Pts & h&h!

Flame_

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 November 2007
Messages
8,025
Location
Merseyside
Visit site
There is very much a sickening rush to suggest PTS on here when a poster asks for advice but has not suggested euthanasia.
Funny how the people who rush to suggest euthanasia can't recall them.

* If people think euthanasia is a good suggestion, why wouldn't they suggest it?

Some responses on this thread are just silly. NO ONE is saying that PTS when it is in a horse's best interests is wrong.
It is wrong when the owner is irresponsible and simply wants to get rid of an unwanted animal because they're bored. Or when they just want rid so they can buy and mess up another horse.

* If the horse is saleable and strongly likely to find an alternative home where its needs will be taken care of and it will be a good purchase for somebody else, this seems a better and more likely suggestion in those circumstances. If someone has a horse that wouldn't be an appealing purchase for someone else, except dealers, nutters and naive do-gooders and they no longer want to maintain it, then from my POV PTS is often the most responsible thing to do.

Horses may not know that they are about to die (unless they are packed off to a slaughter house), but does make it any more justifiable ? Is the life of any sentient being so worthless that it can be snuffed out on a whim ?

* Do you swat flies? Poison rats? Yes the lives of sentient beings are so worthless humans regularly snuff them out on a whim.
 

DJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 April 2010
Messages
1,000
Location
Lincs
Visit site
OP, I also notice this happening a disproportionate amount on this forum. It's so odd and it does take me aback at times because I just don't know people like this in real life. I can't put my finger on why it happens here but you're right, it does.

Now, you see i would disagree with the above statement (in the kindest possible way). When i made the decision to PTS my youngster 3 years ago, i was vilified for it, according to some i hadn`t done enough, tried enough, etc etc etc (internet folk, no-one on here). I don`t need to justify it, myself and the vet could see there was no hope, no more could be done for him. So that was that (even though it shattered me).

How ever if i was ever in that circumstance again, i wouldn`t tell anyone, i just wouldn`t. I would not open myself up the that level of judgement again. In real life i know of a high number of people who have PTS, and then said it was an accident/illness/injury, when in fact they have confided in me that in truth it wasn`t, but they wont own up to making that decision for the very valid reasons of circumstances changing, or ill/old/unsound/problem horse that they can`t won`t sell on, for fear of judgement from the type of (some of) the people on this thread (and these type of people who exist in real life too) ... now that is what really gets me cross, that folk who are in dire circumstances, for what ever reason, feel they can`t be open and honest about PTS and get the correct support.


If the British and Irish horse markets weren`t in the dire state that they are, then yes, i could understand it, but when there are animals being dumped on a regular basis, charities are full to overflowing, and there seems to be no end to this crisis for the forseeable future, then i can`t see a problem with a horse being PTS, if it is old/lame/unsound/behavioral/issues that need careful management/quirky/vet checks done all ok/for sale for ages but i`ve had no interest ......

**goes off to make a morning cuppa and crack on with house work**
 

babymare

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 June 2008
Messages
4,081
Location
cheshire
Visit site
whoa patchworkpony thats a very sweeping statement to make. I dont see myself as selfish or did isee Baby as something to discard unwanted(i wouldhave given her away or tried to sell her if did.) I saw her as a very much loved horse whose future would not have been rosey if i had passed her on. Situations and curcumstances are so varied to make such sweeping statement
 

RunToEarth

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 November 2005
Messages
18,550
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Because horse owners are much more selfish than they used to be and we live in a throw away society these days!

I don't agree. Horses are now widely available to everyone - you can buy one with relatively little money and you don't need to have any qualifications or even knowledge unless the seller stipulates that you do.

Therefore you have a lot of inexperienced people buying horses and then realising they are too expensive to run/more difficult than they thought/have issues/are not right for the job in hand/injured.

I maintain that having a horse PTS is a lot more responsible than passing it from pillar to post to avoid the guilt of having a horse shot.
 

DJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 April 2010
Messages
1,000
Location
Lincs
Visit site
I don't agree. Horses are now widely available to everyone - you can buy one with relatively little money and you don't need to have any qualifications or even knowledge unless the seller stipulates that you do.

Therefore you have a lot of inexperienced people buying horses and then realising they are too expensive to run/more difficult than they thought/have issues/are not right for the job in hand/injured.

I maintain that having a horse PTS is a lot more responsible than passing it from pillar to post to avoid the guilt of having a horse shot.

^^^ This, absolutely this.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,020
Visit site
That does seem to be the case. Even over here I know many top class breeders who have put the kibosh on breeding their very nice horses for a year, or are breeding less mares. I'm lucky in so far as I don't have huge amounts of broodmares, I do have loads of land and I'm quite happy (and in some cases want) to hang onto my youngsters for a few years.

I don't know what the answer is. Breeding of good quality horses can't stop though otherwise where would the breeds be. The backyard breeding is a concern and it sounds like this is a very big part of the UKs equine problems and that's the breeding market that really needs to dry up, but as long as people continue buying these animals then the BYBs will keep on breeding. I'm not against an equine meat market, I think there is most definitely a need for it. I'm also not against others having their horses PTS; I just wouldn't choose it willy-nilly for any of my horses.

I don't know if it was on this thread or the other one that's running alongside, but Pearlasinger did pick up on a point which I totally agree with. She mentioned people, particularly those who are less experienced, should be considering older horses. Hey in my day schoolmasters were all the rage and they taught us a lot. Many of these horses were in their 20s and still going strong. These days a lot of people buying their first horse are looking at barely broken youngsters which very often aren't the best choice. These old horses have so much to give, not only to inexperienced riders either and it's a shame that more people aren't taking them on and finding out all the gifts they have to offer.

The older horse can be a marvellous first horse however older horses often need good management the type of management that you learn with time and many owners are going it alone on DIY yards with little or poor ( or downright bad ) support .
I would also advise the rider considering of the older horse to do a serious brain storming before buying thinking through the senarios that may occur .
Such as the horse does it job brilliantly but just as the rider is ready for the next stage the horse is needing to wind down etc etc .
Forewarned is forearmed .
 

Abacus

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 February 2011
Messages
2,121
Visit site
Perhaps it isn't about forum people rashly advocating PTS in absolutely every case, or alternatively insisting that a horse is never PTS (as with daisysp8) - we have probably all seen shades of both scenarios. I think it's about the mentality of people on a forum - it's a natural tendency to disagree, to play devil's advocate and to thresh out a situation. So when someone is suggesting PTS their horse, the forum people will say no - but when someone has a difficult problem and want solutions, the forum people will then suggest PTS! Added to which it's easier on a forum than in real life to express an extreme view, or even make your own view seem more extreme than it really is by being persuasive.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,020
Visit site
Perhaps it isn't about forum people rashly advocating PTS in absolutely every case, or alternatively insisting that a horse is never PTS (as with daisysp8) - we have probably all seen shades of both scenarios. I think it's about the mentality of people on a forum - it's a natural tendency to disagree, to play devil's advocate and to thresh out a situation. So when someone is suggesting PTS their horse, the forum people will say no - but when someone has a difficult problem and want solutions, the forum people will then suggest PTS! Added to which it's easier on a forum than in real life to express an extreme view, or even make your own view seem more extreme than it really is by being persuasive.

Good thoughtful post .
 

YasandCrystal

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 April 2009
Messages
5,588
Location
Essex
Visit site
The thing is here that you cannot force people's attitude. There will always be the owner who is happy to sell a loyal horse in their veteran years in order to get another, which is not something I could do. And yes there maybe a great home waiting for that veteran horse, but the fact remains that the new home will possibly feel they owe the horse less loyalty for a retirement if they have only owned it for a short time, who knows. There will be the owner who cannot afford a horse in retirement along with a riding horse and they may pts the unrideable one. Is that so wrong? Again I couldn't do it unless the horse was in pain, but who am I to judge when I can afford to have some horses out of work. Not everyone can. There will also be the owner who may have retired a horse but can no longer afford the ownership who decides to pts.
Whoever decides to pts their unrideable horse to give it a known future is the one who has to have that death on their conscience and if they can feel that is is right sobeit, who am I or we to judge that decision?

Also do we always believe the expressed opinion of people on a forum? Do they really walk the talk in real life?
 
Last edited:

starry23

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2013
Messages
145
Visit site
I've not read every single post on this thread but I have to say, from my own experience, I wouldn't hesitate to have my (unrideable) horse PTS if for some reason I could no longer afford it.

My horse (who will be 13 this year so not at all old) seriously injured herself last year and it is uncertain whether or not she will be ridden again and if she is it will only be as a light hack. She was never easy to hack and is certainly not a novice ride so, unless she has mellowed out a lot in her time off, she isn't going to be worth anything. If she was a rock-steady happy-hacker then I might be able to secure her a home but, as it is, anyone who could ride her would likely want something capable of more than just a walk round the countryside. The issue I had was that I'd spent so much on treating her injury and getting it diagnosed (yes she was insured but it was a long drawn out issue which cost nearly twice what she was insured for) that I'm now pretty skint! I've given up a lot of things and I'm making some changes so I can continue to afford her. I certainly cannot afford a second horse but I'm lucky I have the offer of a few ponies to ride. I wouldn't put her down just so I could buy myself a horse to ride* (although it is pretty rubbish going from riding every day to hardly anything, it has been quite a lifestyle change) however if I was struggling to keep her more than I am just now and there was nothing else I could do to keep her then I wouldn't hesitate to have her PTS. I wouldn't rehome her because who knows where she'd end up (possibly buted up and ridden too hard etc). The same goes for if she begins to find life in the field too difficult. I'd much rather a day too soon than a day too late and I'd much rather her life ended while she was still happy and reasonably healthy than going through a whole lot of pain and suffering.

ETA *but that is just me and based on the relationship I currently have with my horse - I certainly wouldn't look down on anyone who chose to do that.
 
Last edited:

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
I have a friend who has a six year old warmblood, she is paying full livery for it down here and has moved away, looked around and realised she can not afford prices where she has moved to. She hasn't had any sales enquiries and won't drop the price because she doesn't want to risk it falling into the wrong hands and so is considering PTS. This is by no means a useless horse, it is rideable, no issues, slightly sharp as mares can be, I'd have it if I had the time/money or land for anther but I don't. PTS is becoming more of a reality than ever before and there is nothing anyone can do about it, we as an equine community have bought this on ourselves.

That is just ridiculous! I will probably be taking on a new horse sometime in the Spring and don't have the capital to pay much for one but it would have a five star home for life! Your friend is robbing her mare of the chance of an exceptionally happy life with a new owner. So long as she is careful who she sells her to.
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
In an ideal world, everyone would give their horses a nice long retirement and only when the horse's quality of life is compromised, have the animal PTS quietly at home. In reality this rarely happens and there are many who would PTS as soon as the horse can no longer do its job. Should these people be forced to give the horse a retirement? Of course not. I don't think a horse being retired by a person who resents it would have a particularly nice life. And if its problems are such that make rehoming a very dodgy prospect, then it is best the animal is PTS at home. But if you do PTS in such circumstances, it is a bit rich to then come on here with a 'tribute thread' looking for sympathy.
 

star26

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 March 2009
Messages
198
Location
South West
Visit site
I don't agree. Horses are now widely available to everyone - you can buy one with relatively little money and you don't need to have any qualifications or even knowledge unless the seller stipulates that you do.

Therefore you have a lot of inexperienced people buying horses and then realising they are too expensive to run/more difficult than they thought/have issues/are not right for the job in hand/injured.

I maintain that having a horse PTS is a lot more responsible than passing it from pillar to post to avoid the guilt of having a horse shot.

These are my thoughts exactly!

I know each case is different, and i am not saying every 'un-useful' horse should be put down by any means, but i do think there are far worse things that can happen to a useless (from owners view) horse other than PTS.

Example: A few weeks ago, in one of those 'horses free or under £100' FB groups, i noticed that an acquaintance had posted, offering a horse of hers free to a good home. Said horse is a lovely old boy but has been badly abused in a previous home and has been left in a field for the past few years by current owner- result is that he is v. nervy, semi-feral and not been ridden/handled properly in years- possibly ever. Current owner is giving him away as a 'project' horse- thinking that someone will take the time to work on his issues. Someone dared to suggest PTS and said owner shot her down, saying she wanted him to have a loving home not die! I have read the many replies to her post on FB and most people are clearly looking for a free horse to flip and sell on. Current owner is extremely naive to this and sold him to the person who could collect soonest- a total stranger- believing that he has gone to a 'forever' home. I am afraid that this is probably not true and that the poor old boy will suffer, be passed on and on, and could end up being abused again. It would be better for him (and i think the owner owed it to him) to be PTS at home, in the field he has lived in for the past few years, peacefully- his future would be secure at least.

I'm not saying all horses should be PTS as soon as they become 'useless', but i do think that as owners we have to start being more responsible and stop being so naive, if we can't keep them to the end. If a horse is sound, sane and still has miles on the clock that's one thing, but if you have an elderly, ailing or broken horse that you can't or don't want to keep, then you should man-up and make some tough decisions to safe guard their future- be it retirement livery or PTS.

I also think we forget how simple it is to judge a situation when we are not emotionally invested, hence often seeing things on here such as 'You should have old Bobby PTS'! An outsiders perspective can often be the truth we don't want to hear, in real life when one's judgement can be clouded by emotion or stress, it is often hard to know the right thing to do.

At the end of the day it's a personal choice for every owner and it will be different for each person.
 

khalswitz

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2012
Messages
3,496
Location
NE Scotland
Visit site
In an ideal world, everyone would give their horses a nice long retirement and only when the horse's quality of life is compromised, have the animal PTS quietly at home. In reality this rarely happens and there are many who would PTS as soon as the horse can no longer do its job. Should these people be forced to give the horse a retirement? Of course not. I don't think a horse being retired by a person who resents it would have a particularly nice life. And if its problems are such that make rehoming a very dodgy prospect, then it is best the animal is PTS at home. But if you do PTS in such circumstances, it is a bit rich to then come on here with a 'tribute thread' looking for sympathy.

I disagree. Personally, making such a decision over a horse I loved to bits, whilst maybe the most sensible option for my circumstances, would still break my heart.

Having my last one PTS, despite the fact he was field-lame and genuinely in pain, still had me feeling so guilty that I couldn't afford to throw absolutely every possible treatment going at him, or have gotten a second opinion sooner when I realised my vet was an idiot, or have known about the chiro I use currently who could maybe have helped him.

If I had to PTS an essentially sound horse, I would feel even worse, and would want to be able to talk about it with people who would understand - in real life, I am surrounded by very rich people who could afford to keep a retired horse even on livery, and I know I would not be understood for having to choose between riding and a retired horse - not necessarily agreed with by all, but understood and not vilified for that decision.

If you don't agree with PTS, it is very easy not to read the tribute threads...
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
I disagree. Personally, making such a decision over a horse I loved to bits, whilst maybe the most sensible option for my circumstances, would still break my heart.

Having my last one PTS, despite the fact he was field-lame and genuinely in pain, still had me feeling so guilty that I couldn't afford to throw absolutely every possible treatment going at him, or have gotten a second opinion sooner when I realised my vet was an idiot, or have known about the chiro I use currently who could maybe have helped him.

If I had to PTS an essentially sound horse, I would feel even worse, and would want to be able to talk about it with people who would understand - in real life, I am surrounded by very rich people who could afford to keep a retired horse even on livery, and I know I would not be understood for having to choose between riding and a retired horse - not necessarily agreed with by all, but understood and not vilified for that decision.

If you don't agree with PTS, it is very easy not to read the tribute threads...

I am sorry, but if you really 'loved a horse to bits' you would not PTS so you could ride. You don't kill animals you love unless it is the best thing for them or you have no other choice due to financial circumstances. Being able to ride is a choice.

In the case of your field lame horse, he was in pain and so that would not fall into 'PTS so you can ride' category.
 

Tinypony

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 December 2006
Messages
5,211
Visit site
I think this is about ownership. We own the horse, when we decide it's useless then we make a personal decision on whether to retire, pts or other option.

I think you can only not afford to keep a retired horse if your personal circumstances have changed. Not because you want to keep a fit horse you can ride. In that case it's not a matter of not being able to afford to keep the retired horse, but choosing not to. Which again is personal choice.

I'd put a horse to sleep if I knew quality of life was poor, they were in pain for example. Not, as some I know did, because they decided the horse wouldn't "cope" with retirement - without even trying it to see.

I think it's muddying the water a little to talk about horses being sold down the road, sent to unsuitable homes, over-breeding and suchlike because everyone is coming at this from the basis of being a responsible owner who wouldn't risk their horse's future. I didn't think we were really talking about what anon "others" do with their horses at the end of their usefulness, but more what would we do?
 
Last edited:

MerrySherryRider

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 September 2004
Messages
9,439
Visit site
I don't know why people keep giving examples of reasonable decisions to PTS, or talking about over breeding being the excuse for having healthy horses PTS.
Over breeding is irrelevant when the criticism is about posters on here being so blasé about specific incidences of owners not wanting to take responsibility for the horse that they own.
There are times when euthanasia is the right choice but repeated advice on threads to end the life a horse that is merely an inconvenience is unjustifiable.
Euthanasia is the last resort after all other avenues have failed, not the first and that, I thought, was the whole point about this thread.
 

khalswitz

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2012
Messages
3,496
Location
NE Scotland
Visit site
I am sorry, but if you really 'loved a horse to bits' you would not PTS so you could ride. You don't kill animals you love unless it is the best thing for them or you have no other choice due to financial circumstances. Being able to ride is a choice.

In the case of your field lame horse, he was in pain and so that would not fall into 'PTS so you can ride' category.

See, I disagree there. You can love an individual horse to bits, and yet still love riding more. Doesn't mean you don't love one because you choose the other.

I know my field-lame horse was a pain scenario, but had he come sound in the field in his six months off, but not been rideable? It certainly would have taken me longer, but I would eventually have PTS'd him so I could ride. Ultimately, no matter how much I love him, my head knows I'm daft to stop riding because of it. It would be a heartbreaking decision having to choose to ride over keeping your horse, because you actually have to admit that no matter how much you love your horse, you love your hobby more.

I've thankfully avoided it so far, but with my Idx, who at 11 years old was lame to ride, but sound in the field, I really had to consider it. I looked at cheap livery, and possible shares, and spent 9 months riding for other people whilst keeping him going, but he was getting less and less time because I was trying to keep him going in one place whilst riding somewhere else, plus holding down a job (at a yard, so more than full time) somewhere else... and when you are going through all that keep a horse going, you start to resent not having any money because of it, and the lack of sleep trying to fit everything in. Thankfully in his case, I spoke to his old owner one day, who had originally sold him to me because she was too scared to ride him, and she had land and a few Shetlands to keep him company, so she took him. But I was at the point where I was crying myself to sleep at night and lost about 2 stone worrying over what I could do, but feeling horrendously guilty considering PTSing my boy, but knowing I couldn't go on the way I was, and that giving up riding would be giving up everything I had been aiming for since forever - I was never allowed a pony as a child, and didn't get to start doing horses until I could pay for it myself, by working at yards and doing part time jobs on top. So for me, giving that up would be giving up everything I'd ever really worked for.

So I do disagree that PTSing a healthy horse automatically means you don't love it, I'm sorry.

ETA: My 'don't read the threads' comment was a general one, not aimed at you...
 

fatpiggy

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 December 2006
Messages
4,593
Visit site
When my girl was retired in her mid-20s I CHOSE to maintain in her in retirement. To me she had served me well and deserved the best I could do for her. I had no intention of replacing her so the cost of keeping two wasn't a problem. Now, alot of people thought I was crazy as she cost me £4000 per year in medication plus costs of keeping plus transport costs for me to see to her twice a day (£60+ per week as she was 17 miles from home and 10 miles from work). After nearly 5 years of retirement I CHOSE to have her PTS before another winter got too much for her arthritis. If you have the funds and the facilities to keep a field ornament then that's clearly what many would choose to do. But I won't condemn someone who can't afford to keep as well as replace and is worried for the future of the unuseable, so decides to PTS. We would all like to think that a fairy godmother will appear and take over the care and bills for us! The people I would condemn are those who turn a blind eye to the needs of their pensioner and either won't man up and do the decent thing, or deliberately refuse to see the problem. Where I kept my girl were two ponies which had the RSPCA called out to them twice while I was there, through simple and blatent neglect - one was very elderly and deserved a quick end, the other was youngish and deserved a decent life. There was also a TB in its early 30s which was thin and frail and really ready to go too, but the owner couldn't even be bothered to come up once a day if she could get someone else to do it for her. It broke my heart to lose my old girl, she was the centre of my universe but because I loved her so much, I could let her go. Her life was becoming a burden to her.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,020
Visit site
I think a lot depends as well on where you can keep your horse if you can find a nice yard with good grazing I mean good big fields to wander and socialise in not two acre electric fenced turn out paddocks.
A place where the horse are in apporiate groups do oldies don't get pushed around by the younger ones.
I would not however ever retire my horses to 24/7 turnout it's pretty cold and windy here in bad weather I always stable at night in bad weather neither can I bare to see horses get no respite from flys in the summer so I stable the worse part of the day too .
 

Marydoll

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 March 2011
Messages
7,140
Location
Central scotland
Visit site
Its easy to pontificate about what people do or dont do with their horses, especially when we dont know the full story. Keeping horses is a huge expense and very time consuming, not everyone has the funds or time to keep broken or old horses, and if they want to be able to ride and can only afford one horse, what should they do ? Its a whole different ball game keeping a treasured horse who youve shared many years with and a horse youve had a few months who breaks in an irrepairable way.
I have more respect for people who pts old and infirm beasts rather than selling them on to an uncetain fate, or worse, free to a good home so they dont need to take the responsibility or pay for and be part of the deed !
I dont see it as a bad thing when we look at the amount of abandoned, neglected and abused animals who are sold for pennies with caveats that are then resold, or given away in many cases to people who cant really afford them in the first place.
 

Queenbee

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 August 2007
Messages
12,020
Location
Cumbria
Visit site
That is just ridiculous! I will probably be taking on a new horse sometime in the Spring and don't have the capital to pay much for one but it would have a five star home for life! Your friend is robbing her mare of the chance of an exceptionally happy life with a new owner. So long as she is careful who she sells her to.


Wagtail I don't disagree with you, it sits badly with me too. I'm trying not to get involved because I'm not supposed to know (I found out through a mutual friend) I can always drop her a message if you would want.
 

Wagtail

Horse servant
Joined
2 December 2010
Messages
14,816
Location
Lincs
Visit site
Wagtail I don't disagree with you, it sits badly with me too. I'm trying not to get involved because I'm not supposed to know (I found out through a mutual friend) I can always drop her a message if you would want.

The horse I would be looking for would be a weight carrier that my novice husband could ride, so she probably wouldn't be suitable. But if I was looking for one for myself, then she would be. I was just making the point that there ARE very good homes out there for horses even that are being given away. Obviously you have to be very careful, but selling any horse is a risk, no matter what they are worth as you can never guarantee their future.
 

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
8,517
Visit site
The horse I would be looking for would be a weight carrier that my novice husband could ride, so she probably wouldn't be suitable. But if I was looking for one for myself, then she would be. I was just making the point that there ARE very good homes out there for horses even that are being given away. Obviously you have to be very careful, but selling any horse is a risk, no matter what they are worth as you can never guarantee their future.
That is so true having sold a lovely warmblood cheap to a friend where he was supposed to live forever she sold him 15 months later. Dont know where he is now
The point most people are missing is that the reason a lot of people say PTS when asked is this is a horse forum, most of the people on here love horses and wouldnt want to see them suffer Most have seen the media hype about the state of too many horse in the world and therefore most would like to see their special friend gone from here and never reach that point. OK there are a few that would PTS for a multitude of reasons but basically most of us that advocate PTS are doing so to prevent the possibility of things happening outwith our control and the ensuing cruelty and suffering that appears to be round every corner.

Ask a general forum of ordinary people and you would get far fewer recommending PTS as they are less involved with the care and expense of keeping a large animal You get a lot on here because of the nature of the forum
 
Top