Post deleted

[PurpleSpots]

With on possible exception, the posts on this thread aren't defamation - it's not defamation to state facts (e.g. results, even if they're selective) or to share opinions that are expressed as such. It's not helpful to cry defamation when most people are behaving fairly well.

I wrote 'I think this thread is tending towards defamation in places now.' because I fear that it is.

 

[Barklands]

And 64% at Novice on the same horse that same day...

I think this thread is tending towards defamation in places now.

I see you edited your comment to include the note about defamation. Is that in response to my comment in particular? A personal belief that her horses appear to lack condition and are not muscled in the way higher level horses usually are is not defamation. Nor is it defamation to state that this would make sense with another poster's first hand account that the horses are ridden once a week, if that is indeed true. I do not know IC therefore I cannot verify either way.

BD scores are there for all to see so certainly no defamation there either.

All that has been discussed on this thread is a commentary on a former owner's post on facebook - whether that is defamation or not is a matter to be decided on the evidence of her owners and MD herself.

People should rightly scrutinise the circumstance surrounding asking for £80k via a GFM. Particularly where there are allegations of neglect. This situation did not sit right with many, including myself when it was first posted. Defamation is a buzzword that is bandied around, however, it is only defamation when the statements are untrue. Scrutiny and personal opinion is not defamation.

 

[smolmaus]

This also isn't a thread about her riding or her scores. Bears no relevance to the GFM or anything else.

 

[ester]

It might influence whether a 15k horse actually becomes a 100k one though

 

[Barklands]

This also isn't a thread about her riding or her scores. Bears no relevance to the GFM or anything else.

A previous poster was trying to understand how she could achieve such results if only riding once a week - this is the only reason they were included

 

[smolmaus]

A previous poster was trying to understand how she could achieve such results if only riding once a week - this is the only reason they were included

I know, but tbh I don't think that's really relevant either tbh.

It might influence whether a 15k horse actually becomes a 100k one though

I thought we were all largely agreed on the value being wildly inflated will stop being thread police now tho, I'm just cranky

 

[PurpleSpots]

It might influence whether a 15k horse actually becomes a 100k one though

So surely that reflects back on the part-owner who is determining that they want x amount for their share of a horse trained solely by MD these last 5 years, but who is, together with someone she is pally with as she now has the ride on HER horse who she wants to buy out, accusing MD of all sorts!!

This is where the accusations fall down, and the whole situation just appears completely ridiculous.

 

[PurpleSpots]

I thought we were all largely agreed on the value being wildly inflated

I wonder how much TB is asking LZ to pay her for Horse J. That could be a very influential figure in determining how much LZ is requiring for her share in Olaf...

 

[Barklands]

So surely that reflects back on the part-owner who is determining that they want x amount for their share of a horse trained solely by MD these last 5 years, but who is, together with someone she is pally with as she now has the ride on HER horse who she wants to buy out, accusing MD of all sorts!!

This is where the accusations fall down, and the whole situation just appears completely ridiculous.

OR, and to be clear I am playing devils advocate here, not defaming, could it be that part-owner is unhappy about the care the horse received and attempted to out price so that it did not remain with MD?

 

[DressageCob]

I don’t think the scores contradict the assertion that she was only riding once a week. I also don’t think they support a tricky horse that required jock injections and maintenance and is know to crib being worth 6 figures. That’s why I’d love to see an official valuation, and I think everyone should have demanded that before sending their money her way.

Edited as someone has rightly pointed out that there are two riders with the same name with a horse with the same name as well and I got befuddled

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I agree that in this respect MD appears to being a little... Naive I think is the fairest word at this point. Naive if she thinks the wider public will accept this without having different opinions about whether this is appropriate or not.

There was understandable uproar about **'s GFM for H, and who knows where that money went.

The trouble is the naive members of the public have happily donated a f*** tonne to what feels like a rather spoilt sense of entitlement

The suggestion of the money going to physio (not an essential) or "content" (content she will probably benefit financially from) again sums up the social media generation

The content suggestion is really not on, so if she doesn't raise the target she will not only not refund the "lower" donations, she will then use them towards something that benefits her financially. She may do a charity donation but wouldn't be surprised if its a token amount and its not disclosed

People should not be allowed to use gfm to buy a luxury item. Maybe I need to start one so we can go on holiday since it seems anything goes. You know would be nice to have something to look forward to that's good for my mental health, make memories etc

 

[lizziebell]

Confusingly from her BD records, she has herself registered twice and two horses called Olaf (one is the one on the GFM which competes under the name Jaguar and the other is a 2019 horse). I don’t think the scores contradict the assertion that she was only riding once a week. I also don’t think they support a tricky horse that required jock injections and maintenance and is know to crib being worth 6 figures. That’s why I’d love to see an official valuation, and I think everyone should have demanded that before sending their money her way.

It’s a completely different rider and horse, just pure coincidence that the rider with the same name competes a horse with a competition name of Olaf.

 

[DressageCob]

It’s a completely different rider and horse, just pure coincidence that the rider with the same name competes a horse with a competition name of Olaf.

That’s a proper coinkidink! That makes sense

 

[groat]

She does not. She says

View attachment 171613

If these rugs / physio / content are so that all horses at redwings / whw / bransby or some other actual charity can get new rugs and a physio treatment and content means supporting a charitys social media activities then this is an actual charity. If it's spent on rugs / physio for her own horses and her own social media content it isn't a charity. It reads to me that it's either going in her own pocket OR to a charity and we will see which it turns out to be. — she just hasn’t updated the GFM with the info which she should:

From her stories today (and she’s commented it elsewhere, but agreed she should update the GFM info to reflect):

“Want to re-emphasise if this doesn't work bigger donations will be refunded and the rest redonated to a voted equine/ animal charity, non of this ends in my pocket. (If it was not manual refund I'd say it'd all be refunded!)”

 

[HopOnTrot]

She also has 2 FB pages, MD and ED Dressage, same horses on both, one seems to be selling the other training.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Been directed to this thread. Havent read it all but i was present at the yard she was at previously and can confirm she did not look after her horses well regularly turning up very late in the day if at all and messaging others constantly to feed and hay them. This was done as noone wants to see horses hungry, but they did regularly stand in unmucked out stables. she rarely rode maybe once or twice a week max and only when a camera was present and she was skilled at presenting a very different persona online. she is a lovely rider, but no conscience or ability to look after horses properly and she was asked to leave. If she didnt have help at the new yard she went to i can understand how the horses would loose condition drastically with basic needs not met.

Welcome back, hope all still going well with the horses?

 

[JTDAE]

The trouble is the naive members of the public have happily donated a f*** tonne to what feels like a rather spoilt sense of entitlement

The suggestion of the money going to physio (not an essential) or "content" (content she will probably benefit financially from) again sums up the social media generation

The content suggestion is really not on, so if she doesn't raise the target she will not only not refund the "lower" donations, she will then use them towards something that benefits her financially. She may do a charity donation but wouldn't be surprised if its a token amount and its not disclosed

People should not be allowed to use gfm to buy a luxury item. Maybe I need to start one so we can go on holiday since it seems anything goes. You know would be nice to have something to look forward to that's good for my mental health, make memories etc

I don't think it's fair to label donors as naive, it's their choice how they spend their money !

 

[JTDAE]

OR, and to be clear I am playing devils advocate here, not defaming, could it be that part-owner is unhappy about the care the horse received and attempted to out price so that it did not remain with MD?

LZ's behaviour needs more scrutiny. Removing a part - owned horse from the yard where his syndicate had placed him? Selling him abroad? What's going to happen to the other syndicate members?

 

[JTDAE]

I wonder how much TB is asking LZ to pay her for Horse J. That could be a very influential figure in determining how much LZ is requiring for her share in Olaf...

And I wonder whether Olaf has been independently valued? Because if he hasn't, it sounds as if LZ is basically ransoming him...

 

[KikiDee]

Just to add to the plot, there is another mare (LB) that was with MD last year, advertised for sale in September and then was on LZ's yard in October.

LZ has a video of the horses progress since it arrived with her.

 

[groat]

Just to add to the plot, there is another mare (LB) that was with MD last year, advertised for sale in September and then was on LZ's yard in October.

LZ has a video of the horses progress since it arrived with her.

I was … underwhelmed by that supposedly dramatic progress video especially as in the day 3 video the horse was a 5-year-old photographed a couple days after international transport. It just feels like what we are actually seeing in these condition/progress pictures and videos and what we are told we are seeing are not quite matching up. Not saying there’s nothing of concern that went on — none of us actually know — but there seems to be so much exaggeration (i.e. the supposed emaciation of a non-emaciated horse; the claim that horses didn’t have any food or water for “days on end,” which seems unlikely even if it’s true that some mucking out was neglected and feeds were late or even missed? especially as she seems to have non-syndicate horses there in the same time period that were fine). If there is solid evidence, surely the exaggeration isn’t needed? It does feel like a narrative is being crafted even if the evidence provided doesn’t quite fit. It’s all pretty unpleasant. Not sure anyone involved is going to come out of this looking good.

 

[KikiDee]

I was … underwhelmed by that supposedly dramatic progress video especially as in the day 3 video the horse was a 5-year-old photographed a couple days after international transport. It just feels like what we are actually seeing in these condition/progress pictures and videos and what we are told we are seeing are not quite matching up. Not saying there’s nothing of concern that went on — none of us actually know — but there seems to be so much exaggeration (i.e. the supposed emaciation of a non-emaciated horse; the claim that horses didn’t have any food or water for “days on end,” which seems unlikely even if it’s true that some mucking out was neglected and feeds were late or even missed? especially as she seems to have non-syndicate horses there in the same time period that were fine). If there is solid evidence, surely the exaggeration isn’t needed? It does feel like a narrative is being crafted even if the evidence provided doesn’t quite fit. It’s all pretty unpleasant. Not sure anyone involved is going to come out of this looking good.

I would agree the mare looks poor on arrival in the sense she’s weak but I’m also not sure what the expectations that had been set were.

If that horse looked like that on any livery yard I was on I’d think it looks absolutely fine. It’s a perfectly healthy weight. If it was supposed to be in intense training and at the peak of its physical fitness then I can understand the owners feeling disappointed with lack of topline etc.

I don’t think any of the evidence given so far shows horses in ‘poor’ condition. If they lacked the workload to look like the athletes they were supposed to be then that’s fair enough the owners are annoyed, especially if they were for sale and they’d want them at their peak.

However as you say, that’s very different to the allegations of serious neglect being thrown around and horses seized on welfare grounds.

TB said in one of her comments something along the lines of “if she hadn’t set up the GFM none of this would ever have come out but I had to say something” …. If there’s a court case and horses seized over welfare concerns how on earth would that have NOT come out?

 

[Barklands]

I would agree the mare looks poor on arrival in the sense she’s weak but I’m also not sure what the expectations that had been set were.

If that horse looked like that on any livery yard I was on I’d think it looks absolutely fine. It’s a perfectly healthy weight. If it was supposed to be in intense training and at the peak of its physical fitness then I can understand the owners feeling disappointed with lack of topline etc.

I don’t think any of the evidence given so far shows horses in ‘poor’ condition. If they lacked the workload to look like the athletes they were supposed to be then that’s fair enough the owners are annoyed, especially if they were for sale and they’d want them at their peak.

However as you say, that’s very different to the allegations of serious neglect being thrown around and horses seized on welfare grounds.

TB said in one of her comments something along the lines of “if she hadn’t set up the GFM none of this would ever have come out but I had to say something” …. If there’s a court case and horses seized over welfare concerns how on earth would that have NOT come out?

In relation to your last statement - a lot of cases are litigated that do not end up being publicised, particularly if they take place in the county court for example

 

[JTDAE]

In relation to your last statement - a lot of cases are litigated that do not end up being publicised, particularly if they take place in the county court for example

But if it was a welfare case, that would be criminal not civil, and would certainly be publicised.

 

[KikiDee]

In relation to your last statement - a lot of cases are litigated that do not end up being publicised, particularly if they take place in the county court for example

But in the comments she responds to people saying there will be press about it when it goes to court. Which you may keep quiet about because of legal matters yes, but then why post all over social media?

I just don’t get any of it tbh. To be so furious about your horses condition you seize them on ‘welfare grounds’ but then to be very cloak and dagger about it for 3 months and claim ‘contractual terms were overrun’, to then do a 180 and throw serious allegations of neglect and assault around. It feels like there has obviously been a huge falling out between all parties and the GFM obviously very much sparked a nerve.

I don’t stand in either camp btw, I just find it all odd!!

 

[Barklands]

But if it was a welfare case, that would be criminal not civil, and would certainly be publicised.

Not necessarily, clearly the neglect isn't RSPCA level, but rather an ownership dispute and disagreement over appropriate care which is most certainly civil

 

[groat]

But if it was a welfare case, that would be criminal not civil, and would certainly be publicised.

I wonder if it is a welfare case. Or is it perhaps about some kind of breach of contract / a financial or contractual breakdown of an arrangement and payment issues? I haven’t seen confirmation of the type of case, but maybe someone else has… TB said “relating to neglect” but that doesn’t necessarily mean an actual neglect case.

I believe the horses were “seized” by the syndicate not by any authorities, and I think the choice of word there was (intentionally or not) loaded and misleading. Is the welfare/alleged neglect evidence being brought up as part of a separate, more financial or contractual matter perhaps? Guess we’ll see if it goes to court.

 

[Beaudec]

But in the comments she responds to people saying there will be press about it when it goes to court. Which you may keep quiet about because of legal matters yes, but then why post all over social media?

I just don’t get any of it tbh. To be so furious about your horses condition you seize them on ‘welfare grounds’ but then to be very cloak and dagger about it for 3 months and claim ‘contractual terms were overrun’, to then do a 180 and throw serious allegations of neglect and assault around. It feels like there has obviously been a huge falling out between all parties and the GFM obviously very much sparked a nerve.

I don’t stand in either camp btw, I just find it all odd!!

I think you’re right re the GFM sparking a nerve and the way I see it, the allegations weren’t any of the public’s business until they/us/we were being asked to contribute to the £80k and therefore are entitled morally to be aware of another side of the story before parting with our hard earned

 

[AmyMay Again]

But if it was a welfare case, that would be criminal not civil, and would certainly be publicised.

Surely it would be civil? The horse(s) were removed by the owner(s). Not the RSPCA.

 

[groat]

But in the comments she responds to people saying there will be press about it when it goes to court. Which you may keep quiet about because of legal matters yes, but then why post all over social media?

I just don’t get any of it tbh. To be so furious about your horses condition you seize them on ‘welfare grounds’ but then to be very cloak and dagger about it for 3 months and claim ‘contractual terms were overrun’, to then do a 180 and throw serious allegations of neglect and assault around. It feels like there has obviously been a huge falling out between all parties and the GFM obviously very much sparked a nerve.

I don’t stand in either camp btw, I just find it all odd!!

Pure speculation but I wonder if LZ wanted to end the partnership and take over the rides (especially TB’s horse) now she seemingly has Olympic ambitions, and MD was being “difficult” and refusing to hand them over. Hence how it was referred to as communication issues and overrunning terms and deadlines previously. And then once that happened everything just broke down and it became very hostile (and everything became evidence).

MD did say she wouldn’t be naming the owner so people didn’t go after her as she’d helped her in the past, but there were a couple of hostile comments on LZ’s Instagram from people who made the connection that were deleted.