Public sector pensions

[Wundahorse]

Couldn't agree more with these sentiments.There is huge wastage in the public and private sector,which if better managed would be more beneficial to the nation.The German economic model seems to work exceptionally well,so why don't the politicians get of their British high horses and research whether a similar model could be implemented here.Also the UK is a consumer society rather than a manufacturing Nation,hence this sector needs to be supported by Government to create jobs and inject cash into the economy.The welfare state is huge and quite unmanageable in the benefit department,and this is another area where money could be saved and used more effectively.The benefit culture also emasculates those who do not want to work,as they have no incentive to get out of bed to do a days work.

 

[Mithras]

Well all you hear in the media about other countries like Germany is propoganda about the war or how awful they are - I lived in Germany for six months and wish I'd never left, it was fantastic!

I also question the talent we are producing in this country. I mark postgraduate papers and too many students do not know how to research using proper sources (not Wikipedia), critically analyse, compare and contrast differing information (they can only describe the point they agree with) and even spell and know where to use capital letters! My husband often has to recruit engineers and computer scientists and says there is a real problem in finding candidates in these areas to interview, let alone those who can actually do the job. But then wheres the incentive to study a difficult subject such as engineering when students see overpaid administrators earning 80k a year for not doing very much?

 

[Wundahorse]

Germany is a lovely country which seems to uphold good standards in all areas,the place is clean and the people could not be more helpful.GB,in contrast is struggling with it's identity,core values and good citizenship.

 

[paddy555]

You are not wrong there.....too many layers of management justifying their jobs.....and the actual job losses/freezes seem to affect the people actually doing any work of real value.....

.

don't even get me started. As an ex civil servant (reasonably well paid) I brought in many many times my salary and pension costs for the government. My pension was contribution free except for W & O.(1.5%)
We downsized due to government policy (thanks Gordon). I had the choice of early retirement (early 50's) or I could have stuck it out for redundancy. I choose early retirement, lump sum and pension paid immediately. Ok reduced a little as I had not achieved the full 40 years but I can live with that

It is lovely. I spend all my days working my horses and I am grateful for the pension.
However I was not the only one. Many of us took extremely early retirement on the same basis. My friend had to wait for a couple of months for his 50th birthday before he could do. We had years and years of experience and were bringing in many times our employment costs. It took a lot of money to train us. I didn't particuarly want to retire. I was happy to go onto my normal retirement age of 60 and then go part time.

Before the government moan about public sector pensions they should look at the wastage they have created, the extremely poor high level management they are condoning and the vast cost of all this. I don't think public sector pensions are sustainable on the current basis and I would have been happy to contribute to mine. However it would be advantageous to really examine poor performance by govenment and top level management in order that cost and wastage could either be reduced or better performance could be obtained from the public service.
(not for one minute being rude about public sector workers on here, unless of course they are top managment in which case I am being extremely rude.

 

[MinnieDuke]

actually I think what Jeremy said needed saying - I am extremely grateful he said it! but what has this to do with horses ? having worked in racing when I left school the working conditions of stable lads and lasses up and down the country is really tough - they will never see the £200K my mates sister is going to get in their pension for being a teacher! The public sector need to toughen up and take the economic crisis like the rest of us, on the chin - we all have to. I've had to scale my busines down from 13 to 4 people - IF they striked it would have been a case of : there is no money in the pot - so strike all you want - there is at the end of it no jobs! I havent had a holiday for the last two years, I've been eating soups last few months because they are cheap and filling and money is tight ..... ! I dont have the luxury of having £400 a month to put into a pension .... lucky you... enjoy your penion it comes from my hard work

 

[Wundahorse]

In actual fact the NHS pension is funded via NHS staff with some funding from the Government,and this scheme has only done well comparatively because it has been invested well.Private pensions were affected by the market forces due to bad investment companies and bankers.Not one person has rounded on the investment sector,and all those overpaid financial advisor's who squandered peoples money on risky ventures.Also the racing industry is renowned for paying the stable lads and lasses poorly.Racing is not a critical and necessary service aimed at the needs of the nation,it is a luxury for the well off.And look what happens to some of those poor racehorses who don't cut it on the track,discarded in favour of the next model.Sorry no great sympathy for the racing industry,only for the horses.

 

[perfect11s]

In actual fact the NHS pension is funded via NHS staff with some funding from the Government,and this scheme has only done well comparatively because it has been invested well.Private pensions were affected by the market forces due to bad investment companies and bankers.Not one person has rounded on the investment sector,and all those overpaid financial advisor's who squandered peoples money on risky ventures.Also the racing industry is renowned for paying the stable lads and lasses poorly.Racing is not a critical and necessary service aimed at the needs of the nation,it is a luxury for the well off.And look what happens to some of those poor racehorses who don't cut it on the track,discarded in favour of the next model.Sorry no great sympathy for the racing industry,only for the horses.

Simple.. Gordons tax grab saw to private pensions...

 

[BeesKnees]

In actual fact the NHS pension is funded via NHS staff with some funding from the Government.

Wundahorse I'm interested to know where you think the money to pay your salary, and from which your tax and pension contributions are taken, comes from?!

And where you think the money paid by NHS for the employer's pension contribution comes from?!

Yep, tax. Paid for by the private sector taxes. Without private sector tax, there is no money to pay public sector workers. Full stop. So effectively our tax contributes twice to your pension! First in your pay and then in the employers contribution.

I dont know if HHO forum members is a representative sample, but I'm staggered by just how little awareness so many of the public sector workers on here seem to have about how the financing of the public sector works

 

[perfect11s]

Wundahorse I'm interested to know where you think the money to pay your salary, and from which your tax and pension contributions are taken, comes from?!

And where you think the money paid by NHS for the employer's pension contribution comes from?!

Yep, tax. Paid for by the private sector taxes. Without private sector tax, there is no money to pay public sector workers. Full stop. So effectively our tax contributes twice to your pension! First in your pay and then in the employers contribution.

I dont know if HHO forum members is a representative sample, but I'm staggered by just how little awareness so many of the public sector workers on here seem to have about how the financing of the public sector works

dont be silly they do!!!
them nasty tories are keeping all the money and being mean and cruel....

 

[Dirtymare]

Wundahorse I'm interested to know where you think the money to pay your salary, and from which your tax and pension contributions are taken, comes from?!

And where you think the money paid by NHS for the employer's pension contribution comes from?!

Yep, tax. Paid for by the private sector taxes. Without private sector tax, there is no money to pay public sector workers. Full stop. So effectively our tax contributes twice to your pension! First in your pay and then in the employers contribution.

I dont know if HHO forum members is a representative sample, but I'm staggered by just how little awareness so many of the public sector workers on here seem to have about how the financing of the public sector works

This is supposed to be a welfare state, but its fast being erroded.
Maybe when there is no more NHS, Social Services and other service *paid* for by the Private Sector - because believe me that will happen and soon - you will all be up in arms!!

 

[BeesKnees]

This is supposed to be a welfare state, but its fast being erroded.
Maybe when there is no more NHS, Social Services and other service *paid* for by the Private Sector - because believe me that will happen and soon - you will all be up in arms!!

I would be up in arms before that happened. I believe in a welfare state and in the need for a public sector doing vital work, that is paid appropriately. And I'm happy to pay tax to support it.

What I find tiresome is public sector workers, who appear to be too institutionalised or too insensitive or frankly perhaps just a bit too dim, to know how the public sector is paid for, or to care about how things are for anyone other than themsleves. Or even to understand the very pension system they are striking about

 

[Wundahorse]

I am well acquainted with how the NHS and other public sector is funded,and i also pay taxes and NI which contributes to services.I also know about the national assistance act,etc.What i would like to know is why this Government sold of Northern Rock at a knock-down price,which taxpayers funded to buy when it was on the brink of collapse.Now that is a huge waste of public money and a big gain for Richard Branson,who is wealthy enough already.

 

[cptrayes]

i also pay taxes and NI which contributes to services.

Did you see this? you do not pay ONE PENNY of what it costs to run the state. If your salary was paid to you net of tax and NI it would male NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOVER

Currently PrSE (Private Sector Employee) pays £100 tax to a PuSE-1 (guess ) and PuSE-1 pays £20 of that to PuSE-2.

If PuSE's paid no tax, then PrSE would pay £80 to PuSE-1 and £20 to PrSE-2. No change to the economy, just to a bit of pen-pushing.

See, Public Sector Employees don't really pay anything towards the maintenance of the Public Sector, it's just a figure on a bit of paper passing from one place to another!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

This is supposed to be a welfare state, but its fast being erroded.
Maybe when there is no more NHS, Social Services and other service *paid* for by the Private Sector - because believe me that will happen and soon - you will all be up in arms!!

The NHS is long overdue a drastic overhaul there is no way it can continue providing free at the point of demand services the way they are now. The NHS should be free at the point of demand for acute services only - that is casualty etc any long term chronic care should be paid for - even in part by patients. Every prescription and procedure should come with a price tag which is given to the patient - it should then be compared to their tax code/contributions they have made and deducted accordingly. The cost of prescriptions should be raised to £10 - when collecting your drugs any that cost less - of which there are plenty you should be charged the cost of the drug plus a dispensing fee, any that cost more should be charged at £10 BUT the patient should be told how much the drugs cost - maybe then they would take them instead of wasting them

As with everything is life if no value is placed upon the item then no value is attached to it by the recipient and they don't care about it

Will any government ever have the balls to reform the NHS properly? no of course not as everyone is 'entitled'

 

[Toffee44]

I am thinking of opting out of my pension with the NHS and going private on the matter, at least then the money is my own.

 

[Wundahorse]

Tinsel unicorn i do hope you never require expensive treatment on the NHS.If you do,then you may well appreciate what the NHS provides.Either that or head to the USA where you will get nothing unless you have the funds to pay for treatment.I agree reform needs to be made as the NHS is top heavy with bureaucrats who are clueless and end up spending precious money on pointless schemes and reforms,as instructed by Government who also have no concept of what can be achieved to save costs.Sadly Government always seeks advice from so called consultants who have no idea what goes on in front line care.They never ask Doctors and Nurses what they think may improve services,as after all,we are the people providing care and treatment.It was the Governments idea to spend billions on a database that had already failed in new Zealand,who then had an inspiration to sell this beleaguered product to good old Blighty.

 

[BeesKnees]

Did you see this? you do not pay ONE PENNY of what it costs to run the state. If your salary was paid to you net of tax and NI it would male NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOVER

Wundahorse - The tax you pay has already been paid to the state through our taxes. And then given to you in salary. You are just paying it back. The state is no richer from that transaction!!

Santa Paws - Blimmin hell. It's like banging your head against a brick wall

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Tinsel unicorn i do hope you never require expensive treatment on the NHS.If you do,then you may well appreciate what the NHS provides.Either that or head to the USA where you will get nothing unless you have the funds to pay for treatment.I agree reform needs to be made as the NHS is top heavy with bureaucrats who are clueless and end up spending precious money on pointless schemes and reforms,as instructed by Government who also have no concept of what can be achieved to save costs.Sadly Government always seeks advice from so called consultants who have no idea what goes on in front line care.They never ask Doctors and Nurses what they think may improve services,as after all,we are the people providing care and treatment.It was the Governments idea to spend billions on a database that had already failed in new Zealand,who then had an inspiration to sell this beleaguered product to good old Blighty.

Thanks but I have spent the last 20 years working in the NHS so am well aware of what it provides and what its shortcomings are - its also why I have private medical insurance - which I also pay tax on

 

[Wundahorse]

All of the money we earn ends up elsewhere to pay different people who in turn pay others.That's just how the economy works.No different if you are public or private sector.My tax pays for your care and treatment Beesknees,though doubt you have considered that.I also pay towards your state pension,that is if you live long enough to receive it.

 

[BeesKnees]

Tinsel unicorn i do hope you never require expensive treatment on the NHS.

Her post suggests it should be valued more and wasted less!

Your arguments seem to consist of irrational rants about how it's everybody else's fault.

The reality is we all enjoyed the good times and turned a blind eye to whatever practices were producing the wealth.

Now we all have to suck up the results

 

[Wundahorse]

Simply making a point same as you,and find your awareness of the public sector somewhat irrational and media informed.

 

[BeesKnees]

Nope I spent 4 years in the public sector on double what I earn now. My husband is public sector as is my sister.

I have clearly stated my support for the public sector. My posts are not irrational. I just don't think you've really read or understood them

 

[tinuviel]

I think some of you need to re-read Santa Paws posts and digest the information provided as it is spot on. It appears only people who understand how pensions work are able to grasp the issues with the public sector pension provision. Not many companies have even retained a final salary scheme nowadays, they have moved them all in to money purchase schemes. The public sector, like the private sector has done, needs to move over to money purchase schemes. No private company could afford the current public pension provision so how on earth would anyone expect the public sector to afford it. Am afraid on this particular issue (actual salaries, expenses, etc are a different issue and as Santa Paws has said, what are the unions doing about this?) the public sector have to accept change of some degree.

Also, despite public sector workers paying tax, it is true the money initially comes from the private sector. The tax needs to be deducted first from the private sector before the public sector workers can get paid...what is so difficult to understand about that concept.

 

[cptrayes]

All of the money we earn ends up elsewhere to pay different people who in turn pay others.That's just how the economy works.No different if you are public or private sector.My tax pays for your care and treatment Beesknees,though doubt you have considered that.I also pay towards your state pension,that is if you live long enough to receive it.

Wundahorse not ONE PENNY of what any Publicly Funded employee pays in tax adds to the amount which is available to finance the Public Sector.

What do you not understand about this, let us help you? The money you pay personally in tax and NI is simply to allow "the system" to treat your salary adminstratively the same as private sector workers.

Figures rounded for simplicity:

I pay £200 tax on £1000 of my salary.

It pays £200 say, for ease of argument lets say that's your total salary for the week.

You pay £40 of that £200 of salary to the salary of the Nurse who lives next door.


Lets now take away tax from your salary.

I pay £200 tax on my salary.

It pays £160 ,your total salary with no tax for you to pay

And I also then pay £40 of the salary of the Nurse who lives next door.

See? You could pay NO TAX AT ALL and there would be NO DIFFERENCE to the economy.

 

[Mrs B]

Simply making a point same as you,and find your awareness of the public sector somewhat irrational and media informed.

Oh Good Lord! Will you lay off the 'irrational and media informed' drivel?

If you could manage for once to take the enormous chip you seem to have grown OFF your shoulder, you might be able to see that all sorts of people from many backgrounds have thought this through for themselves and come out with the same answer, although it may not be to your liking.

To imply that they are ALL being mislead by the media and are too stupid to think for themselves is, frankly, insulting.

 

[perfect11s]

Oh Good Lord! Will you lay off the 'irrational and media informed' drivel?

If you could manage for once to take the enormous chip you seem to have grown OFF your shoulder, you might be able to see that all sorts of people from many backgrounds have thought this through for themselves and come out with the same answer, although it may not be to your liking.

To imply that they are ALL being mislead by the media and are too stupid to think for themselves is, frankly, insulting.

What amazes me about these threads is how the public sector people keep digging!!! if I was one the sooner these posts died down and were forgotten the better THEY have done nothing but harm the cause and make more people aware of the generous PS pensions and pay , and harden attitudes against the bloated wineing public sector....

 

[Wundahorse]

The initial point was that not all public sector staff will get big pensions because a lot receive the minimum wage.Also the pension scheme changed around 1997 to an average salary scheme.In addition the private sector was robust for a long time until the credit crunch,and their pensions were invested differently.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

In addition the private sector was robust for a long time until the credit crunch,and their pensions were invested differently.

It has nothing to do with the credit crunch BUT it does have to do with Gordon Brown launch massive tax raids on the pension funds to fund New Labours ridiculous incosted spending plans - which included the unprecedented expansion of the public sector.

 

[Dirtymare]

The NHS is long overdue a drastic overhaul there is no way it can continue providing free at the point of demand services the way they are now. The NHS should be free at the point of demand for acute services only - that is casualty etc any long term chronic care should be paid for - even in part by patients. Every prescription and procedure should come with a price tag which is given to the patient - it should then be compared to their tax code/contributions they have made and deducted accordingly. The cost of prescriptions should be raised to £10 - when collecting your drugs any that cost less - of which there are plenty you should be charged the cost of the drug plus a dispensing fee, any that cost more should be charged at £10 BUT the patient should be told how much the drugs cost - maybe then they would take them instead of wasting them

As with everything is life if no value is placed upon the item then no value is attached to it by the recipient and they don't care about it

Will any government ever have the balls to reform the NHS properly? no of course not as everyone is 'entitled'

Sorry, but this doesnt constitute a Welfare State.
*Everybody* who works pays taxes - no matter where the money comes from - we all pay.
I do hope that you or your family do not need care from Social Services or from the NHS for 2 reasons - the first being that I do not wish ill health onto anyone.
But, also that in the near future, people will have to pay extra for their treatment and long term care. I say Extra, as you already pay in your taxes, and this will have nothing to do with pensions .
Not everyone wastes their medication. And not everyone is a benifit scrounger.

 

[cptrayes]

*Everybody* who works pays taxes - no matter where the money comes from - we all pay.

I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it until you believe me

NO PUBLIC SECTOR WORKER CONTRIBUTES ONE PENNY FROM HIS PUBLIC SECTOR PAY TO FINANCE THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

ALL the money to finance the public sector comes from the private sector.The payment of tax and NI by public sector workers is purely an administrative convenience, it does not contribute a penny to the running of the state, in fact it COSTS money to collect it! Arguably, there would be more money available for the public sector finances if you were all paid a salary which didn't include tax and NI in the first place.