, that meant he could extend and collect so well?

 

[Cortez]

Ooh interesting thank you , to be annoying though, as I've found with Topaz, yes it is more difficult to train a fancy extension to those with a round action, but equally not impossible, so why would more not go that way that asking a horse that physically cannot sit?

I really don't know.....Probably because everybody is now so used to riding modern WB's, and in order to ride PRE's and the like they would have to radically adjust the way they ride and train (as I have done). But mostly I suspect because the judges are now also inured to looking at WB's and their (wrong!) way of performing the movements, and reward the new norm over the "old" way more highly.

 

[Mule]

Not necessarily.....*whispers: Totilas......

I know there was a lot of controversy with totilas but I hadn't got back in to horses then so I wasn't following it. Was the controversy about rolkur training rather than the horse itself? Was there consensus on totilas's talent?

 

[Cortez]

You can't mention him in a positive way Cortez .

What would you take from him conformationally, that meant he could extend and collect so well?

Firstly let me say that I don't "love" Totilas, and have as many conflicts and concerns over his way of going, etc. as others, BUT as well as the scary, spider-legs spectacular extended trot (if you like that sort of thing, and 1,000's did), he also had a truly amazing piaffe, and the transitions in and out were correct (and lovely to look at) too. Ah, so now we also come to the training bit - Edward Gal is an incredible rider. Never mind the training methods, roll Kur, etc., etc., he has a seat like no other and his timing is impeccable. His horses go like gods for him.

This is also Valegro's selling point: super extensions and absolutely spot on piaffe and transitions. Add in the relaxation, and very strong-yet-soft riding from CDJ (who I'm also not in love with, BTW) and you have the dressage horse that can do both.

 

[ycbm]

Not necessarily.....*whispers: Totilas......

Does he prove my point about the hocks? He was badly lame behind in his last competition at, what, fourteen?

 

[Cortez]

Does he prove my point about the hocks? He was badly lame behind in his last competition at, what, fourteen?

I don't know if that proves a point, there are many lame sports horses, and dressage horses are particularly vulnerable in the hocks due to the work they are asked to do. There are characteristic injuries and wearing in all horse sports (tendons in racehorses, front legs and stifles in SJ's, hocks in dressage, etc. etc.) that are well known.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

So it can be done with the extreme leg movers but is difficult, so takes a certain rider to get it + there is still the risk of injury. I guess the same quandary then as a horse more inclined to sit and trying to get them to extend then.

Judging is weird, as for me I never feel Topaz has been judged unfairly (in the main) considering her movement. Plus the scales of training and what people say they want, always seems the 'correct' way, but then there is this massive proliferation of horses going what people 'say' is the wrong way, but then they get marks that reward it? Confused.com!

 

[Cortez]

So it can be done with the extreme leg movers but is difficult, so takes a certain rider to get it + there is still the risk of injury. I guess the same quandary then as a horse more inclined to sit and trying to get them to extend then.

Judging is weird, as for me I never feel Topaz has been judged unfairly (in the main) considering her movement. Plus the scales of training and what people say they want, always seems the 'correct' way, but then there is this massive proliferation of horses going what people 'say' is the wrong way, but then they get marks that reward it? Confused.com!

There is always the risk of injury, unfortunately, good conformation is no guarantee. Yes, the riding is key and why you need to wait and see if a rider is consistently coming out with good horses (and scores), and not a one-horse-wonder (where is Adelinde Cornielsen these days?).

Judging is indeed weird and I think the main reason why things have gone to the Dark Side. You have encapsulated the problem: everyone says they want classical this and scales of training that, and then they go and reward things that are plainly wrong, ignoring their own guidelines. I left modern competitive dressage a long time ago precisely because of this.

 

[eggs]

When you mentioned the bouncing up behind in piaffe in your opening post I immediately thought of Parcival!

I had a De Niro mare who was 17.1 and quite long in the back. Right from a youngster she showed an aptitude for piaffe and in fact used it as an evasion. Her natural piaffe (think when she was excited about something when turned out in the field) was more towards the tendency to bounce up behind but with training she learnt to sit and bring her wither up.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

We'll never be at the top level, so happy to bumble along with our mediocre scores and continuing to be confused .

I think now I'm training another up the scales I can see so much more clearly just how inefficient I am as a rider, the quickness of reactions being my current bugbear. It was a revelation in the piaffe that, yes if I don't give a release then yes Topaz will give a nice levade as she has nowhere else to go, doh, and Skylla will get upperty if I don't release when she gets a bit too camped together and the hindlegs have nowhere to go.

Interesting eggs, blows the previous idea out of the water a bit then doesn't it, I wonder if it's back to the if it scores ok then we'll leave it alone?

 

[milliepops]

Firstly let me say that I don't "love" Totilas, and have as many conflicts and concerns over his way of going, etc. as others, BUT as well as the scary, spider-legs spectacular extended trot (if you like that sort of thing, and 1,000's did), he also had a truly amazing piaffe, and the transitions in and out were correct (and lovely to look at) too. Ah, so now we also come to the training bit - Edward Gal is an incredible rider. Never mind the training methods, roll Kur, etc., etc., he has a seat like no other and his timing is impeccable. His horses go like gods for him.

This is also Valegro's selling point: super extensions and absolutely spot on piaffe and transitions. Add in the relaxation, and very strong-yet-soft riding from CDJ (who I'm also not in love with, BTW) and you have the dressage horse that can do both.

Completely agree ^^

Odd one isn't it - tbf there are lots of things that some horses are naturally talented to and others have to struggle with their brains and bodies to do an approximation of the movement.

As a bumbling amateur I think sitting or not is something that must be the most difficult thing to train to a non-talented horse.

I have one that is a natural sitter now, she spends lots of time squatting on her hind legs, it's so natural!
I have had others that can really engage but getting the *sit* was way beyond them.
As a rider, if I was training up an engager-but-not-a-sitter then I would be happy for the horse to learn to do an approximation of the movement while I was developing it.
I think even at the top levels we still see a lot of work in progress...

incidentally, *refers to FEI judging handbook* for a 7 the criteria specify that there may be no visible lowering of the hindquarters

 

[Mule]

We'll never be at the top level, so happy to bumble along with our mediocre scores and continuing to be confused .

I think now I'm training another up the scales I can see so much more clearly just how inefficient I am as a rider, the quickness of reactions being my current bugbear. It was a revelation in the piaffe that, yes if I don't give a release then yes Topaz will give a nice levade as she has nowhere else to go, doh, and Skylla will get upperty if I don't release when she gets a bit too camped together and the hindlegs have nowhere to go.

Interesting eggs, blows the previous idea out of the water a bit then doesn't it, I wonder if it's back to the if it scores ok then we'll leave it alone?

I think any answer will be a general sort of idea. There will always be exceptions.