Dressage Piaffe...

[HufflyPuffly]

MP but you still see piaffes that do not sit scoring higher than a 7, could you share the criteria for the higher marks?

 

[Mule]

incidentally, *refers to FEI judging handbook* for a 7 the criteria specify that there may be no visible lowering of the hindquarters

So it sounds like the marks wouldn't justify asking a horse to sit, if it finds sitting difficult. I think that's fair enough tbh. Particularly if pushing it may lead to injury.

 

[milliepops]

So it sounds like the marks wouldn't justify asking a horse to sit, if it finds sitting difficult.

you can *ask* a horse to sit even if it finds it difficult, but if it can't then you won't score more than a 'fairly good', according to this single criterion

 

[milliepops]

MP but you still see piaffes that do not sit scoring higher than a 7, could you share the criteria for the higher marks?

uh yeah, there's a lot of text, hang on...

 

[milliepops]

OK so there's a page of text describing what a good piaffe is and then, a precis: where they are described, if several deficiencies are present then the score will obv be lower

10, excellent
Precision: started and finished at required markers, prescribed number of steps
Rhythm: absolute regularity
Suppleness: complete suppleness with a swinging back
Contact: neck proudly raised and arched with horse accepting soft and elastic contact. Nose approaching vertical
Impulsion: great energy and expression throughout, horse springing effortlessly from one diagonal to the other
Straightness: absolute straightness
Collection: hindquarters lowered and carrying with great activity and clear articulation of the joints, visible lowering of haunches allowing shoulders to be light and mobile
Submissiveness: Absolute willingness & harmony

9, very good
Precision: as per 10
Rhythm: regularity maintained throughout
Suppleness: as per 10
Contact: horse accepting soft and elastic contact. poll highest point of neck, Nose approaching vertical
Impulsion: as per 10
Straightness: as per 10
Collection: hindquarters lowered and carrying with great activity and clear articulation of the joints, however the steps may not appear to be as brilliant as for a 10. visible lowering of haunches allowing shoulders to be light and mobile
Submissiveness: as per 10

8, good
Precision: there may be absolute accuracy of the figure with some slight weaknesses compared to the 9 or 10 or there may be slight inaccuracy of the figure while showing very high quality of the movement
Rhythm: as per 9
Suppleness: horse is supple with a swinging back
Contact: as per 9
Impulsion: shows good energy however may not be quite as much energy or expression as seen for a 9 or 10
Straightness: as per 10
Collection: hindquarters lowered and carrying with great activity and clear articulation of the joints, however the steps may not appear to be as brilliant as for a 9 or 10. visible lowering of haunches allowing shoulders to be light and mobile
Submissiveness: no visible resistance

7, fairly good
Precision: there may be accuracy of the figure with some slight weaknesses in the movement or there may be inaccuracy of the figure while showing very high quality of the movement
Rhythm: the steps will be regular
Suppleness: fairly good elasticity with a swinging back. slight agitation of the tail may be apparent
Contact: a little more self carriage could be expected but still fluent and harmonious. the neck becomes momentarily a little tight
Impulsion: there could be a little more height and activity but the steps will be clear
Straightness: there is a minor deviation from the line but the quality of the steps will still be good. the slightest sway or swing
Collection: the steps appear expressive but without visible lowering of the hindquarters. there could be a little more activity and flexion of the joints
Submissiveness: there is a slight disturbance within an otherwise high quality piaffe


better stop now!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Thank you MP, really helpful and does give some insight as to what might be considered a 'poor' piaffe but scores a decent mark!

 

[milliepops]

again from a numpty POV I think in general there is also what is a good example of a movement for *that horse* and that's the kind of judging that many of us really appreciate. So if you have a horse which is really flat backed like some of the older fashioned WBs, they don't have the natural angle in their pelvis that makes sitting do-able, then a good (8) piaffe for *that horse* might be regular and supple and so on, but not have that magical huge sitting quality that an iberian horse might show... if the horse is doing the best within its limited body then I think to err on the generous is more realistic judging than to hammer it for something it physically can't do...
if it's genuinely soft, supple, regular, harmonious etc then hard to see how you could clobber the score by more than a mark or 2.

that's not to get away from the basic requirements of a movement .. it's the compromise between competitive and non-competitive (Big C Classical?) dressage i guess.
but, for instance, the judging that feels not in the spirit of it that I've had has e.g. said Kira doesn't have enough reach for extended trot... her legs are about 6" long! when she's in max extension she has an overtrack etc but it's never going to be like valegro. Never ever. I prefer a judge that might say she was tight or wide behind or something, something that I can address in training, cos I can't make her legs any longer, in a similar way that you can't really change a horse's body shape, though obv you can train it to a degree.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

again from a numpty POV I think in general there is also what is a good example of a movement for *that horse* and that's the kind of judging that many of us really appreciate. So if you have a horse which is really flat backed like some of the older fashioned WBs, they don't have the natural angle in their pelvis that makes sitting do-able, then a good (8) piaffe for *that horse* might be regular and supple and so on, but not have that magical huge sitting quality that an iberian horse might show... if the horse is doing the best within its limited body then I think to err on the generous is more realistic judging than to hammer it for something it physically can't do...
if it's genuinely soft, supple, regular, harmonious etc then hard to see how you could clobber the score by more than a mark or 2.

that's not to get away from the basic requirements of a movement .. it's the compromise between competitive and non-competitive (Big C Classical?) dressage i guess.
but, for instance, the judging that feels not in the spirit of it that I've had has e.g. said Kira doesn't have enough reach for extended trot... her legs are about 6" long! when she's in max extension she has an overtrack etc but it's never going to be like valegro. Never ever. I prefer a judge that might say she was tight or wide behind or something, something that I can address in training, cos I can't make her legs any longer, in a similar way that you can't really change a horse's body shape, though obv you can train it to a degree.

Devils advocate , how would a judge know that is really the best that horse can do?

I had totally convinced myself that Topaz couldn't extend, I was wrong lol, but to watch her do her hackney trot, extension looked impossible?

 

[Cortez]

The problem, I think, is that judges have become so used to seeing what they're seeing that this has become normal. Don't forget that modern competition dressage (which only began in 1912) was basically invented by the German cavalry and was angled towards the type of horse being bred for that job. Later the horses were purpose bred for the competition, which favoured the extensions and the precision that WB horses are good at. The "original" dressage horse, bred for the baroque manége, was never really figured into the competition arena.

Just look at the test that Fuego did VS the Totilas one (can't remember the exact comp - was it 2012 Olympics?). Both were magnificent, but different (including the extensions).

Also, have a look at some "old" dressage from the '80's - Ahlerich, Josef Neckerman, Marzog - and see how different it looks compared to today's superstars, especially where their heads are.....

 

[ester]

One thing I noticed recently is how much Valegro’s quarters move from side to side while he is in piaffe and wondered if it was considered correct.

 

[milliepops]

well it's an art, not a science, isn't it, but what I mean is,
if a horse that is clearly physically limited, e.g. it might be put together a bit odd compared to the ideal, and itt doesn't move with absolute elasticity and that spine tinglingly quality of steps... then it's not going to be hitting the 10s anyway. the rest of the test would give you an idea about what the horse could do - they don't just come in and piaffe from nothing.
So if it looked like the horse could be soft and uphill and supple and harmonious, and then it piaffed like that but not like a 10 piaffe cos it couldn't sit even though it seemed to be utterly willing and utterly through and the transitions in and out were seamless, then that would be a good (8?) piaffe for that horse, wouldn't it?

 

[Cortez]

But....judges don't mark "for that horse", they are supposed to mark against an ideal, and that I think is the problem - they haven't seen horses doing an ideal, they are used to seeing what is now normal....

 

[ycbm]

This isn't the worst I've seen of Parzival, but this is what I meant when the front end walks and the back end trots:

 

[Cortez]

Yuk....

 

[ycbm]

Yuk....

Quite. It looks to me as if there is never a moment when he is not carrying his weight on one front foot. He is not trotting in front, he is walking. It is not actually a piaffe at all and my recollection is that it scored at least eight.

 

[Goldenstar]

This isn't the worst I've seen of Parzival, but this is what I meant when the front end walks and the back end trots:

His piaffe was awful

 

[Cortez]

I always felt very uncomfortable watching Parsival, he was so tense and Ms. Cornielsen is an iron fisted (and iron seated) rider. Fundamentally, this is NOT how dressage was presented in the Good Old Days before it became a cut throat sport and, more pertinently, business.

 

[ycbm]

I always felt very uncomfortable watching Parsival, he was so tense and Ms. Cornielsen is an iron fisted (and iron seated) rider. Fundamentally, this is NOT how dressage was presented in the Good Old Days before it became a cut throat sport and, more pertinently, business.

I absolutely agree. The paradox is that he went on to a much greater age than most.

 

[Cortez]

I absolutely agree. The paradox is that he went on to a much greater age than most.

Meh; some horses are just sound, some are not, and sometimes it's just luck. There are so many promising horses that don't stay the course despite having the best conformation/movement/care/training, etc. that I really just close my eyes and wish these days.....I know everybody leaps up and down and condemns everything from when a horse was broken to having/not having turnout to conformation to tack to "doing too much too soon", but at the end of the day some horses stay sound, some do not no matter what you do.

 

[Mule]

well it's an art, not a science, isn't it, but what I mean is,
if a horse that is clearly physically limited, e.g. it might be put together a bit odd compared to the ideal, and itt doesn't move with absolute elasticity and that spine tinglingly quality of steps... then it's not going to be hitting the 10s anyway. the rest of the test would give you an idea about what the horse could do - they don't just come in and piaffe from nothing.
So if it looked like the horse could be soft and uphill and supple and harmonious, and then it piaffed like that but not like a 10 piaffe cos it couldn't sit even though it seemed to be utterly willing and utterly through and the transitions in and out were seamless, then that would be a good (8?) piaffe for that horse, wouldn't it?

I think a subjectively judged discipline has advantages in ways like this. We can take horses of different shapes and talents and train them.
Imo a good thing about dressage is that it rewards training more than ability. You can do a lot with a horse that's willing to learn. But if you want to jump and your horse can't then all the training in the world won't change that.

 

[nikkimariet]

Fig has a great piaffe. He's about 2 inches long with a good engine in the back. He struggles with the extensions.

Nova will have a great passage and has a beautiful extension on him, think he will find the piaffe hard work. Plus he's a lazy pig toad.

 

[Goldenstar]

Wastage through lameness is huge in all types and use of horses I don’t really think any sector has the moral high ground .
Parsival was a very difficult young horse this may have been a factor in his longevity.

 

[tristar]

if edward gal is so good, is it in spite of rollkur or because of it, and if he is so good why does he not just ride his horses with his wonderful seat, if he is so good that surely that would be enough?

the weg fuego v totilas thing really showed me how much i enjoyed fuego as opposed to totilas, i think the audience showed the judges the way to go, but they did not listen

 

[Cortez]

if edward gal is so good, is it in spite of rollkur or because of it, and if he is so good why does he not just ride his horses with his wonderful seat, if he is so good that surely that would be enough?

the weg fuego v totilas thing really showed me how much i enjoyed fuego as opposed to totilas, i think the audience showed the judges the way to go, but they did not listen

Interesting question: I think it is in spite of rollkur, and a shame that he has used it - he is a talented horseman; would that he had been exposed to the Spanish/Portuguese tradition (and horses, who are the best teachers of what you can impose) rather than the Dutch/German....

The audience often are more prescient than the judges (who are confined by the status quo). I much preferred the Portuguese horse at Olympia to some of the more Germanesque performances, but the marking system determined the final outcome. I believe the audience showed their preference....

 

[Goldenstar]

I have seen anyone who can ride a hot horse like Edward Gal it’s amazing to watch in real life ,videos don’t do it justice his seat his timing and his feel of when to give just left me watching in speechless awe the first time I saw him in real life .

 

[shortstuff99]

I have seen anyone who can ride a hot horse like Edward Gal it’s amazing to watch in real life ,videos don’t do it justice his seat his timing and his feel of when to give just left me watching in speechless awe the first time I saw him in real life .

Are the horses naturally that hot though? Or has his style of training driven them to look that horrible on the edge of explosion hot so that they look 'spectacular' ?

 

[shortstuff99]

This is Totilas as a 5 year old with a different rider, and it shows I think a very different horse. Just shows how training can alter a way of going...

 

[Goldenstar]

A lot of those really top class warm bloods are unbelievably hot Totilas never looked very hot with EG but you could see what’s happened when the rider did not suit him .
There’s used be an awful clip of him later at a stallion show it really upset me .
Undercover always looked a very hot horse I was never sure how he managed to ride him .

 

[shortstuff99]

Hmmm I'm not sure, the few I know that have been bred out of those Glock stallions have been lazy swines, with a thug attitude on the ground. Put me off ever having one myself!

 

[ycbm]

Are the horses naturally that hot though? Or has his style of training driven them to look that horrible on the edge of explosion hot so that they look 'spectacular' ?

Edward Gal refused the horse when first offered him as he thought he was too much to cope with. He was persuaded by the owner to take him on. There is an interview recorded somewhere where he talks about it.