Please tell me have I misjudged this?

[Fieldlife]

So £160 a month for the use of field and arena, plus £165 for harrowing the field and giving feed/hay?

What options do you have for restricted grazing? Shelter? Where do people store their feed so you can give it? Would you add supplements?

In the summer, the type of horse/pony that comfortably lives out all year wouldn’t need any feed or hay, so the owner actively wouldn’t want you to feed at all. Is that an option, and how does that work if you are feeding the other horse in the field? Given they don’t need feeding, the owner is then paying you £165 a month to harrow the field. Would seem expensive to them. Equally in winter, many horses are fine on just hay, and you cannot harrow in the wet, so they are then paying £165 extra for you to check the horse once a day if they are up to ride at the other end.

We are living in times with a high cost of living and lower disposable income, so many people would rather save money wherever they could. I don’t think £160 for hardstanding, use of field, stable in emergency/for dentist visits etc plus arena is bad. Maybe a little more to include harrowing (although you can’t harrow in winter as it’s too wet, so what do you do then?). I wouldn’t pay someone to feed and hay my horse when I could do it after riding though.

If you want full control, offer full grass livery, work out a price that includes absolutely everything, and then you do it all so owners can just come up when they want to ride and not worry about care. Or just do retirement livery?

It isnt just harrowing, it is also checking the health and welfare of each horse twice a day, meaning the owners do not need to visit both ends of the day. Even if not fed, should be checked twice a day, and that shouldnt be cost free.

 

[maya2008]

It isnt just harrowing, it is also checking the health and welfare of each horse twice a day, meaning the owners do not need to visit both ends of the day. Even if not fed, should be checked twice a day, and that shouldnt be cost free.

That's why I suggested making it a clearer 'full care' situation. Most owners who ride, especially in this financial climate, will want a yard close enough to home that popping in won't be much time/fuel, and will probably want to care for their horse themselves. If you're doing a proper full livery situation, that will be chosen by people who don't have the time to do that, might be away with work frequently etc. So worth them paying more for the peace of mind of knowing the horse is always seen to.

 

[dorsetladette]

I think your price is a bit high for what your offering.

I offered similar (but don't anymore) for two horses to live out with mine. I did morning checks and everyone had a treat ball of pony nuts in the field in a morning (no arguing over feed buckets), rugs checked and waters checked/topped up and generally checking over. Ad-lib hay in the winter (sept - mar)included in livery. Poo picking was shared.

The difference being I don't have stables, but have shelters that can be used as stables if needed. Livery brought their own pony in to feed separately in an afternoon if needed, met the vet themselves and farrier (although we shared the same farrier and generally visits). We don't have a school but are able to ride in the field pretty much all year so have an 'arena' fenced off. The hacking is also really lovely. Liveries were able to store trailers/lorries on site free of charge.

I charged £150 per month per horse.

I was also around for advise and plaiting for pony club etc.

I wasn't doing this to make money - I wanted company. So slightly different to your reasoning.

 

[Fieldlife]

That's why I suggested making it a clearer 'full care' situation. Most owners who ride, especially in this financial climate, will want a yard close enough to home that popping in won't be much time/fuel, and will probably want to care for their horse themselves. If you're doing a proper full livery situation, that will be chosen by people who don't have the time to do that, might be away with work frequently etc. So worth them paying more for the peace of mind of knowing the horse is always seen to.

Not sure in my experience finding a livery situation with

- well draining ground in winter,
- unlimited all year turnout including set up with shelters and hay in field in winter
- decent arena
- good hacking

often does mean a bit of travel for many people.

Having a living out livery set up, lorry parking, stables, an arena, and hacking is pretty rare IME, sadly.

 

[MuddyMonster]

It isnt just harrowing, it is also checking the health and welfare of each horse twice a day, meaning the owners do not need to visit both ends of the day. Even if not fed, should be checked twice a day, and that shouldnt be cost free.

This with bells on.

How I've interpreted it is that the OP is offering part livery at grass 7 days a week and the horse's needs and welfare checks are done for the owner so there's no need to go up daily if the owner doesn't want to or can't.

There's no way that should be akin to DIY/Assisted DIY costs especially given they have hard standing tie up, good hacking and riding facilities whereas so many grass liveries are often just a field.

This thread has been interesting reading for me - so many advocate 24/7 turn out on other threads - but it appears when offered it they expect grass livery to include regular use of a stable and daily checks to be at a vastly reduced cost.

Glad I'm not a YO to be honest!

 

[planete]

I tried offering an all inclusive price with hay, and would happily do so, the one person I have so far preferred just to pay more for it in winter than a flat fee through the year. Feed is harder as they vary so much but again if I knew the requirements I would include it, I assumed people prefer to source their own feed. There are two knowledgeable people there at least 4 times per day and similarly we are always improving the place. I can't imagine having a load of DIY liveries who are also responsible for some of the chores, managing that must be tricky?

I was also perplexed at things like poo picking, cleaning water troughs, putting hay out and generally helping out working so smoothly but it looks as if people who do not pull their weight start feeling they are outsiders and leave. It is a bit of a commune style enterprise really. It took some getting used to but is actually great and a relaxed place for humans and horses.

 

[greasedweasel]

Interested to see everyone is so anti feeding in the field, we have five horses turned out 24/7 and fed by their three separate owners - absolutely no trouble at all. They all know their people and only come over to be fed if it is their turn. No stress, no fuss.

 

[SEL]

I know some of the track systems who offer 'non stabled' livery have struggled to get people to understand the costs.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm a DIY YO, and my immediate feeling on reading your post was oh heck, you are opening yourself up wide to be taken advantage of here!

Personally I offer ONLY DIY at my place: and the "DIY" means "strict DIY" as in I'd only ever handle a livery's horse in an emergency. They are responsible for ordering their own stuff like hay, bedding, etc., and taking responsibility for vets/farriers visits etc., tho' again in an emergency I'll put myself on the end of a lead-rope - but not if the horse is difficult; I'm too darned old to get smashed up basically.

I would respectfully suggest OP that you consider firming-up the arrangement you are offering; write everything (and I mean everything) down that you ARE prepared to offer - and the costings for those things; and also the things that you would NOT wish to include. Then draft your advert accordingly. And don't compromise.

Good luck!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I think it’s too expensive for grass livery. I was paying £150 per month for retirement grass livery which included twice daily checks, rug changes, holding for farrier etc. Hay was about £40 extra a month when needed. That was South Oxon/Berks area. I’d love for my ridden horse to live out but this wouldn’t work for me in the winter when I wanted to ride, with no stable etc.

Working out at 10 per week for hay, that's 2 small bales a week at an average of a fiver a bale (yes am aware it can be more cheap but also equally more in places).
2 bales a week isn't enough for bigger ones in bad weather.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I really like the sound of the setup and what you are offering, feeding in the field wouldn't bother me at all, we have always done that. If I was looking for livery then I would love to find something like what you offer BUT and this is the big but, I don't currently pay livery costs as my horse lives with my parents, therefore I cannot say how your pricing compares to other options. I just wanted to reply so that you'd know the principle would be appealing to some. I would also stop calling it 'part grass livery' as that also makes me think of something different to what you can provide.

 

[Abacus]

This with bells on.

How I've interpreted it is that the OP is offering part livery 7 days a week and the horse's needs and welfare checks are done for the owner so there's no need to go up daily if the owner doesn't want to or can't.

There's no way that should be akin to DIY/Assisted DIY costs especially given they have hard standing tie up, good hacking and riding facilities whereas so many grass liveries are often just a field.

This thread has been interesting reading for me - so many advocate 24/7 turn out on other threads - but it appears when offered it they expect grass livery to include regular use of a stable and daily checks to be at a vastly reduced cost.

Glad I'm not a YO to be honest!

Thank you for this. I do feel that it's more than 'grass livery' which normally means a field, but also take the point that others have made about the wording of the ad, and that it might sound like this.

I've also been surprised that many people complain about lack of turnout and winter restrictions, horses being in for weeks and so on, and I thought there would be demand for a situation where I will allow turnout regardless (the fields always come back) but let people use a stable when they want to, and not at an additional charge.

I have found it hard when wording the ad because I have wanted to keep it simple, giving all of the info makes it quite a long complex advert and more 'rulesy' than I really am. But maybe it would be better.

 

[Abacus]

I really like the sound of the setup and what you are offering, feeding in the field wouldn't bother me at all, we have always done that. If I was looking for livery then I would love to find something like what you offer BUT and this is the big but, I don't currently pay livery costs as my horse lives with my parents, therefore I cannot say how your pricing compares to other options. I just wanted to reply so that you'd know the principle would be appealing to some. I would also stop calling it 'part grass livery' as that also makes me think of something different to what you can provide.

Thank you, the feedback helps! And in particular about how I describe it.

 

[Honey08]

I would expect hay included at that price. My DIY livery includes hay plus a 5x7 storage shed and it’s £160 pcm.

You’d pay around £300 pcm for retirement livery in a track/field/barn style with hay and checks.

 

[Fieldlife]

I would expect hay included at that price. My DIY livery includes hay plus a 5x7 storage shed and it’s £160 pcm.

You’d pay around £300 pcm for retirement livery in a track/field/barn style with hay and checks.

But you with retirement livery, you wouldnt have
- access to hacking
- a maintained arena /
- lorry parking
- nor the yard owner the hassle of owners being up pretty much every day to see horse and to ride

You'd expect retirement livery to be cheaper reflecting the lack of facilities.

 

[Fieldlife]

How about this description

Full service Grass livery with good riding facilities

• Small group turnout, well managed fields, limited mud in winter, no poo picking, shelters in winter
• Access to stables for tacking up / emergencies / physio treatments etc.
• Lorry parking, hard standing, regularly maintained arena, good local hacking, potentially supportive company to hack with
• Access to dry, secure storage for equipment and rugs
• Hay and feed given for you when needed (hay deliveries provided on site but extra charge for content - typically only needed in winter months, feed to be supplied by you)
• Twice daily checks by professional, fencing, poo management, field and water trough maintenance included
• Includes basic wound care / fly spray / feet picking out / rug changes (owner to provide all consumables)
• Owner responsible for arranging and attending vet / farrier / physio appointments though some assistance possible if prearranged

 

[Surbie]

It sounds lovely, and roughly what I pay in winter for DIY, including all my bedding & hay.

Personally I wouldn't like the bucket feeding in the field - I take mine out for any feeds to avoid him being driven off, but I get that you have a herd currently where this isn't an issue. That might be a sticking point for owners particularly where particular supplements/meds are included.

As others have said, it's YOUR set up, and if it is what works for you I would hold out for people looking for what you want to deliver. And be veeeeery picky about the people and how they might fit with your yard.

Good luck!

 

[JFTDWS]

It isn’t so much that people expect grass livery to be cheap, but if other yards are offering it cheaper in the area (and I don’t know the OP’s area to say they are - this is a hypothetical statement), it might explain why the OP hasn’t had much interest.

I also suspect that the sort of owners who want grass livery aren’t always the sort who want to pay for things like arenas. Most people I know who prefer grass livery are more interested in hacking, or use an arena sporadically and find it more cost effective to hire one as needed. I’m in this bracket - an arena is a nice extra but not a huge draw as I don’t use one often and a bit of flat field is just as good for most purposes.

 

[Fieldlife]

It isn’t so much that people expect grass livery to be cheap, but if other yards are offering it cheaper in the area (and I don’t know the OP’s area to say they are - this is a hypothetical statement), it might explain why the OP hasn’t had much interest.

I also suspect that the sort of owners who want grass livery aren’t always the sort who want to pay for things like arenas. Most people I know who prefer grass livery are more interested in hacking, or use an arena sporadically and find it more cost effective to hire one as needed. I’m in this bracket - an arena is a nice extra but not a huge draw as I don’t use one often and a bit of flat field is just as good for most purposes.

IMO there is a huge difference when you have grass livery where someone is checking horses and feeding them twice a day, cleaning water troughs, managing poo, managing weeds / supporting grass, maintaining fencing, putting hay out in winter daily. Where they would apply fly spray / change rug etc.

And grass livery where you put your horse in a field and the yard check it is alive daily, and field doesnt get much management / maintenance, and rugs are put on for the winter and left on etc.. And they maybe put big bales out in winter. And you'd expect different cost models for the two.

I also know lots of people with fully clipped horses, that compete all year round at a high level, and live out.

 

[Abacus]

How about this description

Full service Grass livery with good riding facilities

• Small group turnout, well managed fields, limited mud in winter, no poo picking, shelters in winter
• Access to stables for tacking up / emergencies / physio treatments etc.
• Lorry parking, hard standing, regularly maintained arena, good local hacking, potentially supportive company to hack with
• Access to dry, secure storage for equipment and rugs
• Hay and feed given for you when needed (hay deliveries provided on site but extra charge for content - typically only needed in winter months, feed to be supplied by you)
• Twice daily checks by professional, fencing, poo management, field and water trough maintenance included
• Includes basic wound care / fly spray / feet picking out / rug changes (owner to provide all consumables)
• Owner responsible for arranging and attending vet / farrier / physio appointments though some assistance possible if prearranged

Thank you, much better than my version! Really appreciate this.

 

[JFTDWS]

IMO there is a huge difference when you have grass livery where someone is checking horses and feeding them twice a day, cleaning water troughs, managing poo, managing weeds / supporting grass, maintaining fencing, putting hay out in winter daily. Where they would apply fly spray / change rug etc.

And grass livery where you put your horse in a field and the yard check it is alive daily, and field doesnt get much management / maintenance, and rugs are put on for the winter and left on etc.. And they maybe put big bales out in winter. And you'd expect different cost models for the two.

I also know lots of people with fully clipped horses, that compete all year round at a high level, and live out.

Obviously. But I don’t think that’s necessarily clear from the OP’s posts. I personally don’t consider harrowing to be managing fields well unless they’re really massive, and that’s not always popular with active riding / competition owners due to the practicalities, and the OP doesn’t mention managing weeds or grass etc - not that I think the OP isn’t doing it, but that people won’t presume they are from what they’ve written.

And I’m glad to hear that. It’s not my experience though - I know very few serious competitors who would want their horses out 24-7 all year round, in a herd.

My point isn’t that the OP isn’t charging what she deserves, or what the livery is worth. My point is that they may be in competition with yards who are - or might seem to be - undercutting them, and that would reduce the pool of potential liveries further.

 

[Honey08]

Actually I’d perhaps expect a retirement livery to be more expensive as they tend to need more checks as they get older and more management of things like cushings. The ones I looked at had hard standing turnout, indoor sheltered spaces in big barns and grass tracks plus regular fields so the livery could be tailored to the old horse’s needs.

I do think that the area where I live is probably cheaper than Oxfordshire though.

I’d be very wary of horses being fed in the field too. I’ve had a few liveries in the past that would have been a nightmare. I’ve seen a few grass livery places that actually gave feed in nose bags to prevent trouble.

 

[spotty_pony2]

I’d be another that would want an allocated stable too for in really bad weather or in case of injury. Sounds good apart from that though.

 

[skint1]

I think it sounds like a good offer, the fact stabling and hard standing is available is great and the living out is great. I guess for me personally I'd miss "doing" my own horse twice a day and making the decisions for her, but on the other hand, it would sure be nice to know she was being cared for if I had to work late or was ill or my family or friends needed me, or I just wanted to go somewhere.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Interested to see everyone is so anti feeding in the field, we have five horses turned out 24/7 and fed by their three separate owners - absolutely no trouble at all. They all know their people and only come over to be fed if it is their turn. No stress, no fuss.

Ours have almost always been fed in the field, at least part of the year.

 

[Boulty]

If I had a horse who tolerated grass in a normal way this is exactly the type of livery I’d want. I don’t like stabling but do like the option of one for emergencies / to hide in if it’s pissing it down & I’ve got a vet visit or similar or need somewhere for pony to stay clean & dry for an appointment or clipping. Fingers crossed you find some more takers.

 

[Lois Lame]

If I was looking for riding livery I would want my own stable so I could bring in to get ready as I wouldn’t want to just jump on straight from grass, I liked mine to have a good half hour off the grass before riding so it would only suit me for a retired horse but I still would be wary of feeding in the field and would want some sort of separation do each horse gets the right feed

I haven't caught up on all the replies yet but I like to bounce right in.

There would be a place to saddle and bridle, though, wouldn't there? Where I agisted my horse, we had what us Australians call a yard - a fenced off area for tying up one's horse to saddle and bridle or to feed said horse.

ETA: I just noticed that misread your reply
plus I quoted instead of editing

 

[Goldenstar]

I curious to ask those saying this is too expensive how much do you the livery owner should add to the price for the cost of the capital / borrowing costs of the land ?

 

[Abacus]

I curious to ask those saying this is too expensive how much do you the livery owner should add to the price for the cost of the capital / borrowing costs of the land ?

Obviously I am not one of those people.

We have seen similar threads before on making a living out of livery, or charging a price that reflects the cost of the land and infrastructure. If a yard was worth £250k (at the low end) and supported 5 horses, all paying liveries, you'd expect mortgage interest at 5% to be over £1k per month, so each livery on pure DIY would have to pay over £200pm just to cover this - never mind maintenance.

One argument against this is that the value of the land increases over time at a similar rate to current mortgage interest rate, at 5% per year on average, so the owner eventually benefits from this. So the increase in value offsets the interest. From a purely financial standpoint, there are better investments than this.

Market forces do eventually dictate prices, and much livery seems to me underpriced except at the luxury end. There isn't any point trying to charge £200+ per month when it doesn't compete locally.

 

[ihatework]

I curious to ask those saying this is too expensive how much do you the livery owner should add to the price for the cost of the capital / borrowing costs of the land ?

It’s fascinating to me!

I’m not in the ‘too expensive’ camp but I’m very much in the realist camp - if you can get a good enough facility for significantly less cost, most people (including me) will take that option.

I will stick my neck out and say that there is a very very low percentage of livery facilities that would build in a return on the land/investment, by doing that they would be priced out of the market.

On this type of thread you will always get people who live in cheaper rural areas with an abundance of land and a lower cost of living who are aghast at some of the prices ‘cos they only pay £60pcm for a field’, putting those aside.

There is a really huge crunch point looming in some areas of the country whereby climate change, cost of living, housing needs etc will mean that even more yards and fields will either be sold for development or look for alternative ways of generating income ….. horse people are going to have a very rude awakening

From my perspective with a tiny unofficial set up, but done well, a monthly price in the region of £300 all inclusive will keep my property maintained well and will provide me with some part time freelance cover, essentially I could keep a couple for ‘free’. Importantly, it will provide my horses with company and save me having to buy more! There will be no immediate return on the land at all.
But the land should also increase in value and as such the 2 liveries would in their own way support an eventual return.