Public sector pensions

Dirtymare said:
Yes, we get what you are saying Santa Paws.
But you are chosing to ignore the fact that services are being divested to the PRIVATE sector.
As I have stated, Selby Council actuallty only employ 14 workers. This is the future and reality. And is going to happen to the NHS.
You may scoff at those in the NHS and other services, and tell us there would be plenty to take their places.
However, there wont be any jobs left in the Public Sector soon for others to take.
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None of that is the point that I was making. Posters on this thread persisted in saying again and again

"I pay taxes that contribute to the payment of my pension"

and

"I pay pension contributions from my salary".

We, me and several others, were trying to make it clear that you do not pay one penny of real money towards your pensions and THAT is why it is grotesquely unfair for you to continue to have such wonderful pension terms when the people who are paying for them for you have no hope of getting anything like it themselves.

The discussion of privatising the Public Sector is another one altogether. The strike was about pensions and pensions alone. And it was unjustified.
 
Santa Paws said:
Think about it Wundahorse. If there were no private sector employees at all, where would your salary come from, for you to pay your taxes to fund your own healthcare?
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If there were no Private Sector Employees at all there would be no need whatsoever for a Public Sector - who would their customers be? Conversely there are areas of the UK that rely on the Public Sector wages for the Private Sector to survive. They both need each other, but once everything is privatised the Private sector will just be shuffling money amongst itself, which from HHO seems to be the preferred option.

Privatisation doesn't mean private healthcare that you just pay to use, it means that it is private companies running the NHS rather than the Public Sector. You are also going to have Private Companies running the Ministry of Defence.
 
siennamum said:
So if you work for a private sector company who work for government are you earning money from the Govt. or the company? Is it real money or are you in fact a public sector worker in disguise........ I'm really confused (in case you hadn't realised)
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If you work in any job doing a public service which is funded by income tax, corporate tax or local rates then you are part of the public sector whether your employer is making a profit or not.

So, if you are employed by Bam Nuttal digging a hole in the road in Cheshire, and Bam Nuttal are invoicing Cheshire East Council for your work, you are a public sector employee in the real sense of the term. The difference is that Bam Nuttal are a private company and need to make a profit and they simply cannot afford to pay you pension of the same level as you would get if you were direct workforce, employed by the Council. They'd go out of business if they had to find that kind of money.

To the person who keeps telling me Selby employ only 14 direct staff:

Do the ratepayers of Selby pay higher rates or lower rates than they would be doing if the services were provided directly by Council employed staff?
 
[You may scoff at those in the NHS and other services, and tell us there would be plenty to take their places.
However, there wont be any jobs left in the Public Sector soon for others to take.[/QUOTE]

My profession is dwindling beacuse there are so few universities offering courses for the professional qualification, and now with the cost of going to university - perhaps I will keep my job by default!
 
OH PUHLEAZE BACK AT YOU !

OK I give you that there is no shortage of people signed up as police officers etc BUT there is a national well publicised shortage of midwives.

Personally I find your constant explanations of how tax works extremely patronising - working for the public sector does not equal being thick.

I don't wish to be rude but come and spend a day doing my job and then see if you moan about how good public sector workers have it.

The fact remains, that ALL the money generated in the economy is generated by the private sector. The public sector cannot exist before the private sector generates taxes.
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Chicken and egg springs to mind here - if the governnment didn't purchase supplies and services from the private sector - less income would be generated, more people would be unemployed/companies failing.
 
dieseldog said:
If there were no Private Sector Employees at all there would be no need whatsoever for a Public Sector - who would their customers be?
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The unemployed, those on maternity leave, the retired, those who work for no pay, students, children.



dieseldog said:
Conversely there are areas of the UK that rely on the Public Sector wages for the Private Sector to survive.
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It is a spurious argument to split the country by regions. We are taxed as one country.


dieseldog said:
Privatisation doesn't mean private healthcare that you just pay to use, it means that it is private companies running the NHS rather than the Public Sector. You are also going to have Private Companies running the Ministry of Defence.
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This forum was not discussing privatisation when it was started. I have NEVER discussed privatisation as part of what I am trying to say. The discussion was about the Public Sector strike over PENSIONS.
 
Magicmillbrook said:
I dont think there is a single public sector worker who doesnt agree that something has to give with their pension schemes. My pension scheme was revamped 3 years ago (or possibly longer) to make it more sustainable and I understand that further cuts are needed, either that or the government is going to have to hire hit men to bump some of us off at the age of 70.

What I and many others disagree to is the extent of the changes, the lack of consultation and the disparity in what is happening to us when other public sector workers are not being included in these pension changes - for example MP's. If you add this to the job losses, pay freezes, regrading (wager cuts) and massive cuts and in many cases loss of the services that we provide with love and pride and you end up with a lot of very angry people. I feel the public sector worker has now taken over the mantle of 'whipping boy' from the bankers.

Regarding the circular questions about tax - of course everyone understands that money comes from production. What p****s the public sector worker off is when people carp on that they pay your wages - we all pay tax, yes its true that tax from the public sector doesnt increase the tax pot, but the feeling of seeing how much your actual wage is against your gross pay every month is painful for a public and private sector alike. Is a public sector worker supposed to say 'yes I pay a lot of tax, but thats ok, it doesnt count because it wasnt my money in the first place'. Then we hear that unemployment benfits are increasing in line with inflation, whereas our wage, that has been cut, or at the very least frozen for three years may or may not rise by 1% in two years time - it blinkin well rankles.

My job isnt just a 'job', its a vocation. I my field I could earn more in the private sector, in fact only a few weeks ago I was offered a consultancy posts in the private sector for a bigger salary, company car and private health care, gym membership and all my training and proff fees paid. I chose not to take it because I prefer to work for the little person and I love the challenges that it brings. I dont like the long unsociable hours, unpaid overtime or the beurocracy - but hey, on the whole I am lucky. My department being given the master plan for its restructure on Monday -15% loss in workforce without the loss of any front line services (yeah - right), perhaps I was a little hasty.

Once the government has raped and pludered this resource - what is left....
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I love you Magicmillbrook..............What I was trying to say, only more eloquenlty.
 
Santa Paws said:
If the calculations that I have given above have not shown you that this is not correct, then I am at a complete loss as to how to explain any more. Let me think ....


OK, let's say I work in Tesco and I earn £200 a week and pay £40 of that in tax which goes back into your salary as a nurse, say.

You come into Tesco and you spend that £40 on your groceries for the week.

Fine, you have contributed to my wages.

But if I did not pay tax and NI in the first place, I would still have that £40 and I would spend it for myself, thankyou very much :)
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But you wouldn't have a health service, street lighting, education, defence, bins collected etc - you would be £40 better off though!
 
Santa Paws said:
Oh PUHLEEZE!

Do you REALLY think no-one would do your jobs if you didn't? I don't hear of any difficulties recruiting trainee policemen, nurses, firemen, CPS lawyers, or indeed ANY public sector workers except perhaps science teachers who can earn so much more out in Industry.
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They would still be Public Servants! You either pay the wages of Public Servants or your contribute to Private Sector profits - I would say choose - but you have no choice - its all going private
 
Horlicks said:
Chicken and egg springs to mind here - if the governnment didn't purchase supplies and services from the private sector - less income would be generated, more people would be unemployed/companies failing.
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If the public sector did not buy supplies there would be no requirement for the company to pay Corporation Tax or Commercial Rates and their prices would be correspondingly lower and more customers would buy from them.
 
dieseldog said:
But you wouldn't have a health service, street lighting, education, defence, bins collected etc - you would be £40 better off though!
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Yes, dieseldog, why did you cut the post of mine that you quoted before this line, which came next:


There may be a question of what an awful society it would be to have no public sector, but this is not it. Neither is it Public Sector bashing.
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Santa Paws said:
Yes, dieseldog, why did you cut the post of mine that you quoted before this line, which came next:
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Because that line was totally irrelevant, what is the point in making people read your public Sector bashing over and over and over again.

You are never going to change your mind - thats fine - as long as you are still working you are still paying taxes and paying the Public Sector Pensions :cool:
 
Horlicks said:
OH PUHLEAZE BACK AT YOU !

OK I give you that there is no shortage of people signed up as police officers etc BUT there is a national well publicised shortage of midwives.
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I have researched the national shortage of midwives and all the analyses that I can find state that the shortage has been caused by a massive increase in births, substantially due to Labour's immigration policies, and a failure to train enough Midwives to do the job.

There is, as far as I can find, no shortage of people prepared to train as midwives if they could and therefore my scepticism of your comment "who would do this job if I didn't" remains.

Horlicks said:
Personally I find your constant explanations of how tax works extremely patronising - working for the public sector does not equal being thick.
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Horlicks you are not the only one posting on this thread and it was clear that other people had not understood so I continued to try to explain. If I am annoying you there is an "ignore" button which will prevent you from ever having to read anything I write. Please feel free to use it.
 
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dieseldog said:
Because that line was totally irrelevant, what is the point in making people read your public Sector bashing over and over and over again.

You are never going to change your mind - thats fine - as long as you are still working you are still paying taxes and paying the Public Sector Pensions :cool:
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I don't make anyone read anything dieseldog. If you don't like what I write please feel free to put me on ignore.
 
Here is one for you Santa Paws – the LA I work for is an entrepreneurial council. We have significant financial reserves from selling off our housing stock. We have a portfolio of business properties and companies, we have separate trading companies under our umbrella selling services to other councils and sell out expertise and training to public and private sector businesses – We also have the lowest council tax in the country - so when I get tax taken from my wages, paid to me by this Council – am I contributing toward my pension or am I still robbing Shelia from Tescos to pay for my Werthers originals and support stockings?
 
Magicmillbrook said:
Here is one for you Santa Paws – the LA I work for is an entrepreneurial council. We have significant financial reserves from selling off our housing stock. We have a portfolio of business properties and companies, we have separate trading companies under our umbrella selling services to other councils and sell out expertise and training to public and private sector businesses – We also have the lowest council tax in the country - so when I get tax taken from my wages, paid to me by this Council – am I contributing toward my pension or am I still robbing Shelia from Tescos to pay for my Werthers originals and support stockings?
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First, no-one is robbing anyone.

Second, your question cannot be answered without saying what your job is. If your job consists of selling something to which you have added value (ie it cost your organisation less to obtain it than the price for which it is being sold) and if that "something" is now being sold to the private sector for them to use entirely within the private sector, then the tax you are paying for the part of your job which is now in the private sector dealing commercially with outside organistations is "real" tax. Complex, innit?

Your local authority sounds very good! A great mix of private and public, don't you think?
 
First, no-one is robbing anyone

The way folks some are going on you would think we are!

Complex, innit?

Absolutely - glad my area of expertise is not tax and I dont pretend to understand it - as far as roles goes, we all work as a team at my LA:)


Your local authority sounds very good! A great mix of private and public, don't you think?

In some ways its great, but in others I think the Councillors get carried away with 'running a business' and forget about the very real statutory functions we have to perform.
 
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Santa Paws said:
The fact remains, that ALL the money generated in the economy is generated by the private sector. The public sector cannot exist before the private sector generates taxes.
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This 'fact' is actually not uncontroversial. It does depend on your preferred model of macroeconomics. Proponents of chartalism / modern monetary theory, for example, would argue the opposite.

Either way, the private sector does not create money it only redistributes existing money. The supply of money in the economy is controlled by the central bank. It normally does so by buying and selling government bonds. In exceptional circumstances it creates money through quantitative easing.
 
Santa Paws said:
If you are paid from the public purse you do not contribute ONE PENNY of tax or NI to fund your own healthcare, welfare benefits or pension. ALL your own public services are paid for by the tax take from the private sector.
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If the tax contributions of public sector workers don't count towards healthcare, welfare, benefits or pension, does this mean that public sector workers should be exempt from paying VAT, council tax, fuel duty and road tax?
 
Anglebracket said:
This 'fact' is actually not uncontroversial. It does depend on your preferred model of macroeconomics. Proponents of chartalism / modern monetary theory, for example, would argue the opposite.

Either way, the private sector does not create money it only redistributes existing money. The supply of money in the economy is controlled by the central bank. It normally does so by buying and selling government bonds. In exceptional circumstances it creates money through quantitative easing.
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Huuuuh !!!!!! I guess you must be a lefty !!! The private sector creates wealth, maybe by digging coal or stone out of the ground and selling it taking a raw material like iron ore and making steel which in turn someone makes a car, truck, washing machine , screws etc which we export or sell to each other
the private sector adds value to goods and services earns foriegn currency , your idea of how economics work is the bulshit that has got us in the mess we are in! money gambling, and goverments fidleing figures, crap and a fail !!!
 
perfect11s said:
Are you hard of thinking ????
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I responded to the notion (raised by Santapaws) that the national insurance contributions and income tax paid by public sector workers does not contribute towards health care etc. If this was true what would be the point in public sector workers paying either direct (e.g. income tax) or indirect taxes (e.g. VAT) on their wages? I hope this clarifies things.
 
Anglebracket said:
I responded to the notion (raised by Santapaws) that the national insurance contributions and income tax paid by public sector workers does not contribute towards health care etc. If this was true what would be the point in public sector workers paying either direct (e.g. income tax) or indirect taxes (e.g. VAT) on their wages? I hope this clarifies things.
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There is no point in NI and tax being paid by you. It is an administrative nicety to treat all salaries the same. It makes it easier to advertise your jobs as people can compare with other salaries, and that's about the only benefit. It COSTS the country money to do it, in fact.
 
Anglebracket said:
If the tax contributions of public sector workers don't count towards healthcare, welfare, benefits or pension, does this mean that public sector workers should be exempt from paying VAT, council tax, fuel duty and road tax?
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No, you are paid the amount of money in your salaries, from other people's tax, to enable you to pay them.
 
perfect11s said:
your idea of how economics work is the bulshit that has got us in the mess we are in! money gambling, and goverments fidleing figures, crap and a fail !!!
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Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) was not my idea. It is a theory developed by economists. I can't take credit for it.

I agree that money gambling (assuming you refer to the buying and selling of bad debt) triggered the financial crisis. This has nothing to do with MMT though. It is therefore not clear to me how MMT got us into this mess.
 
Anglebracket said:
This 'fact' is actually not uncontroversial. It does depend on your preferred model of macroeconomics. Proponents of chartalism / modern monetary theory, for example, would argue the opposite.

Either way, the private sector does not create money it only redistributes existing money. The supply of money in the economy is controlled by the central bank. It normally does so by buying and selling government bonds. In exceptional circumstances it creates money through quantitative easing.
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We need to define "money" if you are going to talk on this level.

The privatre sector creates "value". Banks print "money". The two are very different things and far too complex, I think, for this discussion where most people understand what we mean by "money" in relation to paying taxes.
 
Santa Paws said:
There is no point in NI and tax being paid by you. It is an administrative nicety to treat all salaries the same. It makes it easier to advertise your jobs as people can compare with other salaries, and that's about the only benefit. It COSTS the country money to do it, in fact.
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Santa Paws said:
No, you are paid the amount of money in your salaries, from other people's tax, to enable you to pay them.
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So do public sector workers make a contribution towards health care, education etc by paying VAT or don't they?

If yes, why does the same not apply to the income tax that public sector workers pay? Why does the point at which the tax is paid decide whether the contribution is relevant or not?

If the VAT paid by public sector workers does not contribute towards health care etc, why should they pay it?
 
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